ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Gyyan]

Truth is we don't have funds for MRFA even if it somehow happens it will be at the cost of other programs.
The utterly dreadful thing would be pak acquiring a Chinese or Turkish FGFA just after the MRFA is signed for a fourth gen fighter.

 

[abingdonboy]

I am not denying that 4.5++ gen fighters will be irrelevant in near future. We have already depleting squadrons and enemy is increasing his strength. How many years do you think our Airforce need to wait for mk2 when enemy is sitting at the border.

CCS sanction came less than 6 months ago, if IAF expected the first operational MK.2 before 2031 then i have a bridge to sell them…..

do we really think that the people inside the system aren’t having these discussions regularly? Is there not an IAF project team inside ADA? Do they not report to their HQ? I know the IAF’s favourite passtime is to throw ADA/HAL under the bus and demand imports but let’s not merrily go along with it.

if It was up to the IAF the only fighter jet they’ll be getting from now to 2030 (LCA MK1A) wouldn’t even exist. They are the ones that turned down ordering another 36 Rafales and insisted on 114 MRFA, they are the ones that have been twiddling with the LCA MK.2 requirements and numbers for years. They are the ones that are yet to issue even an RFP for MRFA

Their strategy of putting a loaded gun to their head and threatening to pull the trigger if their import demands aren’t met seems to be coming along nicely

 

[abingdonboy]

Truth is we don't have funds for MRFA even if it somehow happens it will be at the cost of other programs.
The utterly dreadful thing would be pak acquiring a Chinese or Turkish FGFA just after the MRFA is signed for a fourth gen fighter.

MRFA isn’t happening but let’s not fall into this narrative that a 5th gen fighter trumps a 4th gen fighter just by existing. Aerial warfare is an incredibly dynamic and variable domain and not all ‘5th gen’ aircraft are equal. China/Korea/Turkey declaring something 5th gen doesn’t make it a super weapon. There are many features the Rafale has that perhaps only the F35 could conceivably have this within the next 15 years.

5th gen is marketing

 

[Gyyan]

CCS sanction came less than 6 months ago, if IAF expected the first operational MK.2 before 2031 then i have a bridge to sell them…..

do we really think that the people inside the system aren’t having these discussions regularly? Is there not an IAF project team inside ADA? Do they not report to their HQ? I know the IAF’s favourite passtime is to throw ADA/HAL under the bus and demand imports but let’s not merrily go along with it.

if It was up to the IAF the only fighter jet they’ll be getting from now to 2030 (LCA MK1A) wouldn’t even exist. They are the ones that turned down ordering another 36 Rafales and insisted on 114 MRFA, they are the ones that have been twiddling with the LCA MK.2 requirements and numbers for years. They are the ones that are yet to issue even an RFP for MRFA

Their strategy of putting a loaded gun to their head and threatening to pull the trigger if their import demands aren’t met seems to be coming along nicely

And ADA shouldnt be blamed for bogus timelines?
Even if it's true what what were devlopers doing when they said the project will be ready by dec 2022 and then 2023 and finally 2025-26 to misguide us normies who don't know shit if yes then why?
What was the 2023 timeline and for what?
Every monday these guys increase the timeline by a year.
I remember there were reports of Mk2 prototype being worked on with mk1A's money and there were a few statements that mk2 will be ready within 1-2 years or something like that.

 

[Gyyan]

MRFA isn’t happening but let’s not fall into this narrative that a 5th gen fighter trumps a 4th gen fighter just by existing. Aerial warfare is an incredibly dynamic and variable domain and not all ‘5th gen’ aircraft are equal. China/Korea/Turkey declaring something 5th gen doesn’t make it a super weapon. There are many features the Rafale has that perhaps only the F35 could conceivably have this within the next 15 years.

5th gen is marketing

5th gen is marketing then why are we so focused on AMCA lets give mk2 the same capability and be done with what's the point of having multiple platforms if the purpose of one is just marketing why is the rest of the world salivating for it if it's just marketing yes I agree aerial warfare is incredibly dynamic and 5th gen isn't magic but it give a huge edge.
And this one's out of curiosity "There are many features the Rafale has that perhaps only the F35 could conceivably have this within the next 15 years." What does this mean?

 

[johnj]

GoI fix the delay of mk2 by ordering additional 36 rafale f4 and more mk1a/b. Now the good news is HAL can start manufacturing mk2 prototype, its a great achievement considering MoD snail process. 70% of delay caused by MoD bureaucrats, rest by divide and rule policy and a small percentage by armed forces. Once prototype is delivered ADA can fast track its process and HAL can start manufacturing ioc after 6~7 years iff there is no major issue with aircraft and CCS increase their speed, means mass production only starts after 2035 iff there is no major issue with aircraft. RFI to CCS is a very long process, and in the case of local items, need more time due multiple org involvement.
Meanwhile mk1 gets new spj, new aam including meteor class, ccm, cruise missile etc, etc, EOTS pod etc. CATS, new stimulators etc. IMRH is a HAL project, and need special order from MoD unlike lch, luh or cats.

 

[silverghost]

Aj se hum vi dalali karenge foren mal ki ...a 1 year delay was acceptable this just isnt

It's a very perceptive comment. IAF should buy whatever it needs in whatever numbers to keep the country safe. Let ADA/HAL continue on its trajectory to develop Mk2 when the fighter jet is ready in whatever year they can explore which markets are available for their products.

 

[Gyyan]

It's a very perceptive comment. IAF should buy whatever it needs in whatever numbers to keep the country safe. Let ADA/HAL continue on its trajectory to develop Mk2 when the fighter jet is ready in whatever year they can explore which markets are available for their products.

And if there is no market billions down the drain?

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

No money=no honey.

this is the crux of the issue and all this crying is redundant in the face of this, there’s no point in arguing/debating about ADA/HAL capacity when the orders aren’t there

AMCA, IMRH, MRFA etc are just pipe dreams without serious capital outlays upfront hence why the can gets kicked down the road year after year. I still remember the AWACS(I) going to CCS in 2018 and not a peep was heard after that, then NETRA MK.2 (the cheap option) emerged out of nowhere

+ we are talking about this elsewhere but please get the idea that MRFA/additional Rafale are a quick fix out of your head-not even an RFP exists for MRFA, once it’s issued it’ll be 2-3 years before trails are complete and reports sent to MoD, another year for these to be assessed (the IN sent the results of the MRCBF STBF trails in early 2022 to the MoD almost a year ago now and still silence), only THEN does L1 get declared and negotiations with the OEM begin. Considering the complexity of these things and how Indian babudom works that will last a minimum of 5 years, then a 3 year delivery date after that, what’s that…..11 years? So RFP is issued in 2023, 1st delivery in 2034, final in the early 2040s?

Cancel MRFA and go with G2G orders for more Rafales and be done with it. It’s expected 26 Rafale M for carriers. Place the orders along with it and be done with this drama is my suggestion.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I can bet iaf will never retire jags or mig-29
Never before 2035
All those statements are to pressurize govt for mrfa which is not bad
But I bet mig-29 and jag aren't going anywhere until 2035

And have our pilots killed in Migs 29, chetak or cheetah till then… Niceeeeeeeee…
The older Jags which were not part of upgrade will be retired. They expect 3 upgraded Jags Sq platform till 2035 or even more. We got the latest jags just after year 2000.

But remember Migs we’re bought at end of 1980’s. From 1990 to 2030 it’s like 40 years. We are pushing its life.

 

[Gyyan]

Worst thing about our programs is we have a lot on our plate and everything is getting delayed
Our needs
Awacs refuelers
Fighter jets 4.5gen and 5th gen naval 4.5th gen
The drone programs
CATS
Ghatak
Tia tv 50(if it exists)
Tapas bhi baad hi me aayega
Plus the su 30 upgrades bhai sb to future me hi hoga sb delay bhi hoga.

 

[jai jaganath]

And have our pilots killed in Migs 29, chetak or cheetah till then… Niceeeeeeeee…
The older Jags which were not part of upgrade will be retired. They expect 3 upgraded Jags Sq platform till 2035 or even more. We got the latest jags just after year 2000.

But remember Migs we’re bought at end of 1980’s. From 1990 to 2030 it’s like 40 years. We are pushing its life.

Yes bro it's gonna happen like that
Just like case of mig-21
They have no other choice they won't retire if they won't get any replacement
We can see this in case of mk1 and mk1a

 

[jai jaganath]

CCS sanction came less than 6 months ago, if IAF expected the first operational MK.2 before 2031 then i have a bridge to sell them…..

do we really think that the people inside the system aren’t having these discussions regularly? Is there not an IAF project team inside ADA? Do they not report to their HQ? I know the IAF’s favourite passtime is to throw ADA/HAL under the bus and demand imports but let’s not merrily go along with it.

if It was up to the IAF the only fighter jet they’ll be getting from now to 2030 (LCA MK1A) wouldn’t even exist. They are the ones that turned down ordering another 36 Rafales and insisted on 114 MRFA, they are the ones that have been twiddling with the LCA MK.2 requirements and numbers for years. They are the ones that are yet to issue even an RFP for MRFA

Their strategy of putting a loaded gun to their head and threatening to pull the trigger if their import demands aren’t met seems to be coming along nicely

I agree to everything
But why were the heads and directors were giving such timelines in media when they themselves knew regarding the criticality
They were also saying that construction has started before ccs approval if I am not wrong
Leave the above point but timelines were given by them they should been responsible when interacting with media

 

[silverghost]

I can bet iaf will never retire jags or mig-29
Never before 2035
All those statements are to pressurize govt for mrfa which is not bad
But I bet mig-29 and jag aren't going anywhere until 2035

Mig 29 may be Ok, but Jaguar even today flies because the earth is curved (as per IAF pilots). By 2035 they will have to add at least two propellers to get it airborne.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Those who think Rafales will be delivered 3 years from date of contract signature, let me tell you something:-
As of 2023, Dassault has 200 internal and export orders for Rafale to fulfill.
The current production rate is 24 jets/yr and is expected to rise to 36 jets/yr only by 2025.
Its not the case that France will allocate half of its production capacity specifically for India, at best Dassault can produce 2-3 Rafale jets/yr specifically for India, nothing more than that.
The worst case scenario is that any Rafale orders placed by India either this year or the following one won't be fulfilled until 2029-30.

 

[NeXoft007]

Those who think Rafales will be delivered 3 years from date of contract signature, let me tell you something:-
As of 2023, Dassault has 200 internal and export orders for Rafale to fulfill.
The current production rate is 24 jets/yr and is expected to rise to 36 jets/yr only by 2025.
Its not the case that France will allocate half of its production capacity specifically for India, at best Dassault can produce 2-3 Rafale jets/yr specifically for India, nothing more than that.
The worst case scenario is that any Rafale orders placed by India either this year or the following one won't be fulfilled until 2029-30.

Dassault also needs to do MLU of their old Rafales to F4 and F5 standard. Rafale F4 production will happen in India with a dedicated MRO facility. The production plant could be later used to produce TEDBF.

 

[abingdonboy]

Those who think Rafales will be delivered 3 years from date of contract signature, let me tell you something:-
As of 2023, Dassault has 200 internal and export orders for Rafale to fulfill.
The current production rate is 24 jets/yr and is expected to rise to 36 jets/yr only by 2025.
Its not the case that France will allocate half of its production capacity specifically for India, at best Dassault can produce 2-3 Rafale jets/yr specifically for India, nothing more than that.
The worst case scenario is that any Rafale orders placed by India either this year or the following one won't be fulfilled until 2029-30.

This is a non issue imho, Dassualt will abide by the terms of the contract, that’s it. How they do it is their issue

 

[skunk works]

ADA was talking bs like the work on first aircraft was being done using LCA 's money.
Someone should be held responsible for giving out bogus timelines if nothing else.

Exactly, these misleading timelines did not come from nowhere. There has 100% been over promising going on.

 

[skunk works]

I agree to everything
But why were the heads and directors were giving such timelines in media when they themselves knew regarding the criticality
They were also saying that construction has started before ccs approval if I am not wrong
Leave the above point but timelines were given by them they should been responsible when interacting with media

It's obvious they have no idea what they are talking about. It's embarrassing. Western projects have delays too, but in new cutting edge products- not in legacy technologies.

 

[The Shrike]

I'm so black pilled i can only lol at the cope and seethe here - this is an unmitigated disaster that will show up in India's air power in the decades ahead. And we can expect other major projects like AMCA, TEDBF etc to go the same route. I hope noobs will now stop getting a hardon looking at CGI models and completely worth less comments from various stakeholders, and start asking for the receipts for actual money allocated and spent. Delivery (and any issues related to delivery) only comes after that.