ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[no smoking]

Well India produces the most Maths PHDs now. I can say that India has superior skills in simulation compared to Russians.

Don't know where this "India produces the most Maths PHDs" comes from. But the simple facts are:
1.all of these Indian maths PHDs and their professors lack experiences and knowledge in aerodynamic area. They just started R&D in this field in last 90s while Russians scientists had accumulated plenty over hundreds different plane designs in the last 70 years;
2. India is still in the middle of building her aviation experimental infrastructure while Russians had these equipment for over half century.

 

[garg_bharat]

Don't know where this "India produces the most Maths PHDs" comes from. But the simple facts are:
1.all of these Indian maths PHDs and their professors lack experiences and knowledge in aerodynamic area. They just started R&D in this field in last 90s while Russians scientists had accumulated plenty over hundreds different plane designs in the last 70 years;
2. India is still in the middle of building her aviation experimental infrastructure while Russians had these equipment for over half century.

There is no need to compare Russia and India.
There is a specialized agency called ADA which is working on fighter projects.

Plus R&D is done by HAL design bureau and several companies in the public sector and private sector.

ADA has twenty years of experience in building and refining HAL Tejas. Obvious they have accumulated a lot of data. You may not know but Tejas had prototype vehicles, and limited series production models before series production was started. Over thirty Tejas aircraft are flying today, out of which PV and LSP are used exclusively by ADA for testing new LRUs.

 

[no smoking]

This is an unfair comparison. The Su-30 MKI has a lot more upgrades than just canards. They also needed 3D thrust vectoring, and newer avionics, along with the canards. We can't say for sure that the delay was due to canards.

First of all, there was an error in my previous post. The first flight of Su-30MKI was in 1997, the agreement with India was signed in 1995.


The testing 3D thrust vectoring engine AL-31FP was already started with experimental Su-35 project, the first flight was 1996.


The newer avionics doesn’t have significant impact on the aerodynamics shape and the work of part was actually continued and matured after 2000.


There was no delay in Su-30MKI. 5 Years is an ordinary time required for Russians since most of the technologies in this plane are already tested or being tested in other program.


So, from Russian side, they can cut the time by carrying out multiple projects while India has resources only enough for one.

It does. The Tejas Flight Control Laws were extensively tested in simulations first. We have had better computers than the Russians for ages now. We have ISI which is one of the premier statistics institutes. We have much better computers today than those from the 90s. And a much better understanding of aerodynamics. Considering the first flight for MWF is in 2021, it isn't a stretch to believe it will be ready by 2025 for at least limited series production.

Again, computer is only one small factor in the simulation. The key part is the knowledge of aerodynamic and plane design experience. Those are the basis of simulation package.

Does India have better understanding of aerodynamics than 1990s Russia? Absolutely Not. Neither does Chinese, nor Japanese. The knowledge of aerodynamics is the core of aviation industry, no one gives away. You have to accumulate it by wind tunnel experiment and actual flying at the cost of time and money. Computer won’t help much here. Japan has learnt it from their failure.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

First of all, there was an error in my previous post. The first
Again, computer is only one small factor in the simulation. The key part is the knowledge of aerodynamic and plane design experience. Those are the basis of simulation package.

Does India have better understanding of aerodynamics than 1990s Russia? Absolutely Not. Neither does Chinese, nor Japanese. The knowledge of aerodynamics is the core of aviation industry, no one gives away. You have to accumulate it by wind tunnel experiment and actual flying at the cost of time and money. Computer won’t help much here. Japan has learnt it from their failure.

What do you mean by "knowledge of aerodynamics"? You do realise that ADA has been publishing papers on Aerodynamics for a while now? And that we can read the papers published by authors world wide on the same? To think that India today lacks the capabilities to simulate canards is hilarious. We've already done wind tunnel testing.

And to think that China doesn't have a better plane industry that Russia is silly. When was the last time Russia actually built a new plane? The Su-57 is the only truly new design they have to show in 20 years. They lack anything. In the same time we have Tejas, and are now proceeding with MWF and AMCA. The Chinese have the J-10, J-20, FC-1 and FC-31.

Anyway, this is irrelevant. The MWF program's first flight is in 2021. The ADA is pretty confident in their capabilities, so we won't see a tech demonstrator, they said that we'll see 2 pre-production aircraft and 2 limited series production aircraft.

And we do have multiple programs running simultaneously today. There's Ghatak, MWF, AMCA, all headed by ADA.

 

[no smoking]

There is no need to compare Russia and India.

There is a specialized agency called ADA which is working on fighter projects.


Plus R&D is done by HAL design bureau and several companies in the public sector and private sector.


ADA has twenty years of experience in building and refining HAL Tejas. Obvious they have accumulated a lot of data.

I guess you probably don’t know anything about aerodynamic: adding canards will significantly change the whole aerodynamic shape of the plane. ADA will need: 1. R&D on canards aerodynamics features; 2. R&D on canards impact on Tejas original design. It is almost like that they need to start from ground again.

You may not know but Tejas had prototype vehicles, and limited series production models before series production was started. Over thirty Tejas aircraft are flying today, out of which PV and LSP are used exclusively by ADA for testing new LRUs.

Dude, that is standard parts of any plane development project. I am not sure why you think it is worth to bring up?

 

[gryphus-scarface]

I guess you probably don’t know anything about aerodynamic: adding canards will significantly change the whole aerodynamic shape of the plane. ADA will need: 1. R&D on canards aerodynamics features; 2. R&D on canards impact on Tejas original design. It is almost like that they need to start from ground again.

Yes, adding canards changes a lot of things. It changes the behaviour of wind flow dramatically. That is the entire point of having it. However your accusation that it is impossibly hard for India to simulate it is silly. There is no demonstrable evidence that canards delay development. The first Flanker to have canards was the Su-27M in 1988. We definitely have much better technology and knowledge now than they had then.

 

[garg_bharat]

I guess you probably don’t know anything about aerodynamic: adding canards will significantly change the whole aerodynamic shape of the plane. ADA will need: 1. R&D on canards aerodynamics features; 2. R&D on canards impact on Tejas original design. It is almost like that they need to start from ground again.

Dude, that is standard parts of any plane development project. I am not sure why you think it is worth to bring up?

I brought PV and LSP to explain to you that ADA has access to 14 flyable air-frames for testing stuff. This is a substantial number.

While you are repeatedly highlighting canards as a risk to the project, that is not the case. If ADA has brought out a timeline, it means it has completed certain milestones and has substantial government support.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

First of all, there was an error in my previous post. The first flight of Su-30MKI was in 1997, the agreement with India was signed in 1995.

That is what I pointed out - Su30 MKI was not delayed despite Indian request to add canards

There was no delay in Su-30MKI. 5 Years is an ordinary time required for Russians since most of the technologies in this plane are already tested or being tested in other program.

So, you understand that canard addition does not necessarily cause delays?

So, from Russian side, they can cut the time by carrying out multiple projects while India has resources only enough for one.

It requires bright minds, not large amount of natural resource to get R&D done. India has the basic infrastructure needed to make planes and has bright minds in addition to experience of 20+ years designing Tejas

Again, computer is only one small factor in the simulation. The key part is the knowledge of aerodynamic and plane design experience. Those are the basis of simulation package.

Does India have better understanding of aerodynamics than 1990s Russia? Absolutely Not. Neither does Chinese, nor Japanese. The knowledge of aerodynamics is the core of aviation industry, no one gives away. You have to accumulate it by wind tunnel experiment and actual flying at the cost of time and money. Computer won’t help much here. Japan has learnt it from their failure.

Actually, the knowledge you can gain with computers is 5-10 times more than what you can gain without. So, India does have more knowledge than 1990s Russia. Computers add significantly to the ease of understanding things and remembering and recollecting them.

I guess you probably don’t know anything about aerodynamic: adding canards will significantly change the whole aerodynamic shape of the plane. ADA will need: 1. R&D on canards aerodynamics features; 2. R&D on canards impact on Tejas original design. It is almost like that they need to start from ground again.

Su30 MKI example was given for this very reason. Tejas was tested with canards in early 2000s but rejected as the plane was too small and canards would not be suitable. So, India did collect data of canards and its wind tunnel tests long back. Now, the plane has increased in size and hence canards are feasible.

 

[no smoking]

Yes, adding canards changes a lot of things. It changes the behaviour of wind flow dramatically. That is the entire point of having it. However your accusation that it is impossibly hard for India to simulate it is silly.

Wow, where did I say that it is impossibly hard for India to simulate it?
Simulation is a must for any plane project in today. But until today, people's understanding about aerodynamic is still very limited, so simulation still can't replace the actual test flying. Basically, the accuracy of testing is: computer simulation < wind tunnel < actual flying of full size demonstrator.

There is no demonstrable evidence that canards delay development.

That is not delay, that is ordinary time for testing of a new design.

The first Flanker to have canards was the Su-27M in 1988. We definitely have much better technology and knowledge now than they had then.

Sure if you say so.

 

[Steven Rogers]

I guess you probably don’t know anything about aerodynamic: adding canards will significantly change the whole aerodynamic shape of the plane. ADA will need: 1. R&D on canards aerodynamics features; 2. R&D on canards impact on Tejas original design. It is almost like that they need to start from ground again.





Dude, that is standard parts of any plane development project. I am not sure why you think it is worth to bring up?

I guess what you stated is already mentioned in an article written by IR and jaish of brf for delhidefencereview, give it a read and it may solve your tickle.

 

[no smoking]

And to think that China doesn't have a better plane industry that Russia is silly.

Well, you can tell that to those Chinese experts in aviation industry, because they said it themselves.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Well, you can tell that to those Chinese experts in aviation industry, because they said it themselves.

Experts around the world are too ignorant to see everything. Russians have never invested in various designs elements, that means those who have invested are ahead than russkies in that field. Russia havr based most of their fighters around single base design with improvements. Chinese for ex have invested in delta, su type and western style stealth aircraft along with delta stealth, that means apart from that su type aircrafts, russians have little idea of what chinese now have in other designs.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Well, you can tell that to those Chinese experts in aviation industry, because they said it themselves.

Do your experts account for the fact that the Su-57 is more like the F/A-18E/F in terms of stealth, than the F/A-22? It lacks serpentine intakes and other basic features. Or do they consider the fact that China has built 2 5gen planes (J-20, FC-31) irrelevant? How about the fact that Russia is still tweaking the same old MiG 29 and Su-27 base models to get as much as possible out of them, while China has the J-10, J20 and FC-31? How about the fact that Russia simply can't fund its plane development much longer? Sorry, but Russia is no longer where it once was. China is genuinely ahead of them, and the gap will only grow as China's economy improves.

 

[Trololo]

Don't know where this "India produces the most Maths PHDs" comes from. But the simple facts are:
1.all of these Indian maths PHDs and their professors lack experiences and knowledge in aerodynamic area. They just started R&D in this field in last 90s while Russians scientists had accumulated plenty over hundreds different plane designs in the last 70 years;
2. India is still in the middle of building her aviation experimental infrastructure while Russians had these equipment for over half century.

Also the rank and file of these PhDs are bullshitters. Only some of the top universities in India produce good PhDs. Note that we do not spend enough on basic sciences. Neither do we encourage it. Pursuing BSc Maths is looked down upon as compared to a BTech.

 

[garg_bharat]

Also the rank and file of these PhDs are bullshitters. Only some of the top universities in India produce good PhDs. Note that we do not spend enough on basic sciences. Neither do we encourage it. Pursuing BSc Maths is looked down upon as compared to a BTech.

You are out of touch of ground realities.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Also the rank and file of these PhDs are bullshitters. Only some of the top universities in India produce good PhDs. Note that we do not spend enough on basic sciences. Neither do we encourage it. Pursuing BSc Maths is looked down upon as compared to a BTech.

Right. That's why getting into ISI is so hard, and why India performs so well in International Mathematics Olympaid.
https://www.imo-official.org/countr...rrank&order=desc&gender=hide&nameform=western

Don't make claims without knowing the realities.

 

[Trololo]

Right. That's why getting into ISI is so hard, and why India performs so well in International Mathematics Olympaid.
https://www.imo-official.org/countr...rrank&order=desc&gender=hide&nameform=western

Don't make claims without knowing the realities.

Don't blabber about what you don't know about. Indian TEAMS don't figure consistently in the top 5 of any international olympiads or even the ACM ICPC. Individual performances always show the outliers of the distribution. The average lies in the middle of the bell curve. The further skewed that bell curve is to the good outliers, the better is the quality of the average individual. Even if getting into ISI is hard, it does not necessarily correlate with top notch research output. And it is research output (and its quality) that matters the most. You are unfortunately delusional with a false sense of superiority. We as a country are improving. And will continue to improve. Its just that despite our population of young people we are not where we should be. And that is what is sad.

 

[Trololo]

You are out of touch of ground realities.

With all due respect, no sir. Indian PhDs are of top quality mostly in the IISC, the top IITs and NITs. And the ISIs of course. But none of these institutes have produced ground breaking research work yet. That is the problem. Also, academic dishonesty in this country is rampant. That includes cheating as well as plagiarism. This mars the quality of the academic work.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

With all due respect, no sir. Indian PhDs are of top quality mostly in the IISC, the top IITs and NITs. And the ISIs of course. But none of these institutes have produced ground breaking research work yet. That is the problem. Also, academic dishonesty in this country is rampant. That includes cheating as well as plagiarism. This mars the quality of the academic work.

Nothing can be done if politics is bad. Congress sabotaged everything and hence nothing could be done.

 

[Trololo]

Nothing can be done if politics is bad. Congress sabotaged everything and hence nothing could be done.

True. Congress has been the mothership of this mess. Them & the CPM destroyed the best universities in WB and other places with their vicious student politics (using arts department students in particular). The IITs were founded with noble intentions. But their constant underfunding and lack of research money + facilities blunted their edge. Also, because of shoshalijm, scientifically intensive and risk taking private industry didn't take off in this country. Hence there was (and still is) not a whole lot of industry-academia r&d collaboration to make world class products. We feel the after effects of this today for example when Chinese Huawei can make end to end 5G equipment and top notch phones, whereas our own Tejas Networks is just slowly getting started.