ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
New Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
590
Country flag
The only thing that Tejas is any lesser than MIG is the speed and nothing else...


Vayu sTRATPOST are few individuals like us who have experience in certain areas like defense or research who come together and discuss on the latest developments...

BUt with all due respect most of them are usually anti Indian goods.... and recent one was all anti Tejas.....
tejas below MiG21? Stupidity knows no bounds. Btw, what is this Vayu Stratpost ?
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
tejas below MiG21? Stupidity knows no bounds. Btw, what is this Vayu Stratpost ?
The only thing that Tejas is any lesser than MIG is the speed and nothing else...


Vayu sTRATPOST are few individuals like us who have experience in certain areas like defense or research who come together and discuss on the latest developments...

BUt with all due respect most of them are usually anti Indian goods.... and recent one was all anti Tejas.....
There was not a single person with any credentials of research in that strat post conference!!!!!

Mostly journalists and service personnels.

All the guys who dumped on tejas were retired and retiring airforce personnel who could not even change the unsuitable at low altitude ejection seat in Mig-21 to martin baker mk9 that is present in jaguar right now.This single step would have saved the life of scores of young pilots.Even PAF did it with their Mig-19s.These guys calling tejas below Mig-21 bisons is down right disgusting.
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
New Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
590
Country flag
There was not a single person with any credentials of research in that strat post conference!!!!!

Mostly journalists and service personnels.

All the guys who dumped on tejas were retired and retiring airforce personnel who could not even change the unsuitable at low altitude ejection seat in Mig-21 to martin baker mk9 that is present in jaguar right now.This single step would have saved the life of scores of young pilots.Even PAF did it with their Mig-19s.These guys calling tejas below Mig-21 bisons is down right disgusting.
dissapointed angry with IAF HAL DRDO ADA...... and mod
 

indiatester

New Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
Messages
5,915
Likes
20,439
Country flag
There was not a single person with any credentials of research in that strat post conference!!!!!

Mostly journalists and service personnels.

All the guys who dumped on tejas were retired and retiring airforce personnel who could not even change the unsuitable at low altitude ejection seat in Mig-21 to martin baker mk9 that is present in jaguar right now.This single step would have saved the life of scores of young pilots.Even PAF did it with their Mig-19s.These guys calling tejas below Mig-21 bisons is down right disgusting.
Does that reflect the majority view from IAF towards Tejas?
Even though the discussion is one sided because there was not one member who wanted to side with Tejas,
I am apprehensive about ADA/DRDO/HAL combination after listening through the discussion. I can't believe that all these retired gentlemen are against the nation and / or have been paid off. We are in for trouble either way. :confused:
 

Anoop Sajwan

New Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Messages
80
Likes
14
They are simply trying to kill the programme. I would like to meet the people who brought in the logic that Tejas mk1 should be an "Advanced trainer"

LCA is designate as LIFT not because the incapability of its airframe. While LCA is inducting in service as lowest capable or least priority plane. Of-course MKI and RAfale will be given to best pilots. Same time LCA will see new comers of IAF. So it will be a base for them to train themselves. LCA will take part in war just like other fighters.
Basically older platforms are used for this purpose while we are using a whole brand new jet for that. Thats why it was quoted as LIFT.
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
Does that reflect the majority view from IAF towards Tejas?
Even though the discussion is one sided because there was not one member who wanted to side with Tejas,
I am apprehensive about ADA/DRDO/HAL combination after listening through the discussion. I can't believe that all these retired gentlemen are against the nation and / or have been paid off. We are in for trouble either way. :confused:
It was am effort to jusify superfluous 20 billion dollar rafale buy, which is being questioned. For that they have to pour shit on tejas. And the new IAF chief Aroop raha has an entirely differnet take on this.
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
Losing respect for these IAF people.. !!!! Not a single person is Positive .. Damn the navy is advising to support the Indeginious effort for the IAF...
The french air chief strongly recommends rafale to US navy due to the delays in F-35 program, eventhough both the fighters are a gen apart!!!!Still he is promoting his nation's strategic interest.

Russian Airforce is accepting PAKFA next year into service,with a standby engine and radar while the original ones are delayed .

SAAB produces promotional material to claim that their Gripen E is much better than F-35,

Typhoon is accepted into service with ground bombing role not perfected yet. And it was being improved in tranches.

Same with rafale, its F-3 standard with ASEA radar and meteor validation is yet to be finished.

But our Imported Airforce guys are calling Tejas mk1 a trainer in front of the whole world by trooping in at the fart fest called vayu stratpost!!!!

No fighter in IAF has the 4 channel all digital fly by wire tech with relaxed static stability airframe ,which is to remain unstable even in supersonic flight(not possible even in typhoon, which goes back to stable flight profile in supersonic speeds) along with lowest clean config RCS and a radar capable of detecting air borne threats at max BVR missile range available today ,i.e 120 Km all in one platform!!!!

It can land and perform missions in Leh from first day of induction, a feat achieved by not any IAF fighter.

It's combo of low wing loading and high thrust to weight ratio(it exceeds mirage-2000 by a substantial margin on these counts) is tailor made for high himalayan airspace which saw action in kargil war, where Mirage-2000 was the only fighter bomber capable of undertaking precision bombing runs.tejas mk1 can do this job today itself even with in IOC-2 parameters.

Once its composite radome is replaced with Quartz radome tejas mk1 can track and fire enemy fighters at 120 Km plus range with its hybrid israeli Elta 2032 , which is as good as any fighter in IAF.

And its GE-404 engine is known all over the world for reliability ,compared it Mig-21 engines they are many times safer.

Add to that it has a fixed refueling probe and an internal Ew suit along with dedicated external litening pod for accurate LGB runs.

Yet a few IAF worthies for reasons known only to themselves ,consider tejas mk1 to be below Mig-21 Bison and a trainer!!!!

Which is unfailingly promoted by few tenacious posters here in this thread!!!!

Logic seems to have gone for a six these days.
 
Last edited:

SilentKiller

New Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
799
Likes
377
Country flag
its all part of thinking of future and taking some tough decisions.
Navy has and is taking them and in near future will benefit from it, Airforce and army are way behind navy in thinking of tomorrow.
Self reliance is the only option for solid development and securing indian interests in world which is becoming day by day more volatile.
groups are getting made, pacts are made and dropped every other day. security and indian interests come first, rest everything is on back burner.
 

Punya Pratap

New Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2013
Messages
474
Likes
361
Country flag
The IAF is a past master in the "Stall & Spin" tactics....it wants to bury the Tejas Mk 1 & wants to go for Mk2 which is its Stall Tactics and I can bet that when Mk2 takes to the skies it will bury it saying its out of relevance what with Rafale & FGFA in the scenario.... when Mk2 arrives it will start hankering for AMCA saying only AMCA fulfills its requirements not even Mk2!!

The whole IAF drama is coz if it starts inducting the Tejas Mk 1 the GoI will slash the numbers if not cancel the Rafale all together!!

As for the mentality of IAF towards Tejas Mk2....they dint even want to support/fund it forget about inducting it in the future..... now when the Youngest Brother (read I.N. ) is getting a better powered plane their superiority complex gets shaken into such a fury that they have put logic to rest by denoting Tejas Mk1 a Lean In Trainer !! :shocked:

I am not in a mood to point out all the tech achievements/advancements we have achieved through Tejas Mk1 to IAF but I certainly hope that Modi Govt. will not let the whole Marut drama unfold all over again but will fund not only the Kaveri but "encourage" IAF to induct Tejas Mk1 & Mk2 in numbers.

The fundamental hard facts of life is that self reliance is the best self defense !! This is the reason why I admire I.N. a lot coz even though get the lowest percentage of budget yet they have realised the value of self reliance and have taken concrete steps towards realising it. By the way IN's role in future will surpass IAF & IA's coz IOR is going to be much bigger and volatile theater compared to anything else.
USA & China know this that is the thought behind the "Pivot to Asia" tactics...US wants to strengthen its presence and the Chinese does nt want to let that happen coz 60% of world trade/commerce flows to IOR!!!

To put the self reliance in perspective we ought to look at China that is challenging the might of USA with only 150 Russian Sukhoi's (Su27 & 30's) which is like less than 10% of its entire fighter/interceptor/strike component (1500 +)!! The rest all being indigenous fighters!! Recently and in near past China has taken a very aggressive stance towards USA (Mid-air posturing sparks US-China verbal volley | idrw.org) and what does it have in its arsenal?? Even though IAF has 250 + Su-30 MKI's which is arguably the best Air Dominance in the World we still want more!!

I am surprised with IAF's "west is best" attitude coz they either dont trust the man - machine combo (pilot skill's) or want us to forget the lesson they themselves taught the fancied USAF who went back with an entirely new perspective regarding even the 3rd Gen Mig 21 Bisons after Cope India as quoted below from link : The Aviationist » Cope India: when India’s Russian jets achieved a surprising 9:1 kill ratio against U.S. F-15s !!!


IAF jets weren't equipped with the AESA radar either and they were Su-30MKs, less advanced than the MKIs that the Indians did not want to dispatch to Cope India.

The Flanker wasn't the only aircraft that the Eagle's drivers faced in mock air-to-air combat: "The two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MiG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia," Snodgrass explained to AW&ST.

Low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate, acceleration and the helmet mounted sight combined with high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles were among the factors that made the upgraded MiG-21 a deadly adversary for the U.S. F-15s.


The fact that Tejas Mk1 & Mk2 are going to be better than the Bison in all aspects should give the IAF brass/ pilots reason to be more confident in their skills that could even thrash the F-15's with Bisons in 2004!!

Another crucial fact is that PLAAF / PAF's fighter strength will be their indigenous fighters in the near future so the much vaunted claims of IAF about "Threat Perception" have to be taken in the right context by GoI..... Wars are not won only through physical aggression but also economical means and India cannot afford 2 30 Billion USD fighters like Rafale & FGFA!!

To justify my last paragraph the biggest weapon China has over USA is ... China's Treasury Holdings Climb to Record in Government Data - Bloomberg

China's holdings of U.S. Treasuries increased $12.2 billion to a record $1.317 trillion in November, data released on the Treasury Department's website showed.

The figures, scheduled for release at 9 a.m. tomorrow in Washington, were inadvertently posted on the Treasury's website. Japan's holdings rose $12 billion to $1.186 trillion, the figures showed.

China's swelling foreign-exchange reserves, reported today to have reached a world record $3.82 trillion at the end of December, may sustain the nation's appetite for U.S. debt. Capital inflows and intervention to limit gains in the yuan have contributed to China building up currency holdings that are a third of the global total.

"Large interest-rate differential and steady appreciation of the renminbi contributed to large arbitrage inflows into China, a situation made all the more easy with China's increasing financial integration and renminbi internationalization," UBS AG Hong Kong-based economist Wang Tao wrote in a report on China's data.

China's pace of foreign-exchange reserve accumulation will be slower this year due to the Federal Reserve's monetary tapering, likely widening of the yuan's trading band and tighter controls on arbitrage activities, Wang said.


The Chinese are the most craftiest and incisive thinkers and their economical success story is a well thought out process...their indigenous defense production has made them from the largest IMPORTER to the 3rd largest EXPORTER today (How to transform the country from world's largest defence equipment importer to major exporter - The Times of India)


The government's recent decision to deregulate manufacture of a number of items used by the defence forces will result in new players and SMEs entering the sector. Easy entry will result in an increase in the number of manufactures, with the benefit of competition that will improve both quality and cost-effectiveness. This will also encourage them to seek export markets for their products.

Socio-economic growth and a credible defence capability achieved through self-reliance are fundamental for a nation to secure a globally respectable position. In a world where a few developed countries enforce control regimes on defence equipment and technologies, it is imperative for a country like India — a growing economy with formidable capability, to maximise indigenisation and self-reliance in defence equipment. Further, with defence exports becoming an increa-singly effective diplomatic tool in assuring regional peace and secu-rity, it is crucial for India to be-come a global defence exporter.

A small country like Israel, which gained independence at almost the same time as India and with a population less than 1% of India's, today accounts for 10% of total global defence exports. China which until 2006 was the largest importer of defence goods, is today the fifth largest defence equipment exporter. Paradoxically, India, with its huge pool of technically qualified, globally competitive manpower, in dire need for employment for its population, has emerged as the largest importer.

India has all the attributes of becoming a major exporter of defence equipment. Considerable investments have been made over the years in creating indigenous defence manufacturing infrastructure in the form of DRDO labs, DPSUs, ordnance factories, some highly reputed educational institutions and a few industries in the private sector. The large young population can provide skilled, cost-effective manpower for the defence industry and the huge SME base can contribute effectively, both directly as well as in collaboration with large system integrators.

Recent amendments to the defence procurement policy have provided a new thrust for indigenisation. Introduction of major programmes in the 'make' category, allowing participation of Indian public and private industry, is a big step in the right direction towards developing cutting-edge technology. Defence offsets and the proposed liberalisation of FDI in the defence sector must be leveraged judiciously to enhance indigenous capabilities.

The defence industry is capital intensive and characterised by a cyclical nature in order placement for domestic needs; it typically needs a large customer base to be competitive and to sustain business. This can be achieved only when both domestic and export markets are opened for industry.

A well-defined policy to promote defence exports, complying with international agreements such as the Wassenaar Arrangement and Missile Technology Control Regime, will provide the necessary international legitimacy.

It is time now to shed the public vs private sector mindset and consider the entire defence industrial base in India as the 'national defence sector'. It is important that domestic programmes are opened up for competition wherever possible. SMEs capable of developing niche technologies should be encouraged, while the stalled pro-posal to identify platform builders and system integrators — Raksha Udyog Ratnas, must be immediately implemented.

To safeguard the interests of the defence industry in the private sector, and to derive the maximum benefit from synergies, it is essential to eliminate the conflict of interest inherent in the current structure of ministry of defence. The department of defence production must be made independently responsible for equitably addressing the concerns and synergising strengths of the country's defence industrial base, including the private as well as public sectors. It should also be held accountable for achieving preset time-bound targets for indigenisation and exports.

Globally, respective governments strongly promote sales of their defence exporting firms without discriminating between private and public sectors. UK Trade and Invest and SIBAT-Israel, are good examples. It is common for heads of state of developed nations to actively promote sale of their defence products. In 2013, for the first time, top officials of DRDO led an Indian defence industry delegation to ADEX 2013 in Seoul. Such initiatives should be encouraged and strongly supported by the political leadership.

Increased emphasis on R&D and innovation is vital for achieving self-reliance in defence equipment. In order to realise the untapped potential in indigenous technologies, DRDO must be authorised to form partnerships with organisations of their choice for cutting-edge technology deve-lopment, while simultaneously allowing use of their facilities on commercial terms by companies in the defence field.

Defence exports are often used as a diplomatic tool either through supplies as goodwill gestures or through soft loans and lines of credit. This policy has been used extensively and effectively by China to expand its presence in the Indian Ocean Region, Africa and Latin America. India should evolve its own "Integrated Defence Production and Export Policy" learning from the success stories of countries like China, Israel, South Africa and South Korea.

India's approach to defence exports will be guided by changes in the geopolitical situation, as we build stronger diplomatic ties, particularly with nations in the Indian Ocean Region. If the government and national defence industry embrace the challenge, India can not only effectively meet domestic needs but also emerge as a major exporter of defence products. We need a major thrust — a national mission on defence equipment exports.


So all my dear fellow Indians who want to see India as a major power in the future please read and learn from the tiny Israel, how it survives in the most hostile neighbourhood and how China counters the mighty USA with its domestic weapons!! These two are case in points for us to wake up... IAF only thinks about imported weapons and thats why Rafale with its 30 Billion USD price tag is a strain on out already strained economy and does nt justify a 4.5 Gen Fighter purchase..... IF we really have to invest why not invest in the FGFA a 5th Gen Fighter to counter the PLAAF and make mince meat of PAF!!

The money saved by cancelling Rafale should go into a spanking new and high production Tejas Line and not the old Jag production line...after all the delay in SP's is due to HAL's cramped productions!
The money saved should increase the FGFA numbers instead of the reduction that IAF wants to balance the Rafale deal... an absurd trade off 5th Gen fighter to a 4.5 gen fighter!!
The money saved should also give us the AMCA to replace the Mig 29's & Mirages in the future... I m sure Russians will be happy to help with the domestic engine if we give them couple of billion USD's saved on Rafale!!

MORE OVER THE MONEY SAVED SHOULD BE INVESTED IN THE DOMESTIC ARMS INDUSTRY/ INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT SO THAT WE TOO BECOME EXPORTERS AND THEREBY HELP LIFT UP OUR ECONOMY AND THE EMPLOYMENT GENERATED THERE OFF!!

I hope Modi Govt does whatever it take.....revamps the HAL, OFB, DRDO et all and tell IAF & IA to follow the IN model!!
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
The IAF is a past master in the "Stall & Spin" tactics....it wants to bury the Tejas Mk 1 & wants to go for Mk2 which is its Stall Tactics and I can bet that when Mk2 takes to the skies it will bury it saying its out of relevance what with Rafale & FGFA in the scenario.... when Mk2 arrives it will start hankering for AMCA saying only AMCA fulfills its requirements not even Mk2!!

The whole IAF drama is coz if it starts inducting the Tejas Mk 1 the GoI will slash the numbers if not cancel the Rafale all together!!

As for the mentality of IAF towards Tejas Mk2....they dint even want to support/fund it forget about inducting it in the future..... now when the Youngest Brother (read I.N. ) is getting a better powered plane their superiority complex gets shaken into such a fury that they have put logic to rest by denoting Tejas Mk1 a Lean In Trainer !! :shocked:

I am not in a mood to point out all the tech achievements/advancements we have achieved through Tejas Mk1 to IAF but I certainly hope that Modi Govt. will not let the whole Marut drama unfold all over again but will fund not only the Kaveri but "encourage" IAF to induct Tejas Mk1 & Mk2 in numbers.

The fundamental hard facts of life is that self reliance is the best self defense !! This is the reason why I admire I.N. a lot coz even though get the lowest percentage of budget yet they have realised the value of self reliance and have taken concrete steps towards realising it. By the way IN's role in future will surpass IAF & IA's coz IOR is going to be much bigger and volatile theater compared to anything else.
USA & China know this that is the thought behind the "Pivot to Asia" tactics...US wants to strengthen its presence and the Chinese does nt want to let that happen coz 60% of world trade/commerce flows to IOR!!!

To put the self reliance in perspective we ought to look at China that is challenging the might of USA with only 150 Russian Sukhoi's (Su27 & 30's) which is like less than 10% of its entire fighter/interceptor/strike component (1500 +)!! The rest all being indigenous fighters!! Recently and in near past China has taken a very aggressive stance towards USA (Mid-air posturing sparks US-China verbal volley | idrw.org) and what does it have in its arsenal?? Even though IAF has 250 + Su-30 MKI's which is arguably the best Air Dominance in the World we still want more!!

I am surprised with IAF's "west is best" attitude coz they either dont trust the man - machine combo (pilot skill's) or want us to forget the lesson they themselves taught the fancied USAF who went back with an entirely new perspective regarding even the 3rd Gen Mig 21 Bisons after Cope India as quoted below from link : The Aviationist � Cope India: when India's Russian jets achieved a surprising 9:1 kill ratio against U.S. F-15s !!!


IAF jets weren't equipped with the AESA radar either and they were Su-30MKs, less advanced than the MKIs that the Indians did not want to dispatch to Cope India.

The Flanker wasn't the only aircraft that the Eagle's drivers faced in mock air-to-air combat: "The two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MiG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia," Snodgrass explained to AW&ST.

Low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate, acceleration and the helmet mounted sight combined with high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles were among the factors that made the upgraded MiG-21 a deadly adversary for the U.S. F-15s.


The fact that Tejas Mk1 & Mk2 are going to be better than the Bison in all aspects should give the IAF brass/ pilots reason to be more confident in their skills that could even thrash the F-15's with Bisons in 2004!!

Another crucial fact is that PLAAF / PAF's fighter strength will be their indigenous fighters in the near future so the much vaunted claims of IAF about "Threat Perception" have to be taken in the right context by GoI..... Wars are not won only through physical aggression but also economical means and India cannot afford 2 30 Billion USD fighters like Rafale & FGFA!!

To justify my last paragraph the biggest weapon China has over USA is ... China's Treasury Holdings Climb to Record in Government Data - Bloomberg

China's holdings of U.S. Treasuries increased $12.2 billion to a record $1.317 trillion in November, data released on the Treasury Department's website showed.

The figures, scheduled for release at 9 a.m. tomorrow in Washington, were inadvertently posted on the Treasury's website. Japan's holdings rose $12 billion to $1.186 trillion, the figures showed.

China's swelling foreign-exchange reserves, reported today to have reached a world record $3.82 trillion at the end of December, may sustain the nation's appetite for U.S. debt. Capital inflows and intervention to limit gains in the yuan have contributed to China building up currency holdings that are a third of the global total.

"Large interest-rate differential and steady appreciation of the renminbi contributed to large arbitrage inflows into China, a situation made all the more easy with China's increasing financial integration and renminbi internationalization," UBS AG Hong Kong-based economist Wang Tao wrote in a report on China's data.

China's pace of foreign-exchange reserve accumulation will be slower this year due to the Federal Reserve's monetary tapering, likely widening of the yuan's trading band and tighter controls on arbitrage activities, Wang said.


The Chinese are the most craftiest and incisive thinkers and their economical success story is a well thought out process...their indigenous defense production has made them from the largest IMPORTER to the 3rd largest EXPORTER today (How to transform the country from world's largest defence equipment importer to major exporter - The Times of India)


The government's recent decision to deregulate manufacture of a number of items used by the defence forces will result in new players and SMEs entering the sector. Easy entry will result in an increase in the number of manufactures, with the benefit of competition that will improve both quality and cost-effectiveness. This will also encourage them to seek export markets for their products.

Socio-economic growth and a credible defence capability achieved through self-reliance are fundamental for a nation to secure a globally respectable position. In a world where a few developed countries enforce control regimes on defence equipment and technologies, it is imperative for a country like India — a growing economy with formidable capability, to maximise indigenisation and self-reliance in defence equipment. Further, with defence exports becoming an increa-singly effective diplomatic tool in assuring regional peace and secu-rity, it is crucial for India to be-come a global defence exporter.

A small country like Israel, which gained independence at almost the same time as India and with a population less than 1% of India's, today accounts for 10% of total global defence exports. China which until 2006 was the largest importer of defence goods, is today the fifth largest defence equipment exporter. Paradoxically, India, with its huge pool of technically qualified, globally competitive manpower, in dire need for employment for its population, has emerged as the largest importer.

India has all the attributes of becoming a major exporter of defence equipment. Considerable investments have been made over the years in creating indigenous defence manufacturing infrastructure in the form of DRDO labs, DPSUs, ordnance factories, some highly reputed educational institutions and a few industries in the private sector. The large young population can provide skilled, cost-effective manpower for the defence industry and the huge SME base can contribute effectively, both directly as well as in collaboration with large system integrators.

Recent amendments to the defence procurement policy have provided a new thrust for indigenisation. Introduction of major programmes in the 'make' category, allowing participation of Indian public and private industry, is a big step in the right direction towards developing cutting-edge technology. Defence offsets and the proposed liberalisation of FDI in the defence sector must be leveraged judiciously to enhance indigenous capabilities.

The defence industry is capital intensive and characterised by a cyclical nature in order placement for domestic needs; it typically needs a large customer base to be competitive and to sustain business. This can be achieved only when both domestic and export markets are opened for industry.

A well-defined policy to promote defence exports, complying with international agreements such as the Wassenaar Arrangement and Missile Technology Control Regime, will provide the necessary international legitimacy.

It is time now to shed the public vs private sector mindset and consider the entire defence industrial base in India as the 'national defence sector'. It is important that domestic programmes are opened up for competition wherever possible. SMEs capable of developing niche technologies should be encouraged, while the stalled pro-posal to identify platform builders and system integrators — Raksha Udyog Ratnas, must be immediately implemented.

To safeguard the interests of the defence industry in the private sector, and to derive the maximum benefit from synergies, it is essential to eliminate the conflict of interest inherent in the current structure of ministry of defence. The department of defence production must be made independently responsible for equitably addressing the concerns and synergising strengths of the country's defence industrial base, including the private as well as public sectors. It should also be held accountable for achieving preset time-bound targets for indigenisation and exports.

Globally, respective governments strongly promote sales of their defence exporting firms without discriminating between private and public sectors. UK Trade and Invest and SIBAT-Israel, are good examples. It is common for heads of state of developed nations to actively promote sale of their defence products. In 2013, for the first time, top officials of DRDO led an Indian defence industry delegation to ADEX 2013 in Seoul. Such initiatives should be encouraged and strongly supported by the political leadership.

Increased emphasis on R&D and innovation is vital for achieving self-reliance in defence equipment. In order to realise the untapped potential in indigenous technologies, DRDO must be authorised to form partnerships with organisations of their choice for cutting-edge technology deve-lopment, while simultaneously allowing use of their facilities on commercial terms by companies in the defence field.

Defence exports are often used as a diplomatic tool either through supplies as goodwill gestures or through soft loans and lines of credit. This policy has been used extensively and effectively by China to expand its presence in the Indian Ocean Region, Africa and Latin America. India should evolve its own "Integrated Defence Production and Export Policy" learning from the success stories of countries like China, Israel, South Africa and South Korea.

India's approach to defence exports will be guided by changes in the geopolitical situation, as we build stronger diplomatic ties, particularly with nations in the Indian Ocean Region. If the government and national defence industry embrace the challenge, India can not only effectively meet domestic needs but also emerge as a major exporter of defence products. We need a major thrust — a national mission on defence equipment exports.


So all my dear fellow Indians who want to see India as a major power in the future please read and learn from the tiny Israel, how it survives in the most hostile neighbourhood and how China counters the mighty USA with its domestic weapons!! These two are case in points for us to wake up... IAF only thinks about imported weapons and thats why Rafale with its 30 Billion USD price tag is a strain on out already strained economy and does nt justify a 4.5 Gen Fighter purchase..... IF we really have to invest why not invest in the FGFA a 5th Gen Fighter to counter the PLAAF and make mince meat of PAF!!

The money saved by cancelling Rafale should go into a spanking new and high production Tejas Line and not the old Jag production line...after all the delay in SP's is due to HAL's cramped productions!
The money saved should increase the FGFA numbers instead of the reduction that IAF wants to balance the Rafale deal... an absurd trade off 5th Gen fighter to a 4.5 gen fighter!!
The money saved should also give us the AMCA to replace the Mig 29's & Mirages in the future... I m sure Russians will be happy to help with the domestic engine if we give them couple of billion USD's saved on Rafale!!

MORE OVER THE MONEY SAVED SHOULD BE INVESTED IN THE DOMESTIC ARMS INDUSTRY/ INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT SO THAT WE TOO BECOME EXPORTERS AND THEREBY HELP LIFT UP OUR ECONOMY AND THE EMPLOYMENT GENERATED THERE OFF!!

I hope Modi Govt does whatever it take.....revamps the HAL, OFB, DRDO et all and tell IAF & IA to follow the IN model!!
Fighter planes cant pull 8Gs, 9Gs with full external load of weapons and external fuel tanks.

So no matter

how good the plane,

how heavy a plane ,

how many BVR missiles it can carry,

how much tech it has,

it has to shed all its external weapons as the first rule before taking evasive actions.

because most of the 9G airshow stunts can be pulled only in full monty, i.e, clean config with no external weapons(or at the most with a few WVR missiles).

So effectively the mission is over once you are found out and fired at.

100 million , 200 million or 26 million may be the cost of the plane. but it has to drop its LGBs excess fuel tanks, fire off its BVR missiles before taking high G evasive turns.

Because there is no guarantee that counter measures will work in tomorrow's EW environs. A skilled pilot and a costly plane can not be risked on the reliability of the electronic counter measures against BVR missiles alone.He must be ready to take those 9 g turns to save his plane and himself.

Then WVR battle follows.

So it does not matter whether the enemy is a light fighter or heavy fighter, number of fighters in air is non negotiable.

Thats why there is always a school of though that strongly believes that investing more and more in a single platform, making it costly and heavy with attendant higher detection possibilities against higher wavelength and QWIP equipped IR missile seekers is an unrealistic exercise grounded in fantasy realm of all BVR fights.

Thats why I said number of pylons, thousands of Kms of ranges, tons and tons of weapons carried alone may not always be the winner against well equipped smaller modern 4.5th gen lighter fighters which have fewer BVR missiles and lesser detection possibilities across the spectrum of detection techniques .

And lesser cost more in number for the same budget smaller fighters will be at four places at the same time, while four times costly heavy fighter can be only at one place for the same cost, which makes a world of difference in the WVR battle that happens after all the BVR missiles are fired.

So cost effective high in number tejas mk1 and mk2 fleets will be a valuable asset in any air defence battles against swarm attacks on the first day of the war, where one's few in number costly imported medium and heavy fighters with heavy running cost can not give all round protection round the clock.

So fantasies about bombing deep in Tibet with 200 million dollar per plane set piece battles should take a backseat compared to the immediate and urgent need of higher number tejas mk1 and mk2 fleet in IAF.

Combined with next gen UCAVs , and mini AWACS SU-30 MKI,and EW assets they will give us fool proof defence from any heavy fighter strike force every day ,every hour of any two front war IAF will face in the future , because cost wise

Thts why IAF wanted 126 mirage-2000s in the first place till 2004, eventhough they had SU-30 MKI as a heavy fighter in their fleet already.

tejas mk2 will come closer to gripen E standard, so it will be a good asset to invest in higher numbers for the safety of indian skies,considering that AMCA engine will most likely have the same form fit as tejas mk2 engine, in future it is possible to make it entirely indigenous with engine tech from AMCA program giving us a fully modern 4.5th gen fighter free of foreign interference.

No 20 billion dollar 126 fighter imported fighter deal will give us this flexibility, unless we blindly believe in the folly called deep TOT and 70 percent TOT, which are all mere eyewash.
 

Twinblade

New Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
1,578
Likes
3,231
Country flag
Saurav Jha: Dr Chander, it seems that in-house design for the Tejas Mk-II is complete and ADA is moving towards design validation?

Avinash Chander: Yes.

Saurav Jha: So how will a partner for design validation be chosen?

Avinash Chander: At the moment we are only looking for a consultant, like we had for Mk-I. We are not really looking at a partner for production. But if a viable interesting offer comes in, I am sure the government will take a look at it.

Saurav Jha: Even on a bilateral basis?

Avinash Chander: Even on a bilateral basis. But irrespective of that the program will continue. It is not dependent on any international collaboration.
Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with the Chief of DRDO, Avinash Chander -Part II
 

Dhairya Yadav

New Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Messages
481
Likes
141
I somewhere read that due to american engine on tejas, We would need permit of US before exporting Tejas to foreign customers. Is this true?
 

Defcon 1

New Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Messages
2,195
Likes
1,842
Country flag
I somewhere read that due to american engine on tejas, We would need permit of US before exporting Tejas to foreign customers. Is this true?
Yes, Americans always put strong conditions on their exports. They also wanted assurance that Tejas will not be used for nuke delivery before exporting the engines.
 

mattster

Respected Member
New Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,171
Likes
870
Country flag
No Country can have success in designing complex defense equipment unless they have built the technical by building commercial equipment.
If you're private industries don't have the skills...then your public enterprises won't be able to ramp up.

This is the reason why both China and India have both struggled to develop everything from aircraft engines, to tanks, to submarines.
China may have lots of manufacturing experience in low tech but not much in hitech.

If you can't design your own car engine without foreign collaboration.....how are you going to designa tank engine.
 

p2prada

New Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017
No Country can have success in designing complex defense equipment unless they have built the technical by building commercial equipment.
If you're private industries don't have the skills...then your public enterprises won't be able to ramp up.

This is the reason why both China and India have both struggled to develop everything from aircraft engines, to tanks, to submarines.
China may have lots of manufacturing experience in low tech but not much in hitech.

If you can't design your own car engine without foreign collaboration.....how are you going to designa tank engine.
That's why I drive a Russian car and sometimes take an Israeli bus to the office.

Civilian technology has nothing to do with military technology. Sukhoi has only recently entered the civilian market, more to do with the UAC's new policies.

Lockheed Martin doesn't make cars and buses. Their only civilian expertise is in making Atlas rockets for civilian launches, which is also used for military launches of satellites, apart from making satellites for civilian use.
 

mattster

Respected Member
New Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,171
Likes
870
Country flag
That's why I drive a Russian car and sometimes take an Israeli bus to the office.

Civilian technology has nothing to do with military technology. Sukhoi has only recently entered the civilian market, more to do with the UAC's new policies.

Lockheed Martin doesn't make cars and buses. Their only civilian expertise is in making Atlas rockets for civilian launches, which is also used for military launches of satellites, apart from making satellites for civilian use.
If you can build a jet engine for a civilian jetliner - then you can build one for a fighter. GE, Pratt Whitney, and RR all build civilian engines and fighter engines.
Otherwise you spend 30 years like China and India and still don't have a product.

The same thing applies for everything from electronics, to components, to composites.
That is unless you want to spend billions of government dollars on basic research and reinventing the wheel.
 

p2prada

New Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017
If you can build a jet engine for a civilian jetliner - then you can build one for a fighter. GE, Pratt Whitney, and RR all build civilian engines and fighter engines.
Otherwise you spend 30 years like China and India and still don't have a product.

The same thing applies for everything from electronics, to components, to composites.
The issues with India and China is very different. India and China started late, especially India.

Russian and Israeli industries are very different, their civilian industry is inferior to their military industry.

That is unless you want to spend billions of government dollars on basic research and reinventing the wheel.
That's the plan.

While China managed it with reverse engineering, we are making do with joint ventures.

The plan is to throw money and develop minimum capabilities, but we all know it will take a long time. The success or failure of the civilian industry has nothing to do with it.

In 10 years the Chinese would have caught up with the Americans. 10 years after that India will have caught up with the Americans. After that it is just a game of staying apace, taking the lead in some fields and lagging behind in some fields. Billions are required.
 

Articles

Top