ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[johnj]

What you are proposing is very good for reading, but can't be possible.

My bad, but truth is not so sweet.
[Excluding mmrca]IAF consider buying mk2 mwf until AMCA mk1 achieve foc and consider AMCA mk2 in large nos and maybe 6th gen from EU. IAF already made decision to buy 80 plus mk2 lca, and 90 ge engine is a done deal, with local assembling. I'm adding 60 plus extra tejas mk2 considering ADA/HAL history.
Going back[1 decade plus], 126 to 180 mmrca, <250 fgfa -- 144 fgfa>, 200 amca, 40 lca, 80 plus lca mk2.
Good thing is IAF placed order for 83 lca mk1a.

 

[The Mimic]

Going back[1 decade plus], 126 to 180 mmrca, <250 fgfa -- 144 fgfa>, 200 amca, 40 lca, 80 plus lca mk2.
Good thing is IAF placed order for 83 lca mk1a.

You are saying 200 AMCAs and 80+ Tejas Mk.2s.

I am saying 140 AMCAs and 270 Tejas Mk.2s.

Huge difference.

 

[johnj]

You are saying 200 AMCAs and 80+ Tejas Mk.2s.

I am saying 140 AMCAs and 270 Tejas Mk.2s.

Huge difference.

200 AMCAs and 80+ Tejas Mk.2s. is IAF saying not mine, my saying 300 AMCA and 150 Tejas Mk.2s. vs 140 AMCAs and 270 Tejas Mk.2s. your saying, and ofcourse its huge difference.
270 Tejas Mk.2s is possible, considering 11/15 years production, delay in mmrca, amca etc

 

[The Mimic]

200 AMCAs and 80+ Tejas Mk.2s. is IAF saying not mine, my saying 300 AMCA and 150 Tejas Mk.2s. vs 140 AMCAs and 270 Tejas Mk.2s. your saying, and ofcourse its huge difference.
270 Tejas Mk.2s is possible, considering 11/15 years production, delay in mmrca, amca etc

Give me the source for 200 AMCAs as per IAF.

 

[johnj]

Give me the source for 200 AMCAs as per IAF.

Can't becz its too old data, may be 1 decade or more old, but
from wiki

 

[The Mimic]

Can't becz its too old data, may be 1 decade or more old, but
from wiki

1 decade old number is not applicable at present. They estimated FGFA to be around 120 million dollar, because it is no where stealthy enough compared to F-22. That's why they ordered in huge quantity first.

 

[johnj]

1 decade old number is not applicable at present. They estimated FGFA to be around 120 million dollar, because it is no where stealthy enough compared to F-22. That's why they ordered in huge quantity first.

No, less than 100 million dollars, when reached 100 million unit price, it numbers goes down from 250 to 144, and main issue is two little tech from indian side, and russian not allowing access to su 57 pgrm and tech and eventually iaf cancelled fgfa favouring mmrca, some article says 50 to 70 million a unit. IAF needed multi billion mmrca then and now, rest were interim solutions, and amca current req is 5+2 sqn.
mmrca - 150, fgfa -144[cancelled/buy once it achieve maturity], amca - 126, mk2 - 90, mk1 - 40 +83 [ increased 100 plus due to delay in mmrca] current nos.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

You can't fight with 5th generation fighter. They are meant to take out the radars, SAMs, adversary fighters and AWACs early on. Rest of destruction is done by 4.5 generation fighters. Because enough resources and funds are used for building the stealth fighter as VLO as possible, it is not possible to build enough of them. So it is dangerous if you put all your resources on AMCA only. USA learnt it the hard way. That's why ordering more F-15 EX while F-35 is available for them. And if the stealth fighter is F-35, you can manufacture enough of them. But if it is F-22, then you can't manufacture enough of them. They will be special aircraft. AMCA will incorporate best of both F-22 as well as F-35. So when they say only 7 squadrons will be procured, ut is believable.

As per IAF AMCA, MRFA, MKI, Rafale and Mirage-2K fighters will primarly be used against PLAAF. Currently Tejas doesn't fit in IAF doctrine against PLAAF except for point defense and minor incursion if needed. Bulk of operations are going to be carried out by AMCA, MRFA, MKI, Rafale and Mirage-2K.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

and main issue is two little tech from indian side, and russian not allowing access to su 57 pgrm and tech and

Main issue was that Russians were not ready to accept Indian mission computer and software and wanted their proprietary control on all systems.
Russians were also not ready for Indian avionics.

 

[The Mimic]

As per IAF AMCA, MRFA, MKI, Rafale and Mirage-2K fighters will primarly be used against PLAAF. Currently Tejas doesn't fit in IAF doctrine against PLAAF except for point defense and minor incursion if needed. Bulk of operations are going to be carried out by AMCA, MRFA, MKI, Rafale and Mirage-2K.

That is an excuse of IAF. When inducted, Tejas Mk. 2 will hold on its on against Chinese J-10 and J-16. It will scare Chinese pilots, I guarantee.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

That is an excuse of IAF.

At the end of day customer is the king. If IAF doesn't want a platform their will be a push-back.

 

[Blademaster]

Where are you guys getting these numbers from? IAF has never officially released any numbers.

GE engine has never been an issue for IAF. In fact IAF does like GE engine due to their high availability compared to Russian counterparts. To my knowledge IAF never demanded indigenous engine. Almost all out frontline ships in IN use US engine and future ships will continue to use GE or RR engine and IEP.

AMCA is a replacement of FGFA.

AMCA Mk. 1 will also use US engine. IAF has no problem with that. Same goes for Tejas Mk. 1.
Their is a reluctance to buy more Tejas Mk. 2 because it currently doesn’t fit in IAF’s planning/doctrine especially against PRC. Tejas as originally designed keeping PAF in view. Now or principle threat is PLAAF hence change in doctrine. Now AMCA has become a priority and IAF doesn’t want to waste fund (in their opinion) on Tejas.
IAF will only buy as much Tejas they think are needed to defend against PAF.

IAF and IN may like US engines but GoI doesn't because it is too much reliance and India would be forever a slave to US demands. So GoI is insisting on finding and developing an indigenous engine that will work for IAF and IN.

 

[no smoking]

That is an excuse of IAF. When inducted, Tejas Mk. 2 will hold on its on against Chinese J-10 and J-16. It will scare Chinese pilots, I guarantee.

Yah, keyboard warriors know much more than those spent their whole life on wars.
If they are wrong, they will lose their job, their pension, even their lives.
If you are wrong, you will lose......nothing!

 

[no smoking]

IAF and IN may like US engines but GoI doesn't because it is too much reliance and India would be forever a slave to US demands. So GoI is insisting on finding and developing an indigenous engine that will work for IAF and IN.

It is those pilots who will sit their asses on the engines not those politicians. Until the indigenous engine is matured, no one wants to risk his life with it.

 

[Tridev123]

As per IAF AMCA, MRFA, MKI, Rafale and Mirage-2K fighters will primarly be used against PLAAF. Currently Tejas doesn't fit in IAF doctrine against PLAAF except for point defense and minor incursion if needed. Bulk of operations are going to be carried out by AMCA, MRFA, MKI, Rafale and Mirage-2K.

While respecting your opinion I would like to know how will the Mirage 2000 be fully superior to the LCA mk2. The MWF/LCA mk2 with canards should have an superior flying envelope to the M2000. The thrust to weight ratio should be better because the GE 414 engine is an lower weight high thrust engine vis-a-vis the old engine in the M2000.

The MWF will have an IRST system and an on board oxygen generating system. It will have an Indian AESA radar Uttam mk2 (we are quite ahead in its development).
An vital improvement over the Pulse Doppler radar in the M2000.

As regards the payload both will be almost equal. I believe the MWF will have better cockpit displays compared to the M2000.

Let us not get into the comparison game. The M2000 is a fine aircraft and it has served the IAF well.

But the MWF is a newer design and incorporates newer technologies. Probably an generation ahead. I anticipate networking capabilities similar to the Gripen E(taking an positive attitude).

I even anticipate the MWF firing the Astra mk1(110 km range) , Astra mk 2 (160 km range) and the Astra mk3/SFDR(above 200 km range). The Meteor AAM may also be be part of the MWF's weapons package if all parties agree(India & France & MBDA).

So in what way will the MWF be inferior to the M2000.

I believe that the MWF will not be an paper plane. Because a lot of work has already been done to realise the various subsystems of the plane.

Why are attempts being made to question the utility of the MWF.
While the AMCA is very necessary and cutting edge technology, can anyone guarantee that there will be no delays in the realisation of the programme. In India delays in aerospace mean even an 10 year gap in the supposed to and actual induction dates. I would love to be proven wrong.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

While respecting your opinion I would like to know how will the Mirage 2000 be fully superior to the LCA mk2. The MWF/LCA mk2 with canards should have an superior flying envelope to the M2000. The thrust to weight ratio should be better because the GE 414 engine is an lower weight high thrust engine vis-a-vis the old engine in the M2000.

The MWF will have an IRST system and an on board oxygen generating system. It will have an Indian AESA radar Uttam mk2 (we are quite ahead in its development).
An vital improvement over the Pulse Doppler radar in the M2000.

As regards the payload both will be almost equal. I believe the MWF will have better cockpit displays compared to the M2000.

Let us not get into the comparison game. The M2000 is a fine aircraft and it has served the IAF well.

But the MWF is a newer design and incorporates newer technologies. Probably an generation ahead. I anticipate networking capabilities similar to the Gripen E(taking an positive attitude).

I even anticipate the MWF firing the Astra mk1(110 km range) , Astra mk 2 (160 km range) and the Astra mk3/SFDR(above 200 km range). The Meteor AAM may also be be part of the MWF's weapons package if all parties agree(India & France & MBDA).

So in what way will the MWF be inferior to the M2000.

I believe that the MWF will not be an paper plane. Because a lot of work has already been done to realise the various subsystems of the plane.

Why are attempts being made to question the utility of the MWF.
While the AMCA is very necessary and cutting edge technology, can anyone guarantee that there will be no delays in the realisation of the programme. In India delays in aerospace mean even an 10 year gap in the supposed to and actual induction dates. I would love to be proven wrong.

Its is not a question if question if Mirage-2000 is superior than Tejas Mk. 2 or not. The point here is IAF is comfortable with Mirage-2000 when it comes to deep penetration strike missions. Tejas will have to prove its worth.

On paper MKI is also superior to Mirage-2000 yet we always use Mirage-2000 for strike missions (e.g. Balakot).

It also fall down to operation doctrine of the AF to decide what assets will be used for any operations and our current doctrine favors Mirage-2000.

Tejas Mk. 2 will have to make place in IAF's doctrine else

As you said AMCA is still far from realization and that is true but so is Tejas Mk. 2 (far from realization).
Atleast for AMCA we are seeing meaningful progress, the same can't be said for Tejas Mk. 2.

Finally IAF has no confidence in HAL to deliver anything be it Tejas MK. 2, AMCA or even Su-30MKI upgrades.
From IAF's prospective (which I believe to be valid on their end), all strategies and doctrine are to be developed with assets in hand or those you are sure will be in hand. You can't build operation strategies and doctrine on vaporware.

 

[Blademaster]

It is those pilots who will sit their asses on the engines not those politicians. Until the indigenous engine is matured, no one wants to risk his life with it.

Ok then they won't be able to fly because those american engines would be dead for lack of spares. That is the hold that USA will have over India if India doesn't comply with US demands.

And remember, the pilots are supposed to risk their lives for the good of the nation. Otherwise don't volunteer to be a pilot for the IAF.

 

[Tridev123]

Its is not a question if question if Mirage-2000 is superior than Tejas Mk. 2 or not. The point here is IAF is comfortable with Mirage-2000 when it comes to deep penetration strike missions. Tejas will have to prove its worth.

On paper MKI is also superior to Mirage-2000 yet we always use Mirage-2000 for strike missions (e.g. Balakot).

It also fall down to operation doctrine of the AF to decide what assets will be used for any operations and our current doctrine favors Mirage-2000.

Tejas Mk. 2 will have to make place in IAF's doctrine else

As you said AMCA is still far from realization and that is true but so is Tejas Mk. 2 (far from realization).
Atleast for AMCA we are seeing meaningful progress, the same can't be said for Tejas Mk. 2.

Finally IAF has no confidence in HAL to deliver anything be it Tejas MK. 2, AMCA or even Su-30MKI upgrades.
From IAF's prospective (which I believe to be valid on their end), all strategies and doctrine are to be developed with assets in hand or those you are sure will be in hand. You can't build operation strategies and doctrine on vaporware.

Yes, the MWF has still not flown.
But do you really feel that the task of bringing the MWF to fruition will be as difficult or even more difficult than bringing the AMCA to fruition.
The MWF is an evolution of the basic LCA mk1 design while the AMCA is an whole new design. Stealth shaping and use of radar deflecting /radar absorbing materials is a part of designing an 5th generation aircraft. Many other never developed before technologies like EOTS will probably be part of the AMCA.

So which programme has more chances of succeeding in the given time frame.
MWF or AMCA.

Nobody is trying to belittle the role of the M2000. But the IAF will and should plan for the future also. The MWF is a piece of the future.

A lot of people initially had deep reservations on the LCA mk1 but I believe IAF pilots who have flown the aircraft say it behaves even better than the M2000. Its easier to fly than the M2000.

Let the MWF come out and fly. I am sure once the IAF pilots get their hands on the plane they would be happy with the aircraft.

Please have faith in our aerospace community. After going through so much of trials and tribulations in developing the LCA mk1 I am fairly confident that with all the experience gained they would realise the MWF /LCA mk2 within the end of this decade.

Many would say that the IAF is the least receptive to indigenous efforts as compared to the Navy and even the Army. But after tasting success in the LCA mk1a and the coming LCA mk2 their opinions might change.

As far as the engine is concerned I fully agree that an indigenous engine should power the LCA mk1 and LCA mk2. I believe it is work in progress. Hope that we succeed sooner than later.

Perpetual dependence on imported war planes is not an ideal situation. Though our starting attempts at indigenisation may not be state of the art, we should persist and improve our products in successive iterations.

If we aspire to be a great power self reliance in defence is an imperative not an option.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

IAF and IN may like US engines but GoI doesn't because it is too much reliance and India would be forever a slave to US demands. So GoI is insisting on finding and developing an indigenous engine that will work for IAF and IN.

GoI has no issue with importing engine from GE or RR. Though under atmanirbhar bharat aegis GoI wants 100% indigenization. GoI is more keen to do such deals with US than Russia or Ukraine.
Even for upcoming class next generation of ships and aircraft we will be moving ahead with western countries. GoI is using these purchases as political and diplomatic tool and equalizing trade deficient with US.

Successive governments are becoming more and more pro US and West.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

GoI has no issue with importing engine from GE or RR. Though under atmanirbhar bharat aegis GoI wants 100% indigenization. GoI is more keen to do such deals with US than Russia or Ukraine.
Even for upcoming class next generation of ships and aircraft we will be moving ahead with western countries. GoI is using these purchases as political and diplomatic tool and equalizing trade deficient with US.

Successive governments are becoming more and more pro US and West.

The only reason why Cabinet Committee on Security haven't yet cleared AMCA is because the non-american engine is not fixed. The GE F414 for first 2 squadrons is just a stop gap measure to continue with platform development and prototype testing. IAF will not go forward with AMCA with large orders as long as it doesn't have a non-american turbofan(why US's trusted UK's RR engine co development was dead fish on arrival). The same will be the fate of Tejas. 83 + 40 = 123 Tejas fighters already have GE engines. IAF will not let it go above 200 aircraft fleets.