ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[WARREN SS]

Not only Mk2, but the whole developmental path to AMCA and beyond would be stunted due to lack of funds soaked by 90 (mfg. eco-system n tech on MK2 would be sharpened for future platforms) . In a no funds constraints situation (subjective), maybe the choices would be easier. Given that the government seems to be 'very' keen on defence exports (which also ties up the destination country to the supplier strategically for decades), it seems that MK2 would be inducted by IAF in large numbers.
* In my opinion, the only thing other than MK2 that would have changed government's mind vis-a-vis IAF requirement would be ORCA, had it been at a similar life cycle stage as MK2 (Still won't make sense from exports POV)
** I also believe that if IAF requires some more 4.5 gen aircrafts beyond the scheduled (we don't know the final number) purchase of MK2, it would be ORCA. Might look at it somewhere around the start of deliveries of MK2 and TEDBF.
*** Could a forum member educate me on why won't the airforce be interested in ORCA (if there is a logic beyond funds n interest in imported planes)
Edit: Have read the discussions on ORCA, but couldn't find a conclusion, therefore my query on ***

AMCA will not suffered
Has there is mass private participation
In project

Most of critical technology already funded through by Govt and will be completed before 2025

Also IAF also cutting MLU cost by half through Indeginious options

Funds by 2030 when orders of AMCA will given

Military budget will be around
150 billion $

So no AMCA will far from threat window

Mk2 and OCRA definitely is on cutting edge as it's not adding anything new except
Medium category aircrafts

If add both projects the Cost itself goes beyond
25-30 billion $

But TEDBF will go through by Navy

No 1 priority should be Turbofan engines
Without it all Indeginious efforts and ecosystem is Pipe dream

 

[SavageKing456]

Will it derail MK2 ?


View attachment 119427

Source-IDU whose reports are based on speculations

 

[Dessert Storm]

AMCA will not suffered
Has there is mass private participation
In project



Funds by 2030 when orders of AMCA will given

Military budget will be around
150 billion $

So no AMCA will far from threat window

Mk2 and OCRA definitely is on cutting edge as it's not adding anything new except
Medium category aircrafts

But TEDBF will go through by Navy

Sir
The private participation is for manufacturing AFAIK, not for tech development.

Tech funding requirement has been there since "today minus infinity". You are rightly pointing to availability of funds for purchase, but I am approaching it from a different angle. Tech dev roadmap is from here to the time it's delivery start and beyond.

MK2 (maybe ORCA) is everything new from the POV of our learnings, mfg dev. Further, as mentioned previously too, it (they) is (are) an important cog in the defence export wheel.

Edit: Engine development

 

[Lonewolf]

Sir
The private participation is for manufacturing AFAIK, not for tech development.

Tech funding requirement has been there since "today minus infinity". You are rightly pointing to availability of funds for purchase, but I am approaching it from a different angle. Tech dev roadmap is from here to the time it's delivery start and beyond.

MK2 (maybe ORCA) is everything new from the POV of our learnings, mfg dev. Further, as mentioned previously too, it (they) is (are) an important cog in the defence export wheel.

Edit: Engine development

Who u think is developing and helping in amca tech , aml is working including many others

 

[WARREN SS]

Sir
The private participation is for manufacturing AFAIK, not for tech development.

Tech funding requirement has been there since "today minus infinity". You are rightly pointing to availability of funds for purchase, but I am approaching it from a different angle. Tech dev roadmap is from here to the time it's delivery start and beyond.

MK2 (maybe ORCA) is everything new from the POV of our learnings, mfg dev. Further, as mentioned previously too, it (they) is (are) an important cog in the defence export wheel.

Edit: Engine development

Most of the technologies of AMCA is already
Pipe line

Most the critical technologies are already
Achieved

By DRDO
Like GAN AESA ,EOTs, Next EW they are already getting well funding in R&D by DRDO


AMCA design cost and development of prototype is Pegged at 4-5 billion $

Rs. 15,000 crore will be sanctioned for the program soon as per the latest reports. By 2022

This cost is Excluding Turbofan Engine which will cost around 5-6 billion $ alone
And it's a most critical technology we need
Currently

thought prototype already Pegged with GE414

Going by that Amca Mk2 will be around 2035
The IAF budget alone will around 50-60 billion $ yearly yearly including Capex

Considering the Development cost is of 8-9 years
It's peanuts for IAF Capex
even if they order 100 more Rafale by
In next decade
Capex is increasing every year


PS: There is scope of MK2 in budget
For that IAF has To cancel OCRA definitely

 

[Dessert Storm]

Who u think is developing and helping in amca tech , aml is working including many others

Would all that tech go into AMCA or will most of it go into the fighters inducted before AMCA?

 

[Dessert Storm]

Most the critical technologies are already
Achieved

Other than engine, what are the techs where we are either struggling or in nascent stage of development.

 

[WARREN SS]

Other than engine, what are the techs where we are either struggling or in nascent stage of development.

We have achieved almost all critical technologies
Or will achieve it by 2025

We are still doing Advance research into Material
And cabon Fibers and alloys
But present situation is also satisfactory


Turbofan engine is core technology we are lacking in
Which is most critical part of Aviation sector
It's a heart of aircraft

We a relying on most untrustworthy ally in the globe which is US
For are most critical project.

 

[Dessert Storm]

We have achieved almost all critical technologies
Or will achieve it by 2025

We are still doing Advance research into Material
And cabon Fibers and alloys
But present situation is also satisfactory


Turbofan engine is core technology we are lacking in
Which is most critical part of Aviation sector
It's a heart of aircraft

We a relying on most untrustworthy ally in the globe which is US
For are most critical project.

Our reliance in this regard stems from the lack of choice. Other than the American makers, it would be the British and the French (India dosen't want Russian engines). British policy is influenced by Americans, so why not deal directly with Americans. French didn't seem to have the engine required or did they @BON PLAN @Picard.
Further GE has engines for platforms Tejas Mk1-AMCA Mk1, so it's convenient from commonality and continuity perspective.
If I may..... GE engine was the necessary evil (unreliable ally) that was chosen.

 

[SavageKing456]

We have achieved almost all critical technologies
Or will achieve it by 2025

We are still doing Advance research into Material
And cabon Fibers and alloys
But present situation is also satisfactory


Turbofan engine is core technology we are lacking in
Which is most critical part of Aviation sector
It's a heart of aircraft

We a relying on most untrustworthy ally in the globe which is US
For are most critical project.

We don't properly fund it,India can make world class engine within 15 years time from now If we fund it properly.
Kaveri got wayy less funds than what was required

 

[WARREN SS]

We don't properly fund it,India can make world class engine within 15 years time from now If we fund it properly.
Kaveri got wayy less funds than what was required

Indian statergic planners has myopic idea
About development

The key for development of critical technologies Iike Turbofan Engine needs private participation.

For that govt should see beyond military applications of Turbofan engine technologies
And for commercial export
And domestic market

Build on infrastructure of commercials aircrafts markets Both Russians and Chinese doing it

I don't know what had stopped india.

There is huge scope for this

There can be multiple indian Corporate alliance btw both public firms and private like
Engine Alliance (EA) or EuroJet Turbo GmbH

Make it has Crucial statergic project
That means govt Should share 50 % cost with Private partners

 

[Picard]

Our reliance in this regard stems from the lack of choice. Other than the American makers, it would be the British and the French (India dosen't want Russian engines). British policy is influenced by Americans, so why not deal directly with Americans. French didn't seem to have the engine required or did they @BON PLAN @Picard.
Further GE has engines for platforms Tejas Mk1-AMCA Mk1, so it's convenient from commonality and continuity perspective.
If I may..... GE engine was the necessary evil (unreliable ally) that was chosen.

Most modern French engine IIRC is Snecma M88 used on Rafale. So unless you went all Novi Avion route, a single-engined fighter would have required a grounds-up development.

 

[WARREN SS]

Most modern French engine IIRC is Snecma M88 used on Rafale. So unless you went all Novi Avion route, a single-engined fighter would have required a grounds-up development.

What happened to M53-P2

Why its not further developed

Is there is scope of future R&D
Like GE 414

 

[Picard]

What happened to M53-P2

Why its not further developed

Is there is scope of future R&D
Like GE 414

There is always scope for further development, but that is unlikely to happen as France now has Rafale. And that engine is old, though there might be a possibility of developing new engine based on it? I don't know.

 

[lcafanboy]

I pray to the Buddhas that PM Modi shoves this down IAF's throats.

It already has been shoved down the IAF throat...
Government has choked funds of IAF and now the only way to Stop squadron level from going down and keep IAF a relevant force is by buying cheaper fighters which they will be able to buy only from within India meaning LCA mk1A, MWF, AMCA and OCRA if TEDBF ever goes into production. 90 or maybe 114 rafales are the last imported fighter planes which IAF will get...


Here remember we will have to replace jaguars, MiG-21, by 2025, MiG-29, by 2030 and eventually Mirage 2k by 2040 and also reach a squadron level of around 45 sqdns by 2040 for IAF and don't forget indian Navy which itself needs 10 to 12 sqdns by 2040.

The only way it's possible is to buy indigenous fighter planes. So LCA mk2 aka MWF is definitely coming in huge numbers more than 200 by 2035-40..

 

[IndianHawk]

That’s not the consensus, that’s projection.

if IAF fixates on their MRFA pipe dream as they are doing then MK.2 will be sacrificed it’s as simple as that.

I bet you were saying 15 years ago the IAF would have no choice but to induct the LCA MK.1 in large numbers to replace all their MiG-21/23 squadrons and yet there will be Bison squadrons serving at least until 2025.

We’ve seen that the IAF will happily see its strength deplete in the hope they get some shiny foreign toys

IAF will be reigned in . Post of CDS is created to reign in all three forces for a more coherent national strategy.

But that doesn't stop Rafale since infrastructure for 72 Rafale is already build and by cancelling su57/ fgfa Rafale is only mature advanced platform available right now to take on advanced Chinese jets.

Mk2 will take a decade to emerge as a mature war fighting machine by the time all air to air and air to ground weapons are integrated and operational.

So mk2 and more rafales will happily co exist.

Cancelling fgfa has created a gap which will for now be filled by Rafale untill amca comes along by 2035 . Meanwhile mk2 will do what mmrca was supposed to do.

And by 2030 sanctioned squarden strength will have to grow up with growing budget and Chinese threat.

 

[Tshering22]

Will it derail MK2 ?


View attachment 119427

Someone in the IAF is definitely trying to derail the Tejas project. The RMO should not budge from the Tejas Mk2 at any cost. Even if it means that the IAF throws a hissy fit. I do not like the new ACM VR Chaudhary after what he told in his first brief. He seems to be in the bed with the foreign arms lobby.

 

[Tshering22]

1) Modi won’t be PM when MK.2 is ready for service
2) There’s no precedent for a PM making such procurement decisions on behalf of the services. That’s not how the system works- the executive can only sign off on plans the services make, they can’t specifically direct them what to buy.

The efforts to derail the project has started while he is the PM. It all starts now and builds up. That's the point; not to allow the MWF/Tejas Mk2 project to get derailed. If the current administration shows determination and stubbornness for choosing domestic products, the service chiefs will remain within control. It is known that Modi Ji won't be the PM in 2030s. But whether it is Motabhai or Yogi ruling then, the precedent set now will follow.

I am well aware of how defence procurement works. But the final decision always remains in the hands of MoD. The services can only ask; they cannot impose or refuse. Their rejection can be accepted but if the MoD puts its foot down for whatever reason, the service chief can only protest by resigning.

I am against political meddling in defence matters, but given the tendency of top commanders/IAS babus in the committees, and their tendency for kickbacks from imports, induction of indigenous platforms will have to have a show of force by the top executive. There is no other way of doing it to avoid the international arms lobby that controls most military seniors in India.

That's all. MoD has the final say no matter what. This is where strong indigenous precedence from now itself can be set to ensure that the program is on track and that IAF buys its no matter whoever is the ACM or PM or RM at that time.

 

[samsaptaka]

so they are inducting it cuz they got no choice and not cuz they want it to?

If you leave it to IAF (or UNAF as @vishnugupt aptly quoted) they would want F22 also... waiting for their wants will leave the country's airforce akin to Afghanistan's airforce !

 

[vishnugupt]

we all know how factual our fav halwai is...but how do you see his remark that akash sam was obsolete when it was inducted...? naturally pakistanis are enjoying him thanks to pgurus!

After listening to his past and present opinion, One can safely assume that He is not an LM or Boeing dalla. He is an asset to UN armed forces who cry for import, no matter from where and what weapons.
His knowledge about indigenous programs is actually a mirror of the UN Armed forces general's/Chief's opinions.

Will it derail MK2 ?


View attachment 119427

Still, the requirement for 114 MRFA will be there till eternity.

AMCA will not suffered
Has there is mass private participation
In project

Most of critical technology already funded through by Govt and will be completed before 2025

Also IAF also cutting MLU cost by half through Indeginious options

Funds by 2030 when orders of AMCA will given

Military budget will be around
150 billion $

So no AMCA will far from threat window

Mk2 and OCRA definitely is on cutting edge as it's not adding anything new except
Medium category aircrafts

If add both projects the Cost itself goes beyond
25-30 billion $

But TEDBF will go through by Navy

No 1 priority should be Turbofan engines
Without it all Indeginious efforts and ecosystem is Pipe dream

I like your confidence in AMCA but given the past experience of Notorious IAF, AMCA is more prone to rejection than Tejas mk2. Why?
1 ) IAF even rejected PAK-FA because of the engine which was in fact in development.
2 ) AMCA most likely will be delayed
3 ) By 2035, IAF will talk about 6th generation jet ( You know ever fast-evolving threats )
5 ) Indias budget and GDP will increase so will increase the area of influence IAF might demand Heavy category 5th/6th generation fighter
6 ) Technologies for Tejas mk2 are readily available but for AMCA it is into development.
7 ) 114 MRFA will become 114 5th/6th generation fighter acquisition programs.

Many Dallas and lobbies will be there to take care of the rest.