ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[johnj]

Still saying stuff like "interim solution". And not admitting that the Mk2 should be the mainstay going forward. They'll have their 100+ foreign MRFA no matter what.

Mk2 is a interim solution [150 nos] with ge414 and becomes normal solution with desi engine. 300 amca, 150 mmrca. 100 lca mk1a.

 

[kamaal]

Mk2 is a interim solution [150 nos] with ge414 and becomes normal solution with desi engine. 300 amca, 150 mmrca. 100 lca mk1a.

MK2 is a critical project for IAF, this will fill the squadron gap. AMCA numbers will be restricted within 100-120 due to higher mfg cost and limited dimension of operations, mk2 may touch 150+ if it delivers on the promise.
MK2's mfging cost shall be kept within $ 55-60 million with more indigenous content. MRFA deal will decide fate of mk2.

 

[India Super Power]

MK2 is a critical project for IAF, this will fill the squadron gap. AMCA numbers will be restricted within 100-120 due to higher mfg cost and limited dimension of operations, mk2 may touch 150+ if it delivers on the promise.
MK2's mfging cost shall be kept within $ 55-60 million with more indigenous content. MRFA deal will decide fate of mk2.

I think order will go beyond 200
Yes at once they won't give a large order but in different orders
In future medium weight multirole fighter will have a large role + replace ment of older fighters too
But for it to happen mk2 program needs to be successful

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Drag issues related to delta wing can't be solved for any delta wing , rest are configuration based , so don't bother about it .

Rest mk2 is under development so u cannot sell it before development complete

Delta wing drag issue can be addressed by RSS. Only after RSS came in , Delta designs became popular.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Come on bro.. Copying means taking basic inspiration with some tweaks to improve/customize areas.
Its a very common practice.

never mind, I was expecting a discussion/detailed opinion rather then someone trying to kill the query.

Here is the video for your reference.

I am equally interested in drag and transsonic acceleration as we are going to have then in 83 numbers. It is said that it will be a 20 pc improvement in trans sonic acceleration. 2 pc improvement in top speed etc.

 

[kamaal]

I think order will go beyond 200
Yes at once they won't give a large order but in different orders
In future medium weight multirole fighter will have a large role + replace ment of older fighters too
But for it to happen mk2 program needs to be successful

All I am worried about is the timeline of mk2, ADA/HAL duo hasn't been able to keep with their promises. Whatever they promised in 2021 Aero India has yet to be delivered, their excuses about lack of supplies from foreign OEMs are also not believable.

 

[The Mimic]

Mk2 is a interim solution [150 nos] with ge414 and becomes normal solution with desi engine. 300 amca, 150 mmrca. 100 lca mk1a.

No, it should be 270 Tejas Mk. 2s (15 Sqdns), 36 AMCA Mk. 1s (2 Sqdns) and 90 AMCA Mk. 2s (5 Sqdns). There you go 15+2+5 = 22 Squadrons of modern fighters.

 

[Blademaster]

No, it should be 270 Tejas Mk. 2s (15 Sqdns), 36 AMCA Mk. 1s (2 Sqdns) and 90 AMCA Mk. 2s (5 Sqdns). There you go 15+2+5 = 22 Squadrons of modern fighters.

I need to stop you there. I do not agree with IAF decreasing the number of planes in a squadron. It should be 22, not 18 planes per squadron to allow for attrition rates.

 

[The Mimic]

I need to stop you there. I do not agree with IAF decreasing the number of planes in a squadron. It should be 22, not 18 planes per squadron to allow for attrition rates.

It will be the decision of IAF, not mine.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

No, it should be 270 Tejas Mk. 2s (15 Sqdns), 36 AMCA Mk. 1s (2 Sqdns) and 90 AMCA Mk. 2s (5 Sqdns). There you go 15+2+5 = 22 Squadrons of modern fighters.

As long as Tejas uses American engines, this 270 Tejas Mk2 will be a pipedream. IAF at max will go for 7-8 squadrons

 

[Blademaster]

As long as Tejas uses American engines, this 270 Tejas Mk2 will be a pipedream. IAF at max will go for 7-8 squadrons

Or if US grant local production with sanction proof guarantees, it may be doable.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

As long as Tejas uses American engines, this 270 Tejas Mk2 will be a pipedream. IAF at max will go for 7-8 squadrons

How? Can you please Explain?

 

[HariPrasad-1]

SAAB should hire this guy.... seriously, he is doing more promotion for gripen, than the oem themselves

He should be asked to explain performance gap. I have made him eat his own words many time in discussion many times on various platforms.

 

[The Mimic]

I am just waiting for Tejas Mk. 2 to be included in DCS. I want to see dogfighting between Tejas Mk. 2 and F-22. If Gripen-E has sometimes beaten F-22 in dogfighting, Tejas Mk. 2 can too.

 

[johnj]

MK2 is a critical project for IAF, this will fill the squadron gap. AMCA numbers will be restricted within 100-120 due to higher mfg cost and limited dimension of operations, mk2 may touch 150+ if it delivers on the promise.
MK2's mfging cost shall be kept within $ 55-60 million with more indigenous content. MRFA deal will decide fate of mk2.

Starting with 5th gen. During initial stage of fgfa, IAF planned to buy 250 jets which reduced to 144 plus prototype and AMCA going to replace Mig29, Mirage 2000 and some jags means around 200 and combine both gets 344 plus, means IAF need around 350 Fifth gen, and I'm considering around 300.
4th gen, all 4th gen including early Su 30 starts retiring from 2035 onwards when AMCA mk2 arrives. Means IAF need 150 lca mk2. Mk1a help to keep sqn strength, but uses USA engine and same case with mk2, mki having heavy maintenance, low sortie rate. two pilots, extra makes IAF to reduce its sqn strength, makes room for AMCA. 100 LCA helps IAF to keep current sqn strength, MMRCA helps to fill mig23/mig27 with mki and increase sortie rate, mk2 helps to fill mig 29 and jaguar fleet, AMCA fill mki, mirage fleet and 6th gen replace mk1 and goes on, with job shared by ucav. The no.of lca mk2 depends on AMCA success and total no.of MMRCA brought. We are going to spend huge money into AMCA even its engine require multi billions r&d, buying just 150 nos doesn't make any sense, around 250 plus is a good number also IAF demanded indigenous engine not a US one, giving huge potential of AMCA vs lca mk1a. lca mk2 mwf[vs mki]. <42 sqn is the target>

 

[johnj]

No, it should be 270 Tejas Mk. 2s (15 Sqdns), 36 AMCA Mk. 1s (2 Sqdns) and 90 AMCA Mk. 2s (5 Sqdns). There you go 15+2+5 = 22 Squadrons of modern fighters.

90 AMCA for what, show case ? IAF having requirement of 250 plus 5th gen, around 300, mk1 gets upgraded into mk2 level, AMCA not a replacement of FGFA. Once AMCA mk2 starts productions, Tejas Mk. 2 production comes to halt.
Why IAF favouring AMCA more compared with Tejas, becz Tejas uses USA engine, means IAF only can use Tejas for defensive roles due to Non Nato alliance of USA and Chinese Air defensive systems.
MMRCA 2 helps IAF to increase warfighting capability and additional jets in the case of delay in Tejas mk2, AMCA.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Starting with 5th gen. During initial stage of fgfa, IAF planned to buy 250 jets which reduced to 144 plus prototype and AMCA going to replace Mig29, Mirage 2000 and some jags means around 200 and combine both gets 344 plus, means IAF need around 350 Fifth gen, and I'm considering around 300.
4th gen, all 4th gen including early Su 30 starts retiring from 2035 onwards when AMCA mk2 arrives. Means IAF need 150 lca mk2. Mk1a help to keep sqn strength, but uses USA engine and same case with mk2, mki having heavy maintenance, low sortie rate. two pilots, extra makes IAF to reduce its sqn strength, makes room for AMCA. 100 LCA helps IAF to keep current sqn strength, MMRCA helps to fill mig23/mig27 with mki and increase sortie rate, mk2 helps to fill mig 29 and jaguar fleet, AMCA fill mki, mirage fleet and 6th gen replace mk1 and goes on, with job shared by ucav. The no.of lca mk2 depends on AMCA success and total no.of MMRCA brought. We are going to spend huge money into AMCA even its engine require multi billions r&d, buying just 150 nos doesn't make any sense, around 250 plus is a good number also IAF demanded indigenous engine not a US one, giving huge potential of AMCA vs lca mk1a. lca mk2 mwf[vs mki]. <42 sqn is the target>

90 AMCA for what, show case ? IAF having requirement of 250 plus 5th gen, around 300, mk1 gets upgraded into mk2 level, AMCA not a replacement of FGFA. Once AMCA mk2 starts productions, Tejas Mk. 2 production comes to halt.
Why IAF favouring AMCA more compared with Tejas, becz Tejas uses USA engine, means IAF only can use Tejas for defensive roles due to Non Nato alliance of USA and Chinese Air defensive systems.
MMRCA 2 helps IAF to increase warfighting capability and additional jets in the case of delay in Tejas mk2, AMCA.

Where are you guys getting these numbers from? IAF has never officially released any numbers.

GE engine has never been an issue for IAF. In fact IAF does like GE engine due to their high availability compared to Russian counterparts. To my knowledge IAF never demanded indigenous engine. Almost all out frontline ships in IN use US engine and future ships will continue to use GE or RR engine and IEP.

AMCA is a replacement of FGFA.

AMCA Mk. 1 will also use US engine. IAF has no problem with that. Same goes for Tejas Mk. 1.
Their is a reluctance to buy more Tejas Mk. 2 because it currently doesn’t fit in IAF’s planning/doctrine especially against PRC. Tejas as originally designed keeping PAF in view. Now or principle threat is PLAAF hence change in doctrine. Now AMCA has become a priority and IAF doesn’t want to waste fund (in their opinion) on Tejas.
IAF will only buy as much Tejas they think are needed to defend against PAF.

 

[The Mimic]

90 AMCA for what, show case ? IAF having requirement of 250 plus 5th gen

What you are proposing is very good for reading, but can't be possible.

 

[The Mimic]

Their is a reluctance to buy more Tejas Mk. 2 because it currently doesn’t fit in IAF’s planning/doctrine especially against PRC. Tejas as originally designed keeping PAF in view. Now or principle threat is PLAAF hence change in doctrine. Now AMCA has become a priority and IAF doesn’t want to waste fund (in their opinion) on Tejas.
IAF will only buy as much Tejas they think are needed to defend against PAF.

You can't fight with 5th generation fighter. They are meant to take out the radars, SAMs, adversary fighters and AWACs early on. Rest of destruction is done by 4.5 generation fighters. Because enough resources and funds are used for building the stealth fighter as VLO as possible, it is not possible to build enough of them. So it is dangerous if you put all your resources on AMCA only. USA learnt it the hard way. That's why ordering more F-15 EX while F-35 is available for them. And if the stealth fighter is F-35, you can manufacture enough of them. But if it is F-22, then you can't manufacture enough of them. They will be special aircraft. AMCA will incorporate best of both F-22 as well as F-35. So when they say only 7 squadrons will be procured, ut is believable.

 

[johnj]

Where are you guys getting these numbers from? IAF has never officially released any numbers.

GE engine has never been an issue for IAF. In fact IAF does like GE engine due to their high availability compared to Russian counterparts. To my knowledge IAF never demanded indigenous engine. Almost all out frontline ships in IN use US engine and future ships will continue to use GE or RR engine and IEP.

''

AMCA Mk. 1 will also use US engine. IAF has no problem with that. Same goes for Tejas Mk. 1.
Their is a reluctance to buy more Tejas Mk. 2 because it currently doesn’t fit in IAF’s planning/doctrine especially against PRC. Tejas as originally designed keeping PAF in view. Now or principle threat is PLAAF hence change in doctrine. Now AMCA has become a priority and IAF doesn’t want to waste fund (in their opinion) on Tejas.
IAF will only buy as much Tejas they think are needed to defend against PAF.

What nos, the nos I'm assuming/guessing or IAF ones, IAF nos - 144 FGFA, 126 to 180 MMRCA and 40 mk1 now 83 mk1a, FGFA 250 nos media and GoI rests my assumptions.
''AMCA is a replacement of FGFA.'' not a replacement, but another pgrm. initially India consider using tech developed/learned from FGFA to use in AMCA pgrm. [Only change is initial nos of fgfa 250 plus became 144 in favour of AMCA and FGFA gets cancelled, still Russian trying to sell 144s]
IAF always demanded indigenous engine, and repeating the demand.
''DRDO must find a way of building a suitable fighter engine in partnership and this is the initial path to success of future aircraft programmes.'' DRDO Must Find A Way Of Building A Suitable Fighter Engine In Partnership For Future Aircraft: Indian Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria
Recently I read similar statements in this forum.
Why lca or arjun [offtopic] , I don't know, but I know how our armed forces reacted to it, in the case of lca,- not a replacement of mig21, 40 nos to keep goi/ada happy, then new improved one mk2, some 80 plus initial order, [like arjun mk2], end of topic. Now 83 nos of lca mk1a becz mmrca and mk2 doesn't go as planned, both hal and iaf happy.
''GE engine has never been an issue for IAF. In fact IAF does like GE engine due to their high availability compared to Russian counterparts.'' true but IAF also uses EU ones also. USA tech comes with rules and can't use against USA, USA allies and a question mark about its partners.
In the case of IN, its with Ukraine Vs US and Italy vs US and Ukraine and US both having close relationship with Pakistan and China and IN collaborating with US in aircraft carrier tech.