ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Samej Jangir]

True
F18 production is going down, on the other hand India need large amount of GE engines for lca, around 300 plus jets, TEDBF around 100 jets and AMCA, around 50 plus jets and SK also need F414 and in future India become second largest major operator of GE f414. GE already made deal with HAL for MRO facility for GE404 engines and next step is = manufacturing of ge f414 with HAL
All these will help GE to play dominant role in both military and civilian markets in India.

What is India's benefit by helping GE grow in India? India does not want MRO or assembly plants. The whole point of having defence equipments is to fight wars. If India can't fight wars unless USA agrees with it, it makes little sense to have defence equipments at all.

Moreover, all of India's planes need 110kN engines and 98kN ones won't cut it. 98kN F414 is a stop gap measure and is impossible to power 17.5ton MWF or 25+ton TEDBF with STOL

 

[Samej Jangir]

Jan 2022

Why is the TWR for AMCA engine mentioned as >10? How is it even practical to have such expectations? Even F135 has just over 10 TWR and that too with counter rotation turbines. Also, Kaveri engine is shown as 72.5kN thrust whereas DRDO says it is 80kN class engine. What is the actual truth?

 

[NutCracker]

Why is the TWR for AMCA engine mentioned as >10? How is it even practical to have such expectations? Even F135 has just over 10 TWR and that too with counter rotation turbines. Also, Kaveri engine is shown as 72.5kN thrust whereas DRDO says it is 80kN class engine. What is the actual truth?

RR EJ200 despite being 30 years old tech, with no further development has 9.2 TWR .

Developing a 135kN engine weighing below 1450 kg is very much plausible if we collaborated with right partner.

 

[Flying Dagger]

ToT mostly refers to the following:

-Transfer of manufacturing and repair manuals, along with training in various processes required to be followed.
-Training of individuals for manufacturing processes (not design knowhow)
-Transfer of tooling as well as help in creating new tooling for manufacturing and repair
-Setting up the assembly line to mimic the processes followed at the OEM
-Regular audits and support for any issues that may arise in any of the processes
-Certification of the new assembly line and processes to follow the same standard as the OEM

None of this is trivial and for some reason almost all jingos call this "screwdriver giri" in a derogatory way. Expecting any more than this is foolhardy because unless the OEM sends its employees and facilities to India for the duration of the next program, there cannot be anything more than this done.

But if this is not done then HAL, IAF and the IN will NOT be able to maintain a large fleet of F-414 equipped Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA Mk1. Just look at the Su-30MKI program to see how many AL-31FP engines HAL has built, overhauled and repaired. It'll be thousand plus overall for a fleet of 270 MKIs. The Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA Mk1 numbers will almost exceed that in total fleet size eventually.

The engine life of FE -414 is much more than the AL 31 we got also its low maintenance in comparison. While the airframe life of Tejas might be around 4000+ flying hours or may be 6 in later batches of mk2.

But yes we will need atleast 500 plus of those with 200+ Tejas and 100 something for AMCA.

CATS warrior can also act as suicide drone and a diversion for enemy AAMs. Also, Tejas has limited payload and high drag which will be exacerbated by CFT

I have a theory that Kaveri will be used for Rafales, not tejas. Uprating engines is not easy as it will require complete redesign. However, 50/78kN engine is perfect for Rafales. Probably this is why India bought rafales in the first place. The additional Rafales will be made in india with Kaveri engines

Again changing goalposts .

What is India's benefit by helping GE grow in India? India does not want MRO or assembly plants. The whole point of having defence equipments is to fight wars. If India can't fight wars unless USA agrees with it, it makes little sense to have defence equipments at all.

Moreover, all of India's planes need 110kN engines and 98kN ones won't cut it. 98kN F414 is a stop gap measure and is impossible to power 17.5ton MWF or 25+ton TEDBF with STOL

Having an American engine doesn't stop India from fighting war. It only comes in the way of export where American fighter jets are also competing or the nation is banned or shadow banned for defence relation by America.

It's just an engine and with local assembly plant we will have enough spares to keep them flying no matter what.

A 110 kn version also available. So, that's solved too.

Offcourse when and if we get our own engine in time we will replace them gradually. Infact we would like to replace those maintenance heavy Sukhoi engines too.


Rd 33 /93 family and Al 31 is outdated in terms of technology by generation. The new Fifth gen engine of Russia is their attempt to catch the gap. FE 414 is top of the line engine we are getting and the reason F404 equipped Tejas was able to perform so good in various IAF excercise.

 

[Azaad]

That is as true of Made in China products too. If a Xiaomi phone has a Samsung AMOLED and a Sony camera sensor then they will be imported from South Korea and Japan- is that a problem?

In this case, GE is talking to its suppliers in Europe to move their production to India- possibly making India a big hub for manufacture and MRO of F414- it is going into F-18, Boramae, QueSST & Gripen E/F besides Mk2/AMCA I/TEDBF.

Also, the 98kN F414 and 120kN AMCA II engines are not totally de-linked.

GE eyes multi-billion dollar engine deal with India for fighter jet programs

While the design of the aircraft manufacturing is rapidly progressing under the AMCA and TEDBF project. Now, the engine manufacturer is promising to provide HAL with the technology. In order to participate in the Indian future fighter lead design manufacture, GE is now prepared to express its...

jetlinemarvel.net

View attachment 207918


swarajyamag.com/economy/india-america-and-energy

View attachment 207922

Do you still think they are discussing the assembling deal from 2010?

If we're indeed going to power the AMCA Mk-2 with a derivative of the GE - 414 then we ought to close the deal with SAFRAN for further development of the Kaveri TFs to get a F-404 equivalent in the next 5 yrs ASAP so that it can clear it's tests & be certified within 5 yrs i.e 2034 .

Further we ought to build in provisions for assistance by SAFRAN for our definitive ACE TFs based on the Kaveri. This is the tricky part though since if the current lot of TFs are the crown jewels of their respective OEMs & countries you can well imagine what their response would be for futuristic tech . Nonetheless try we must though this is one tech we'd have to master in house .

 

[Samej Jangir]

RR EJ200 despite being 30 years old tech, with no further development has 9.2 TWR .

Developing a 135kN engine weighing below 1450 kg is very much plausible if we collaborated with right partner.

No, mere time alone will not magically give technology. There is a saturation limit for everything. EJ200, F414 etc are of similar technology and have similar twr.

 

[Vamsi]

Why is the TWR for AMCA engine mentioned as >10? How is it even practical to have such expectations? Even F135 has just over 10 TWR and that too with counter rotation turbines. Also, Kaveri engine is shown as 72.5kN thrust whereas DRDO says it is 80kN class engine. What is the actual truth?

It did reached 81KN but cannot sustain it, it can sustain only 72.5 KN

 

[Samej Jangir]

Again changing goalposts

Answering to the context is not changing goalpoast. But making one's own propaganda statement just to win arguments is shifting goalpost.

an American engine doesn't stop India from fighting war. It only comes in the way of export where American fighter jets are also competing or the nation is banned or shadow banned for defence relation by America.

It's just an engine and with local assembly plant we will have enough spares to keep them flying no matter what.

A 110 kn version also available. So, that's solved too.

Offcourse when and if we get our own engine in time we will replace them gradually. Infact we would like to replace those maintenance heavy Sukhoi engines too.


Rd 33 /93 family and Al 31 is outdated in terms of technology by generation. The new Fifth gen engine of Russia is their attempt to catch the gap. FE 414 is top of the line engine we are getting and the reason F404 equipped Tejas was able to perform so good in various IAF excercise

How did you conclude that Al31F or RD33 is outdated? Is it because it suits your fantasy? Why do you think F16 still runs on F100 engines as it is similar to Al31 in technology?
Al31 has lower overhaul life but it is much easier to mass manufacture, easier to maintain, is robust in terms of abilities to take bird ingestion etc. These are trade offs for TBO & durability. Wars don't need high TBO as planes get damaged snd hit regularly. You would be lucky if a plane can fly for 1000 hours before needing maintenance. The high TBO is only good for peacetime patrolling, airshows etc. Looking at a defence equipment in terms if peacetime longevity is ridiculous.

As for availability of spares, local assembly doesn't help as most spares are critical technology which will not be made in India. So the spare parts won't be available when needed. This defeats the whole point of having engines. It is better for india to use Su30s eith india made engine rather than MWF / AMCA as Su30 is guaranteed to work anytime while that is not the case with American engines.

 

[NutCracker]

No, mere time alone will not magically give technology. There is a saturation limit for everything. EJ200, F414 etc are of similar technology and have similar twr.

Its not magic its technological evolution. I am not saying it will achieve 135kN with 1000kg only.

ven F135 has just over 10 TWR

Also F135 does not have "just above 10 TWR" , it has fukin 11.5 augmented ( means 11 is very much plausible) , while they officially claim thrust above 40K lbf with 3700lb weight ,
Russia with Izdeliye 30 will also easily cross 10:1 . RR just didn't have any motive to improve once whole europe was on F35 bandwagon, but they still have expertise to produce TWR above 10.

 

[MonaLazy]

If we're indeed going to power the AMCA Mk-2 with a derivative of the GE - 414 then we ought to close the deal with SAFRAN for further development of the Kaveri TFs to get a F-404 equivalent in the next 5 yrs ASAP so that it can clear it's tests & be certified within 5 yrs i.e 2034 .

Currently, Kaveri is 51/75KN at 1235Kg, F404 is 49/79KN at 1035Kg. Just a question of losing 200 kgs more- wonder how long that will take- but what is quite worrying is the life of hot parts- only 500h. They will need quite a bit of new materials to improve its durability.

So the current version is good for testing only- not for operational deployment. But we are still making the most of it- they will fly it in a Tejas.

Exclusive | Indigenous Engine of Tejas on Its Way: ADE Director at DRDO Who Worked on LCA for 25 Years - News18

Indigenous content is very important for Atmanirbhar Bharat, Y Dilip told News18 at the Aero India 2023 in Bengaluru

www.news18.com

Very soon in DRDO speak could mean anything up to 2025!

Safran is helping on the dry kaveri which is the same engine minus A/B, & with a new fan. There is scope to uprate this to 60/90kN with A/B.

Further we ought to build in provisions for assistance by SAFRAN for our definitive ACE TFs based on the Kaveri. This is the tricky part though since if the current lot of TFs are the crown jewels of their respective OEMs & countries you can well imagine what their response would be for futuristic tech . Nonetheless try we must though this is one tech we'd have to master in house .

Even theoretically they will give us ACEs only after they themselves invent it!

 

[MonaLazy]

Here's some more dope on where Kaveri+Tejas is headed

Indigenous combat jets and Kaveri turbofan engine: All About IAF's new aerospace plan

As the deal to procure 114 foreign fighter jets (dubbed as MMRCA 2.0) progresses, simultaneous efforts are also being made towards acquisition of indigenous fighter aircrafts for filling up the gaps.

www.indiatoday.in

 

[Azaad]

Here's some more dope on where Kaveri+Tejas is headed

Indigenous combat jets and Kaveri turbofan engine: All About IAF's new aerospace plan

As the deal to procure 114 foreign fighter jets (dubbed as MMRCA 2.0) progresses, simultaneous efforts are also being made towards acquisition of indigenous fighter aircrafts for filling up the gaps.

www.indiatoday.in

View attachment 208015

I think you've linked it here before. Some parts of this report is truly incredible which makes believing this reporter a bit difficult.

 

[MonaLazy]

believing this reporter a bit difficult.

True but that PV-1 will fly Kaveri has been confirmed by multiple sources- from the horse's mouth- including a recent ex-Dir of GTRE and Dr Tessy Thomas in an interview I also posted some time back. So it is happening for sure.

 

[Azaad]

Even theoretically they will give us ACEs only after they themselves invent it!

Was thinking in terms of co development rather. It's a long shot for sure & I'm more than confident we won't find a seat at the table. Btw why're we discussing the Kaveri & other TF programs India's undertaking or reviewing on this thread & not the Kaveri thread.

 

[Vamsi]

True but that PV-1 will fly Kaveri has been confirmed by multiple sources- from the horse's mouth- including a recent ex-Dir of GTRE and Dr Tessy Thomas in an interview I also posted some time back. So it is happening for sure.

They are asking for PV-1 since 2019 atleast

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Better to use a second hand 4 engined IL-76 or Airbus 330 or Boeing 747 to fly Kaveri. Or fly it in unmanned LCA or UCAV

Second hand 4 engined flightworthy aircraft would be available for $20-30 million or so.

The reason second hand 4 engine commercial aircraft are so cheap is that their fuel consumption rate increases. Due to high fuel consumption, they are not suitable for commercial use as a commercial aircraft flies Almost 5000 hours in a year On the other hand, a test aircraft will fly only around 200 to 300 hours a year.
And there is another factor of demand and supply because there are hundreds of +2nd hand, four engine commercial aircraft available on market, but there are hardly any buyers

 

[MonaLazy]

Second hand 4 engined flightworthy aircraft would be available for $20-30 million or so.

But PV-1 is free. You can put an experimental engine in a proven airframe which the Tejas is now.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

But PV-1 is free. You can put an experimental engine in a proven airframe which the Tejas is now.

Usually not the best idea to put trial engine in single engine fighter.... If it fails and crashes, Import lobby will never let public forget how its the worst engine ever made.

 

[Azaad]

But PV-1 is free. You can put an experimental engine in a proven airframe which the Tejas is now.

Funds?

 

[MonaLazy]

Usually not the best idea to put trial engine in single engine fighter.... If it fails and crashes, Import lobby will never let public forget how its the worst engine ever made.

True but they will go slow on the testing - expanding the envelope slowly starting from ground runs. Slow and persistent are the hallmarks of Tejas & Kaveri.