ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
Status
Not open for further replies.

DivineHeretic

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,153
Likes
1,897
Country flag
TEJAS mk-2 can do sead missions in the forward area, which places no restrictions on it's time on station,

Most of the enemy airdefence installations will be concentrated here and are well within the unrefuelled range of tejas,

And the lower RCS of tejas will help in shortening the reaction time of enemy air defense is my opinion,

If it carries only stremlined missiles , I don't think the increase in RCs will be 10 times or 20 times,

If conformal fuel tanks are added it won't contribute much to RCS,

If it carries non streamlined heavy RCS unfriendly external stores it's RCs will increase heavily,

Agreed it's RCS will increase, but the proportionate increase for other heavy fighters like SUKHOI will still be many fold,



If you want to do it deep inside enemy territory Rafale is the candidate,
Otherwise risks are the same

All fighters on SEAD mission need Ew craft support is my assumption, their own radar and jamming abilities won''t do, however superior compared to enemy fighters,

Because these are the first missions carried into well defended enemy airspace in the first day of the battle,

So they will have to rely on EW support besides their own ew suite is my opinion.
Another point to be noted is that pak has a very weak SAM based air defence grid. Their most capable SAM is the Spada 2000 which is infact a short range SAM system, meaning that the IAF could in theory launch SEAD munitions outside the engagement envelope of the SAM. Even though the PAF has radars and AWACS capable of spotting our aircraft from a medium to long range they dont have the SAM or ground based air defence to take action. Mind you that in the initial phase all PAF BVR capable platforms will be engaging or preparing to engage in air to air combat against our frontline aircraft, leaving their AD from strike aircraft to the SAMs.
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,762
Country flag
I agree with you totally that the LCA cannot be used as a dedicated SEAD pkatform, what I can expect it to do is an unexpected series of unexpected initial strikes at the beginning to stun the enemy. Also one thing I will repeat is that the Pak SAM envelope is rather limited, both in range and more importantly in altitude. It is possible to simply fly over this envelope and conduct SEAD strikes to the targets using the KH series of Anti radiation missiles, which unfortunately the PAF cannot replicate on our SAM sites. Note that this will not work on the Chinese.
See external conformal fuel tanks and Minimal RCS external weapon bays are being developed for a high RCS fighter like US Airforce F-15 to fly as stealthily as possible in first day of the war,

They are aerodynamically configured and won''t add much to clean configuration RCS of alredy lesser RCs fighters like RAFALE and TEJAS mk-2,

So there is no restriction to use TEJAS mk-2 with it's 5 ton weapon load capability in forward areas in sead mission in required numbers,

However it is IAf's choice to choose which one they are comfortable with,

In future most of these missions will be carried out by stealth UCAVS like AURA considering the risks associated with these missions and the need for lowest possible RCS.
 

DivineHeretic

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,153
Likes
1,897
Country flag
See external conformal fuel tanks and Minimal RCS external weapon bays are being developed for a high RCS fighter like US Airforce F-15 to fly as stealthily as possible in first day of the war,

They are aerodynamically configured and won''t add much to clean configuration RCS of alredy lesser RCs fighters like RAFALE and TEJAS mk-2,

So there is no restriction to use TEJAS mk-2 with it's 5 ton weapon load capability in forward areas in sead mission in required numbers,

However it is IAf's choice to choose which one they are comfortable with,

In future most of these missions will be carried out by stealth UCAVS like AURA considering the risks associated with these missions and the need for lowest possible RCS.
True that. Bit actually the air launched Brahmos does provide us with a new set of capabilities, which I'm sure the IAF picked up too,which is why they are so interested in this missile, even though storm shadow or scalp are due to arrive in their inventory.
The brahmos sensor/guidance unit can be replaced with a pasive radar homing seeker and/or a GPS/GLONASS seeker. The speed of the brahmos coupled with the fact that brahmos is very difficult to isolate from ground clutter and intercept at low altitudes can be used to take out the tracking and engagement radars of the SAM system, thus disabling them. This is the same principle of the AKG 400 missiles
 

SATISH

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
2,038
Likes
303
Country flag
See external conformal fuel tanks and Minimal RCS external weapon bays are being developed for a high RCS fighter like US Airforce F-15 to fly as stealthily as possible in first day of the war,

They are aerodynamically configured and won''t add much to clean configuration RCS of alredy lesser RCs fighters like RAFALE and TEJAS mk-2,

So there is no restriction to use TEJAS mk-2 with it's 5 ton weapon load capability in forward areas in sead mission in required numbers,

However it is IAf's choice to choose which one they are comfortable with,

In future most of these missions will be carried out by stealth UCAVS like AURA considering the risks associated with these missions and the need for lowest possible RCS.
Which hardpoint will this be mounted on?
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,762
Country flag
Which hardpoint will this be mounted on?
that will be designed once the induction of TEJAS or RAFALE into service, if you have any doubts please go to RAFLE thread here and see the info under SILENT EAGLE program for USAF or US NAVY.
 

SATISH

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
2,038
Likes
303
Country flag
that will be designed once the induction of TEJAS or RAFALE into service, if you have any doubts please go to RAFLE thread here and see the info under SILENT EAGLE program for USAF or US NAVY.
My question was simple man...where will this external weapon bay be mounted? I read through it....and still cant find place to mount it in LCA.
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,762
Country flag
On any hard point that has the load capacity.



These add ons will follow once TEJAS induction is complete and if IAf expresses the need.
in future it will be a standard requirement on 4th gens if a low RCS is needed for any particular mission.
It reduces weapon load, but more number of fighters will be deployed for the mission would negate it.
 
Last edited:

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
My question was simple man...where will this external weapon bay be mounted? I read through it....and still cant find place to mount it in LCA.
They will invent new hardpoints over the wing and add two tons of fuel tanks and bays on it.

Didn't you know you need to discard commonsense when discussing LCA on this forum?

LCA is set to get additional hard points, "streamlined" missiles (all current missiles are apparently not "streamlined"), conformal weapons bays (we may buy the ones meant for F-15SE and double the space within and carry more missiles and bombs than F-22 or PAKFA), conformal fuel tanks (like the ones on F-16IN, EF-2000 and Rafale), cloaking device (like on Star Trek) and lasers (like Star wars), all this after the design cycle ends.

Apparently LCA will be "invisible" in every spectrum because of its low RCS. Combine that with LCA's so called low wingloading, it will be the master of the sky.

These are the current "facts" here.
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,762
Country flag
Tomorrow's new reality will be very different from what ever some know all insomniac teenage sooth sayers pretend otherwise ,
whose job here is to extoll the virtue of few UPGRADED MIG-21 Bisons with puke 80 km radar detection range wiping out a squadron of 120 km detection and tracking range TEJAS which carries twice the payload of MIG-21s with much lower wing loading.

And upgraded JAGs with no radar being superior to TEJAS in ground attack roles,

Conformal fuel tank and stealth compliant external weapon bays can be configured for any low RCS 4.5th gen fighters like RAFALE, TEJAS to preserve their Low RCS advantage,

Which can not be done on previous generation fighters like SUKHOI-30 MK whose clean config RCS alone would be around 5 sq. meter,

If people can not digest these facts they can go on and on like celiene dion sings in TITANIC,

True to the spirit of this Sankarathi day , I just want to discard the old fruitless verbal wrestling that I picked up in last year here.
 
Last edited:

DivineHeretic

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,153
Likes
1,897
Country flag
They will invent new hardpoints over the wing and add two tons of fuel tanks and bays on it.

Didn't you know you need to discard commonsense when discussing LCA on this forum?

LCA is set to get additional hard points, "streamlined" missiles (all current missiles are apparently not "streamlined"), conformal weapons bays (we may buy the ones meant for F-15SE and double the space within and carry more missiles and bombs than F-22 or PAKFA), conformal fuel tanks (like the ones on F-16IN, EF-2000 and Rafale), cloaking device (like on Star Trek) and lasers (like Star wars), all this after the design cycle ends.

Apparently LCA will be "invisible" in every spectrum because of its low RCS. Combine that with LCA's so called low wingloading, it will be the master of the sky.

These are the current "facts" here.
In cae the low Rcs bit was aimed at me, I'd like to clarify that what I meant by low RCS was that the lca will have rcs in the range of a mig 21 or maybe little lower owing to composite materials and the fact that it is a Small fighter. I didn't imagine a stealthy lca at all.

Another thing one must understand is that there are three/ four ways of safely conducting SEAD strikes or for that matter any air strike over hostile airspace.
A) Using stealthy platforms to intrude and carry out strikes without detection.aka the B2.
B) Flying under the detection and tracking range of radar systems and delivering payload. Aka the apache raids on border air defence stations.
C) Using EW to mask the presence of aircraft to enemy radars and then to deliver strike package. Aka the Rafale over Libya and the Growler EW platform.
D) To simply fly over the AD envelope of the hostile air defence i.e. To fly at an altitude beyond the max altitude of the hostile AD. Aka the Mirages/Jaguars in Kargil.

You could use a combination of these abilities to achieve better results. But the Most important from Indo-Pak perspective is the fourth point. The Pak ground based air defence grid has only SHORAD systems in the form of Spada 2000. Meaning our SEAD/Strike platform can fly safely over the SAMs engagement altitude limit. This is where I see the LCA being useful in SEAD role.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
In cae the low Rcs bit was aimed at me, I'd like to clarify that what I meant by low RCS
Not at all. Your post, unlike some others, is quite sensible.

was that the lca will have rcs in the range of a mig 21 or maybe little lower owing to composite materials and the fact that it is a Small fighter. I didn't imagine a stealthy lca at all.
Mig-21 bison's RCS is not known. Mig-21's RCS without RAM is around 3m2. LCA's RCS should be at least 10 times better than a Mig-21 without RAM.

Another thing one must understand is that there are three/ four ways of safely conducting SEAD strikes or for that matter any air strike over hostile airspace.
A) Using stealthy platforms to intrude and carry out strikes without detection.aka the B2.
B) Flying under the detection and tracking range of radar systems and delivering payload. Aka the apache raids on border air defence stations.
C) Using EW to mask the presence of aircraft to enemy radars and then to deliver strike package. Aka the Rafale over Libya and the Growler EW platform.
D) To simply fly over the AD envelope of the hostile air defence i.e. To fly at an altitude beyond the max altitude of the hostile AD. Aka the Mirages/Jaguars in Kargil.
B-2 does not handle SEAD.

You could use a combination of these abilities to achieve better results. But the Most important from Indo-Pak perspective is the fourth point. The Pak ground based air defence grid has only SHORAD systems in the form of Spada 2000. Meaning our SEAD/Strike platform can fly safely over the SAMs engagement altitude limit. This is where I see the LCA being useful in SEAD role.
While their SAM systems are currently not up to the mark, their early warning systems are first class. They have taken deliveries of the TPS-77 radar systems which are PESA. We may have to fear the day they may receive HQ-15/18 based systems from China.

SEAD aircraft never fly beyond AD altitude. Akash and Spada 2000 have an altitude limit of 18Km. Jaguars don't cross 12 Km and LCA is restricted to 15Km. It is preferable to fly closer to the ground for other benefits.

Also, while you mention EW, the LCA Mk2's EW will be inferior to what will go on aircraft like Jaguar and MKI, at least in terms of antenna type.
 

DivineHeretic

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,153
Likes
1,897
Country flag
Not at all. Your post, unlike some others, is quite sensible.



Mig-21 bison's RCS is not known. Mig-21's RCS without RAM is around 3m2. LCA's RCS should be at least 10 times better than a Mig-21 without RAM.



B-2 does not handle SEAD.



While their SAM systems are currently not up to the mark, their early warning systems are first class. They have taken deliveries of the TPS-77 radar systems which are PESA. We may have to fear the day they may receive HQ-15/18 based systems from China.

SEAD aircraft never fly beyond AD altitude. Akash and Spada 2000 have an altitude limit of 18Km. Jaguars don't cross 12 Km and LCA is restricted to 15Km. It is preferable to fly closer to the ground for other benefits.

Also, while you mention EW, the LCA Mk2's EW will be inferior to what will go on aircraft like Jaguar and MKI, at least in terms of antenna type.
True the B2 was not meant to handle SEAD, but it is a role well within the capabilities of this legend. Its penetration ability into the modern air defence has remained unchallenged for the past 20-24 years. Of course now there are the UCAVs and Harpys to better perform the role.

And yes the Spada may have engagement altitude of upto 18 km but it will be seriously constrained to engage targets even 15-18 km away horizontally at this altitude because of the fact that it has a pretty short range i.e. 25km. Another point you will have to consider is that SEAD is not conducted by free fall munitions but rather by AG missiles. So you dont need to fly right on top to take down a SAM site. it is still possible to launch munitions while staying outside the AD envelope. And yes, if the PAF gets its hands on the HQ18, the equation will change dramatically.

About your point that the Pak has excellent radars to detect our aircraft, it really does not matter if they cannot do anything about the intrusion. Moreover in SEAD missions aimed at static targets it does not matter if the enemy turns off its radar, the few seconds it kept them on is enough to identify the location. This changes for the worse if the Sam systems are mobile like the Patriot battery.

And as far as flying low is concerned, it does present the advantage of being detectable at much shorter range than at normal altitude. Also even though AWACS and airborne fighters can detect the aircraft, the radar is hard pressed to track the supersonic aircraft in the midst of additional noise from the surface, much less guide a BVR towards it. So I do stand corrected in that low level missions are better. thanks for that.

As far as EW is concerned there is no way the EW/Jammer suite of Lca can match that of the Mki or the Growler. That isnt my reason for stating this point. This is something the Rafale with its Spectra and in the future with Mki+AESA+Elta pod will be able to exploit. This i repeat has nothing to do with LCA. Though I am not really sure if the Engine of Jaguar can provide enough power to field a powerfull EW package.

Please note that my arguements are not really to state that the Lca is an ideal platform for SEAD. As I've come to learn, it might be not a feasible aircraft for thos role. But the fact does remain that if the IAF is presented with an opportunity to conduct SEAD mission and has only LCA available for tasking, it will commit it to the mission, feasible or not.


And as far as high altitude SEAD is concerned, perhaps there is still a place for the Mig 25 and the like to exist. Who knows, the new x-37/47 could be a new platform with a SEAD role, using hypersonic speed and insane altitude as shields.
 
Last edited:

Decklander

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2012
Messages
2,654
Likes
4,111
DRDO has a very nice and sophisticated RCS measurement facility in HAL Bangalore. This facility was used to calculate the RCS of LCA and also to fine tune the shape to reduce the RCS without actually giving it a stealth shaping. That has resulted in LCA having the lowest RCS of all aircraft flying today in IAF and also lower than that of Rafale.
 

SajeevJino

Long walk
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
6,017
Likes
3,364
Country flag
Can anybody tell me the Actual RCS Of F35...


and LCA Is the Best known Low RCS platform after operational F 35...if LCA inducted in IAF in this Year
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
DRDO has a very nice and sophisticated RCS measurement facility in HAL Bangalore. This facility was used to calculate the RCS of LCA and also to fine tune the shape to reduce the RCS without actually giving it a stealth shaping. That has resulted in LCA having the lowest RCS of all aircraft flying today in IAF and also lower than that of Rafale.
I beg to differ. The anechoic chamber in Bangalore is only for models and not full fledged aircraft. They are currently building around 10 different anechoic chambers across the country today, including one which measures 22m * 15m *10m(more or less).

These are the anechoic chambers in the west.







These facilities were built in the 80s, unlike ours which are being built now.

LCA is an aircraft designed in the 80s, without the use of such facilities. According to official news released by ADA, LCA is supposed to have an RCS 3 times smaller than a Mirage-2000. Dassault claims a 10 to 20 times difference in RCS between Mirage-2000 and Rafale. Saab released an official document claiming a RCS of 0.1m2 for Gripen C.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
Can anybody tell me the Actual RCS Of F35...


and LCA Is the Best known Low RCS platform after operational F 35...if LCA inducted in IAF in this Year
According to USAF figures, the F-35's RCS is around 0.001m2. That's the size of a golf ball.

LCA's RCS is higher than EF-2000, Rafale and Gripen if we go by ADA's official figures. Mk2 may be as much as Rafale or lower because it is a newer design.

If you ask me what I think, from what I've read, Rafale and EF-2000's RCS figures are the lowest among 4th gen followed by Gripen and then comes LCA. There should be a 3x or 4x difference between Rafale/EF-2000 and LCA. SH should be around Rafale/EF class while F-15SE should be around F-35 class because that's what US Congress has authorized for export.

A Mirage-2000 should have a RCS figure of 1 - 1.2m2. Divide by 3 and we have LCA's RCS figure. Divide mirage-2000's RCS by 10-20 and we should have Rafale.

Divide Mirage-2000's RCS by 1000 and we have F-35. Divide Mirage-2000's RCS by 10000 and we should have the F-22.

Divide Mirage-2000's RCS by 10000000 and we should have the next series of bombers and strike aircraft currently being planned by USAF and USN like the LRS-B and the F/A-XX, for which RFI has been sent to Boeing.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
Yeah. That is a new facility. Where I mentioned they are building many across the country. Three are being built in air force bases too.

ISRO's facility cannot be used for LCA.

This is a new one in NAL.

NAL- CEM Lab

This is what ISRO had before the facility was built.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
Other anechoic chambers around,





Nowadays anechoic chambers are coming up like weed all over the world. Even phone companies use anechoic chambers for electronic measurements.
 

sayareakd

Mod
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,952
Country flag
Yeah. That is a new facility. Where I mentioned they are building many across the country. Three are being built in air force bases too.

ISRO's facility cannot be used for LCA.

This is a new one in NAL.

NAL- CEM Lab

This is what ISRO had before the facility was built.
OK...........................:rofl:

but no body will know after all both are sarkari :laugh:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top