ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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p2prada

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No, there is no chance. ISRO's requirement is totally different from ADA's.

Anechoic chambers are made for specific purposes, it is not an all in one package.

Like I said, such facilities are being built all over, so ADA won't have the need for ISRO's facility.
 

ersakthivel

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to this date the only authoritative statement for LCA's RCS is from KOTA HARINARAYANA's statement in ADA website,He clearly says the LCA has the lowest RCS among all other non stealth fighters,

Which ADA official said that LCA has a third of mirage RCS with what proof of data is still unknown.I very seriously doubt that ADA official had the figures of MIRAGE RCS at hand let alone LCA RCS,

Which obviously could not be found out by that ADA official without those Anechoic chambers.

There is no way that grippen with a boxy rectangular air inlet and huge canards at another plane form the wings totaling eight extra edges is going to have a smaller RCS than TEJAS.
 
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Decklander

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I can say it with complete certainity that LCA has the lowest RCS of all fighters being flown by IAF and also Rafale. All the pix posted here till now are not that of this RCS measuring facility. That facility I have seen by own eyes and it is none of the ones posted till now. I am really surprised as to how Indians created it as this is considered the biggest secret facility. We do have so called RCS measuring softwares available today but none of them comes anywhr close to what Indians have developed. It gives full RCS measurements in all wavebands in 360* coverage.
 
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Decklander

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as far as stealth is concerned, its like this, F-22-F-35-LCA.. Rafale and Typhoon are well below this figure of RCS of LCA.
 

p2prada

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I can say it with complete certainity that LCA has the lowest RCS of all fighters being flown by IAF and also Rafale. All the pix posted here till now are not that of this RCS measuring facility. That facility I have seen by own eyes and it is none of the ones posted till now. I am really surprised as to how Indians created it as this is considered the biggest secret facility. We do have so called RCS measuring softwares available today but none of them comes anywhr close to what Indians have developed. It gives full RCS measurements in all wavebands in 360* coverage.
Are you talking about a radar range?







 

p2prada

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as far as stealth is concerned, its like this, F-22-F-35-LCA.. Rafale and Typhoon are well below this figure of RCS of LCA.
LCA being 3 times more stealthy than Mirage-2000 came straight from ADA's literature. Maybe they are talking about average RCS and not frontal aspect.

Or you are comparing LCA's frontal RCS with Rafale's average RCS?

Average RCS should be very high due to the use of vertical tail fins and the lack of a radar blocker from the rear on both aircraft.

This also depends on when the facilities for RCS measurement were built compared to LCA's design freeze. There are no significant differences between PV-1 and LSP-7 for us to note major changes for RCS reduction, because of lack of visible improvements in the side and rear profile, maybe frontal profile was more refined.

So, are you saying the facilities were ready before the 90s?

Would have been nice to have numbers going with it, but I suppose we won't get it. As of today, only Saab released Gripen C's RCS info, but it is only a number, no distance or freq band used. We can only guess 150 Km and X band.
 

ersakthivel

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LCA being 3 times more stealthy than Mirage-2000 came straight from ADA's literature. Maybe they are talking about average RCS and not frontal aspect.

Or you are comparing LCA's frontal RCS with Rafale's average RCS?

Average RCS should be very high due to the use of vertical tail fins and the lack of a radar blocker from the rear on both aircraft.

This also depends on when the facilities for RCS measurement were built compared to LCA's design freeze. There are no significant differences between PV-1 and LSP-7 for us to note major changes for RCS reduction, because of lack of visible improvements in the side and rear profile, maybe frontal profile was more refined.

So, are you saying the facilities were ready before the 90s?

Would have been nice to have numbers going with it, but I suppose we won't get it. As of today, only Saab released Gripen C's RCS info, but it is only a number, no distance or freq band used. We can only guess 150 Km and X band.
vertical fins have no implications in frontal RCS reflections
Only from straight on side ways they reflect the radar waves back to source,
Radar blocker is applied only in fighters that expose their engine blades for the frontal radar of enemy like F-18 hornet and poorly designed PAKFA,

Since the Y duct intake completely shields the engine blades from RADAR there is no need for radar blockers in tejas,

Corner reflections are the most important source of RCS emissions in frontal,

By having two boxy air intakes upfront grippen gives eight extra RCS emission points ,
The two extra canards also give extra corner reflections,
these are not present on TEJAS.
All shaping techniques employed by RAFALe in the eighties when it was designed was also employed on TEJAS which is the latest design when it comes to 4.5th gen fighters.
whatever bigger chambers are used ,
the basic shaping regimen of RCS reduction is the same, when it comes to frontal RCS, In overall RCS emissions these chambers will play a significant part.
Also latest r softwares can easily give the same results in simulation
 
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p2prada

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Indian RCS measuring facility is located in Hyderabad in Research centre Imarat. Below is a part of studies done thr.
http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...2X_RCcw8ajb1CBbNvNvmQ&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.bmk
I pointed out correctly with my two posts. It talks of 2 anechoic chambers, one closed range and one open range. 4 facilities in all.

All of this is for scale models, 1/10th. Not for real, full sized aircraft as is the case for European and American birds.

Page 208 fig 2 shows the anechoic chamber for far field, fig 3 shows compact range.

No figures for open and closed ranges, too bad. Page 210 explains the use of a 1/10th scale model.

Such facilities for scale models exist in many countries, actually very basic for a country like India. I am talking about RCS measurement for a full scale model, that is because the real aircraft will have significant differences in wave behavior compared to scale models. Imagine how a 3 cm wave may behave on a 1.5m x 1m x 0.5m model compared to a 15m x 10m x 5m aircraft. It's like building a sand castle on a beach and watching the sea waves behavior on it as compared to a full scale stone castle on the same beach and seeing a difference in sea wave behavior on it. Obviously there would be big differences. Similar but more accurate readings are generated from scale models for wind tunnel testing, but the data generated is enough to design the aircraft. Even then the power houses in aeronautics still prefer full scale models for wind tunnel tests. Not the case with a scale model radar range and anechoic chamber. The data simply isn't enough for it.

More importantly, if LCA is expected to have a RCS even remotely close to Rafale/EF, the design must incorporate LO characteristics right from design stage. It is impossible to make an aircraft LO after the design stage is completed. I doubt ADA had the capability at the time to even speak of stealth during LCA's design stage in the mid 80s.

You can make minor changes like better RAM (if catered for the extra 1 ton of weight on a light aircraft) and radar blockers to reduce RCS. Significant changes may see a 50% decrease in radar detection. What I mean to say is the conversion of an existing aircraft like LCA Mk1 or F/A-18 Hornet to LCA Mk2 or Super Hornet may not see massive differences in RCS reduction, especially average RCS. To reduce radar detection range by 50%, the aircraft must have a RCS that is at least 16 times the original RCS. So, if the LCA Mk1 is detected at 150Km and if I want the LCA Mk2 to be detected at 75 Km, a hypothetical 1m2 RCS for Mk1 must be reduced to 0.06m2 on Mk2.

"Officially", LCA has a RCS 3 times smaller than Mirage-2000 while Rafale has a RCS 10-20 times smaller than Mirage-2000. Unofficially, I don't know, maybe you are right, especially if ADA is talking about average RCS while Dassault is referring to frontal RCS.

Aerodynamics always takes higher priority over stealth.

Scale model testing gives some clues on RCS figures, but it is in no way an exact measure. Nor can the data generated be used on real aircraft.

Like I said, full scale facilities are being built around the country. Large anechoic chambers are already confirmed in 2 different places for HAL and DRDO, 2 for IAF, apart from a number of smaller facilities. I have a feeling we may see a full scale radar range in Chitradurga, and/or Hyderabad, where it was announced will hold a new range for EW. LINK.
 

Decklander

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Chitradurga is being set up as a dedicated defense electronics city infact even a high altitude engine test facility is being set up thr which has been provided free by Boeing as part of offset deal. You cud be right about external RCS measuring facility and may be that too might come LM/Boieng free as part of offsets. The facility for RCS measurement with nearly full scale size internal measurement facility exists in India. I am not aware of an external facility but ADA has also developed certain softwares of their own for RCS measurements which are damn accurate and they mastered the use of composites for RCs reduction and also have a very sophisticated CFD facility for use with Composites as composites have slightly different behaviour under stress.
 

p2prada

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Chitradurga is being set up as a dedicated defense electronics city infact even a high altitude engine test facility is being set up thr which has been provided free by Boeing as part of offset deal. You cud be right about external RCS measuring facility and may be that too might come LM/Boieng free as part of offsets. The facility for RCS measurement with nearly full scale size internal measurement facility exists in India. I am not aware of an external facility but ADA has also developed certain softwares of their own for RCS measurements which are damn accurate and they mastered the use of composites for RCs reduction and also have a very sophisticated CFD facility for use with Composites as composites have slightly different behaviour under stress.
Some of the people I spoke to have a lot of hopes for the AMCA project. Only worried about the engine, but everything else would be first class for the project. I heard the expectation is to exceed the F-22 by a good margin.

Even our latest on board EW systems are undergoing their fourth and fifth evolutions, thanks to DARE and Elisra.

The first indigenous version was for the Mig-27 with AESA, followed by a more advanced version for Mig-29UPG. Both are advanced AESA versions of the kit that was jointly developed by DARE and Elisra for LCA under Mayavi, solid state but no jammer. Everything under the EWFSA project.

EW kit being made for MKIs under the project Eagle Eye by DARE. 100 MKIs are to be upgraded in Phase 1. It is supposed to start soon, if not started already.

The next evolution may see the use of GaN modules. That would be interesting.
 

Drsomnath999

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as far as stealth is concerned, its like this, F-22-F-35-LCA.. Rafale and Typhoon are well below this figure of RCS of LCA.
cough!!!

Sir

LCA has much reduced RCS no doubt about it
But to be fair enough i still beleive typhoon & Rafale Frontal RCS is much better than LCA though some claim canards are not stealthy but overall RCS assement i think LCA may be having less RCS than typhoon & rafale
 

Decklander

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cough!!!

Sir

LCA has much reduced RCS no doubt about it
But to be fair enough i still beleive typhoon & Rafale Frontal RCS is much better than LCA though some claim canards are not stealthy but overall RCS assement i think LCA may be having less RCS than typhoon & rafale
I did not word my statement correctly and the meaning got completely reversed. If you read my earlier posts I had stated very clearly that LCA has lower RCS than even Rafale. I meant to say was that even Rafale and Typhoon have higher RCS value than LCA but I typped wrongly. And mistake is regretted.
 

SPIEZ

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Rafales conducted 6 to 7 hour missions for the same over Libya. Bombs and ARMs are used. Actually ARMs have a very low probability of success. Rafales don't even have ARMs, they used AASM against Libyan SAM sites.

AASM's are laser guided missiles. The average release range of AASM's are 8 km right?

Meaning that they have to fly into the danger zone and than release these bombs.

So I guess, the Libyan air defense might have been pretty week.
 

p2prada

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AASM's are laser guided missiles. The average release range of AASM's are 8 km right?

Meaning that they have to fly into the danger zone and than release these bombs.

So I guess, the Libyan air defense might have been pretty week.
15-20Km for low altitude release. Above 50Km for high altitude release.

Rafales were overkill for Libyan defense.
 

Defcon 1

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Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1977 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-88,LSP4-56,LSP5-117,LSP7-14,NP1-4)

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1971 Test Flights Successfully. (08-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-86,LSP4-56,LSP5-115,LSP7-12,NP1-4)
 

SPIEZ

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15-20Km for low altitude release. Above 50Km for high altitude release.

Rafales were overkill for Libyan defense.

I don't buy that.

Laser targeting pods can't target more than 50km can they?

BTW how does a moving a plane illuminate the exact point with accuracy?
 

p2prada

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I don't buy that.

Laser targeting pods can't target more than 50km can they?

BTW how does a moving a plane illuminate the exact point with accuracy?
You are comparing the AASM with regular LGBs like JDAMS on Paveway kits. Not the latest in technology compared to AASM.

AASM has rocket motors and extra fins for the range. Here's the break up.



Other LGBs normally don't have the third kit.

Read more about AASM: Sagem

Anyway, in long range modes, the LDP is not used. AASM has a terminal homing IIR seeker with inertial navigation. It is quite well proven in combat.

The American Small Diameter Bomb doubles the range of the AASM, goes to over 100Km.
 

Defcon 1

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Flight test update


LCA-Tejas has Completed 1980 Test Flights successfully.(15-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-89,LSP4-56,LSP5-118,LSP7-15,NP1-4)

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1977 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-88,LSP4-56,LSP5-117,LSP7-14,NP1-4)
 

ersakthivel

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cough!!!

Sir

LCA has much reduced RCS no doubt about it
But to be fair enough i still beleive typhoon & Rafale Frontal RCS is much better than LCA though some claim canards are not stealthy but overall RCS assement i think LCA may be having less RCS than typhoon & rafale
Typhoon and RAFLE were designed at ,least 10 years before the design phase for LCA tejas started,

The Tejas mk-2 is about to be finetuned for more aerodynamic efficiency,So ADA has a chance to apply all the latest test facilities and new software simulation with exponentially increased computer processor power to fine tune it's shape,

So chances are LCA TEJAS can have the lowest possible RCS among the 4.5th gens.
 
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