ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Rajaraja Chola]

Look like TEDBF will fly before MK-2

TEDBF isn’t even approved. ADA will give livable timelines and scientists are now acting similar to bureaucrats. Seems they love media attention.

and when actual ccs clearance is given, they will say 36 months from signing date

Next is AMCA CCS clearance. TEDBF hasn’t even gotten to CDR approval stage yet.

 

[jai jaganath]

I would suggest to go just 10 pages back and see the timelines given by ADA/HAL chairman. Even when CCS approved it, news came in, prototype started, landing gears delivered, FBW completed and roll out by Dec 2023.

Now official dates are given. Thing is what can we do? Average voting public doesn’t care about meeting deadline in such projects nor does our GoI routinely gives out jumlas in name of AoN, RFI etc circus.

IAF has been steadfast in MRFA and people have been vociferous in killing MRFA cos Tejas Mk2 was supposed to come in by 2027-28. Now IAF has been proven right that ADA and HAL teams are just mouth losers. MRFA now must proceed in earnest.

India will loose 3 Mig21 and probably 2 older Jags squadron before 2026. Our Squadron strength will go down to 27-28.

@abingdonboy seems IAF is proved right after all

Yeah I had the exact reservation with your first para
News was popping like this delivered that delivered
Expected timeline for delivery of few parts in production variant
It seemed too positive as things were going
Even the sources indicated that prototype construction has already started by hal before cdr approval
This we got fooled by news rather believing in conscripts
But we must now understand these independent sources were just giving false updates like prototype has started before approval fsed-2 being used and all were just for views that's it

 

[Gyyan]

Yeah I had the exact reservation with your first para
News was popping like this delivered that delivered
Expected timeline for delivery of few parts in production variant
It seemed too positive as things were going
Even the sources indicated that prototype construction has already started by hal before cdr approval
This we got fooled by news rather believing in conscripts
But we must now understand these independent sources were just giving false updates like prototype has started before approval fsed-2 being used and all were just for views that's it

ADA was talking bs like the work on first aircraft was being done using LCA 's money.
Someone should be held responsible for giving out bogus timelines if nothing else.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

I would suggest to go just 10 pages back and see the timelines given by ADA/HAL chairman. Even when CCS approved it, news came in, prototype started, landing gears delivered, FBW completed and roll out by Dec 2023.

Now official dates are given. Thing is what can we do? Average voting public doesn’t care about meeting deadline in such projects nor does our GoI routinely gives out jumlas in name of AoN, RFI etc circus.

IAF has been steadfast in MRFA and people have been vociferous in killing MRFA cos Tejas Mk2 was supposed to come in by 2027-28. Now IAF has been proven right that ADA and HAL teams are just mouth losers. MRFA now must proceed in earnest.

India will loose 3 Mig21 and probably 2 older Jags squadron before 2026. Our Squadron strength will go down to 27-28.

@abingdonboy seems IAF is proved right after all

With or without Tejas Mk2, MRFA will still remain unfeasible, lets be atleast a bit realistic, since IAF isn't that there is simply no way a $30 billion procurement can be financed without sacrificing equally important projects like Tejas Mk2, AMCA, Refuellers, ISTAR, ASOJ, Air Defence squadrons, AWACS, etc.

 

[jai jaganath]

With or without Tejas Mk2, MRFA will still remain unfeasible, lets be atleast a bit realistic, since IAF isn't that there is simply no way a $30 billion procurement can be financed without sacrificing equally important projects like Tejas Mk2, AMCA, Refuellers, ISTAR, ASOJ, Air Defence squadrons, AWACS, etc.

So ordering 5 more mk1a squadron will help in stabilizing the situation?

 

[NutCracker]

So ordering 5 more mk1a squadron will help in stabilizing the situation?

Yes, that and speeding up the Upgradation of Su30 EW and installation of AESA radar.

 

[Tridev123]

We are again hearing voices advocating the scrapping of the whole LCA mk2 programme and shifting the focus completely on the AMCA.

One repeated argument is that the LCA mk2 when it arrives would be at its best be a 4.5 generation aircraft. And 5th generation enemy aircraft would make it irrelevant.

But the people who slam the LCA mk2 and probably have an orgasm if it is indeed dumped would later be the first to push the F16 Block 70 and the Gripen E for induction into the IAF.

The scrapping of the LCA mk2 would only benefit the import lobby in India and the foreign aerospace giants.

This is not to say that we should not criticise the ADA and HAL or whoever else is responsible for the repeated delays and shifting of the time lines. Fix responsibility and even make heads roll.

For those who say that the AMCA is the panacea for all the ills plaguing the LCA mk2. At least there is some degree of commonality between the LCA mk1 and LCA mk2. Making the development process easier. Whereas the AMCA is a completely new design and concept. What guarantee is there that it will be a trouble free development. The truth is that the AMCA is certainly more challenging technically than the LCA mk2. If we cannot succeed in the LCA mk2 programme an 4.5gen aircraft, what are our chances in creating an 5th generation aircraft within the cost and time estimates.

We need to redouble our efforts to make the LCA mk2 succeed. The Government should identify the bottlenecks and clear the path.

The revival of the IJT Sitara aircraft programme should provide motivation to aerospace enthusiasts. An plane which was written off by even the IAF and many others has been resurrected. The necessary modifications were made and validated.

There is no need to get demoralised.

The twin engine Rafale is not replacing the LCA mk2. It is in a totally different category.The Chinese threat probably warrants its import. But I believe the Rafale should be our last major import of fighter aircraft.

We have a long way to go to achieve complete self sufficiency in aerospace technology. But we must persevere and show faith in our indigenous efforts. There are no short cuts available.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

So ordering 5 more mk1a squadron will help in stabilizing the situation?

A follow-on deal for another 90-100 Tejas Mk1A will not cost more than $5 billion since spares & maintenance, ground support and handling equipment, ADA consultancy charges, training and simulators has already been accounted for in the original 83 Mk1A deal.

 

[abingdonboy]

I would suggest to go just 10 pages back and see the timelines given by ADA/HAL chairman. Even when CCS approved it, news came in, prototype started, landing gears delivered, FBW completed and roll out by Dec 2023.

Now official dates are given. Thing is what can we do? Average voting public doesn’t care about meeting deadline in such projects nor does our GoI routinely gives out jumlas in name of AoN, RFI etc circus.

IAF has been steadfast in MRFA and people have been vociferous in killing MRFA cos Tejas Mk2 was supposed to come in by 2027-28. Now IAF has been proven right that ADA and HAL teams are just mouth losers. MRFA now must proceed in earnest.

India will loose 3 Mig21 and probably 2 older Jags squadron before 2026. Our Squadron strength will go down to 27-28.

@abingdonboy seems IAF is proved right after all

The thing is HAL’s timeline is realistic, CCS approval was given in late 2022, it was unrealistic to expect major milestones within weeks/months/1-2 years.

ADA have again fallen into the trap of talking absolute nonsense and giving utterly impossible timelines, now the MK.2 will be judged as failed/late based purely on their own utterances.

MK.2’s timelines were always incredibly optimistic- 3 years of flight testing, 5-6th year production ready is almost unprecedented in any aviation project.

The development isn’t the issue it’s starting so late, why did CCS not sanction/fund this 2 years ago? Why were the IAF continually making changes after the PDR stage? T0+ is the issue, if T0 was early 2020 we’d all be talking a very different tune.

~2030-1 production starting for the MK.2 would be an incredible achievement considering it only got official sanction in 2022 but that leaves the question of what the IAF does with its declining strength this decade


MRFA is absolutely not happening, even if the RFP comes this year as some have hoped for the T0—> delivery with RFP being T0 would be over a decade

Not ordering more LCA MK1A is looking like another bonehead decision from IAF borne out of their brochure specs and typical perfect being the enemy of good enough attitudes

lessons need to be learned for TEDBF and AMCA so the sanction is given early but of course we know they won’t be, where’s the AMCA/IMRH SPVs? Everything they say will be done within the next 1-2 years seems to take about 10

 

[abingdonboy]

TEDBF isn’t even approved. ADA will give livable timelines and scientists are now acting similar to bureaucrats. Seems they love media attention.

and when actual ccs clearance is given, they will say 36 months from signing date

Next is AMCA CCS clearance. TEDBF hasn’t even gotten to CDR approval stage yet.

As usual india has the worst of both worlds- the socialist production/development entities but Western policy making. No work can begin in earnest until a top down edict is given bit when it is given that’s onto when the PSUs get to work

in the West private companies have their own revenue streams and aren’t dictated to from a government entity how to organise their work, so in many cases they’ll do the R&D in expectation of a requirement emerging, then when the actual mandate if given from the government they are already ready to deliver in short time

in india it’s the reverse- the work only starts once the mandate is given, on top of that there’s far less financial support or commitments given. Just the worst of all possible worlds

 

[sakalasiva]

Well if this is true then we can park any discussion here for another 3 years. As nothing going happen before that. Hail Indian defense stake holders pointing fingers at each other's and dragging things so late that we will start questioning is it really required now.

 

[abingdonboy]

Well if this is true then we can park any discussion here for another 3 years. As nothing going happen before that. Hail Indian defense stake holders pointing fingers at each other's and dragging things so late that we will start questioning is it really required now.

‘If it’s really required’

what’s the alternative? Are you going to order 200 F35 (including >20 year unmet demand for MMRCA)? 200 Rafale? 300 AMCA (including initial projected requirement of ~100)?

4.5+ gen fighters are not going anywhere. 5th/6tH gen fighters are niche that will be used as door kickers on day1 of a peer to peer conflict but for a high intensity airforce of a large country you can’t have a high % of your airforce be these specialist machines- India isn’t the U.K. of Norway.

Even USAF will have 1000s of 4+ gen fighters in service for at least another 30 years.

Stop crying and be practical everyone

 

[DeadCritic]

Few news articles are so contradictory to each other in regard to MK2.
a few days back one news say: HAL only start delivering MK2 with only 5-6 weapons integrations and the rest will be done on the squadron level.
This approach is taken to fast-track production from 28-29.

and now we hear no rollout until the 25, first flight in 26-27 which means production will start around 31-32.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

The thing is HAL’s timeline is realistic, CCS approval was given in late 2022, it was unrealistic to expect major milestones within weeks/months/1-2 years.

ADA have again fallen into the trap of talking absolute nonsense and giving utterly impossible timelines, now the MK.2 will be judged as failed/late based purely on their own utterances.

MK.2’s timelines were always incredibly optimistic- 3 years of flight testing, 5-6th year production ready is almost unprecedented in any aviation project.

The development isn’t the issue it’s starting so late, why did CCS not sanction/fund this 2 years ago? Why were the IAF continually making changes after the PDR stage? T0+ is the issue, if T0 was early 2020 we’d all be talking a very different tune.

~2030-1 production starting for the MK.2 would be an incredible achievement considering it only got official sanction in 2022 but that leaves the question of what the IAF does with its declining strength this decade


MRFA is absolutely not happening, even if the RFP comes this year as some have hoped for the T0—> delivery with RFP being T0 would be over a decade

Not ordering more LCA MK1A is looking like another bonehead decision from IAF borne out of their brochure specs and typical perfect being the enemy of good enough attitudes

lessons need to be learned for TEDBF and AMCA so the sanction is given early but of course we know they won’t be, where’s the AMCA/IMRH SPVs? Everything they say will be done within the next 1-2 years seems to take about 10

This is purely bad management. Even if Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA gets CCS sanction, does ADA have the manpower to work simultaneously on all 3 projects? Let’s assume AMCA timeline is similar to mk2, Hal needs to have production facilities for both and GoI still have to spend Billions buying both ac at the same time. It’s still going to cost GoI a bomb pushing every induction for later.

And No. MRFA first ac has to be delivered 3 years after contract signing, by MRFA I mean 72 Rafales and not 114 ones through a tender. Right now we are looking at no ac induction from 27-31/32. And we would retire Mig 21, Mig 29, older Jags in that timeframe.

Our squadron strength would be 15 Su, 6 Tejas mk1, 3 Jag, 1 Mig29 , 3 M2000 by 2030. Godforbid we get into a war with Chinese in the Himalayas, our IAF would be meat.

Add to that 4B just to update 80 Sukhois. Do you see the problem? GoI is pushing down projects down the road for the lack of money today. GoI have been doing this since 2004.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Saurav jha said in today's live steam that there must be some miscommunication so wait for aero india

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Saurav jha said in today's live steam that there must be some miscommunication so wait for aero india

I don’t think so. For the first time, Hal CMD has been honest. It’s the most “possible” timeline. Even 8-9 years is aggressive.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

I don’t think so. For the first time, Hal CMD has been honest. It’s the most “possible” timeline. Even 8-9 years is aggressive.

We just have to wait for 12-17 days to know what's gonna happen let me have my copium man

 

[jai jaganath]

This is purely bad management. Even if Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA gets CCS sanction, does ADA have the manpower to work simultaneously on all 3 projects? Let’s assume AMCA timeline is similar to mk2, Hal needs to have production facilities for both and GoI still have to spend Billions buying both ac at the same time. It’s still going to cost GoI a bomb pushing every induction for later.

And No. MRFA first ac has to be delivered 3 years after contract signing, by MRFA I mean 72 Rafales and not 114 ones through a tender. Right now we are looking at no ac induction from 27-31/32. And we would retire Mig 21, Mig 29, older Jags in that timeframe.

Our squadron strength would be 15 Su, 6 Tejas mk1, 3 Jag, 1 Mig29 , 3 M2000 by 2030. Godforbid we get into a war with Chinese in the Himalayas, our IAF would be meat.

Add to that 4B just to update 80 Sukhois. Do you see the problem? GoI is pushing down projects down the road for the lack of money today. GoI have been doing this since 2004.

I can bet iaf will never retire jags or mig-29
Never before 2035
All those statements are to pressurize govt for mrfa which is not bad
But I bet mig-29 and jag aren't going anywhere until 2035

 

[abingdonboy]

This is purely bad management. Even if Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA gets CCS sanction, does ADA have the manpower to work simultaneously on all 3 projects? Let’s assume AMCA timeline is similar to mk2, Hal needs to have production facilities for both and GoI still have to spend Billions buying both ac at the same time. It’s still going to cost GoI a bomb pushing every induction for later.

And No. MRFA first ac has to be delivered 3 years after contract signing, by MRFA I mean 72 Rafales and not 114 ones through a tender. Right now we are looking at no ac induction from 27-31/32. And we would retire Mig 21, Mig 29, older Jags in that timeframe.

Our squadron strength would be 15 Su, 6 Tejas mk1, 3 Jag, 1 Mig29 , 3 M2000 by 2030. Godforbid we get into a war with Chinese in the Himalayas, our IAF would be meat.

Add to that 4B just to update 80 Sukhois. Do you see the problem? GoI is pushing down projects down the road for the lack of money today. GoI have been doing this since 2004.

No money=no honey.

this is the crux of the issue and all this crying is redundant in the face of this, there’s no point in arguing/debating about ADA/HAL capacity when the orders aren’t there

AMCA, IMRH, MRFA etc are just pipe dreams without serious capital outlays upfront hence why the can gets kicked down the road year after year. I still remember the AWACS(I) going to CCS in 2018 and not a peep was heard after that, then NETRA MK.2 (the cheap option) emerged out of nowhere

+ we are talking about this elsewhere but please get the idea that MRFA/additional Rafale are a quick fix out of your head-not even an RFP exists for MRFA, once it’s issued it’ll be 2-3 years before trails are complete and reports sent to MoD, another year for these to be assessed (the IN sent the results of the MRCBF STBF trails in early 2022 to the MoD almost a year ago now and still silence), only THEN does L1 get declared and negotiations with the OEM begin. Considering the complexity of these things and how Indian babudom works that will last a minimum of 5 years, then a 3 year delivery date after that, what’s that…..11 years? So RFP is issued in 2023, 1st delivery in 2034, final in the early 2040s?

 

[sakalasiva]

‘If it’s really required’

what’s the alternative? Are you going to order 200 F35 (including >20 year unmet demand for MMRCA)? 200 Rafale? 300 AMCA (including initial projected requirement of ~100)?

4.5+ gen fighters are not going anywhere. 5th/6tH gen fighters are niche that will be used as door kickers on day1 of a peer to peer conflict but for a high intensity airforce of a large country you can’t have a high % of your airforce be these specialist machines- India isn’t the U.K. of Norway.

Even USAF will have 1000s of 4+ gen fighters in service for at least another 30 years.

Stop crying and be practical everyone

I am not denying that 4.5++ gen fighters will be irrelevant in near future. We have already depleting squadrons and enemy is increasing his strength. How many years do you think our Airforce need to wait for mk2 when enemy is sitting at the border.