ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[HariPrasad-1]

i still have the question on what engine will power the Tejas MK 1.5 and Tejas MK 2 ?

Will we be making those engines ourselves ? and how much would they cost and can they be used for other juicy stuff.

It should be Mk1. We are planning a huge slash down in weight and aerodynamic improvement in MK1+ itself. If even 500 KG weight is slashed than also weight T/W ratio shall go up by 8%. Which is tremendous. It will outclass all the planes in performance. Ig GE 414 is installed than it is really a great thing.

 

[tejas warrior]

It should be Mk1. We are planning a huge slash down in weight and aerodynamic improvement in MK1+ itself. If even 500 KG weight is slashed than also weight T/W ratio shall go up by 8%. Which is tremendous. It will outclass all the planes in performance. Ig GE 414 is installed than it is really a great thing.

500 kg weight reduction in Mk1-A is a very high figure.. 100-200 kg max can be achieved.

 

[archie]

Thanks. Considering they plan to produce mk1a from 2018, can they order and get 404 engines at such short notice, specially when they are IN version and not standard versions? I thought they would need to place orders years in advance. Also, since mk1a is replacing mk2 orders of 100 planes, would they replace 414 with 404 orders since they wouldn't need 414 engines in the short term. It is notable that 414 deliveries were meant to begin this year.

Dimensions of GE 404 and 414 seems the same .. any possibility that just replace it considering that inlet does not need any major changes??

 

[HariPrasad-1]

500 kg weight reduction in Mk1-A is a very high figure.. 100-200 kg max can be achieved.

300 Kg Ballast are sure to go. Landing gear weight shall also be slashed down. Gradually many metal components shall be replaced by Composite. Merging of various LRUs also on card. 500 KG is a very reasonable figure.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

ge404 and ge414,

maybe later they use lca as platform to evaluate the performance of indian design engines when they are ready,

Usually transport planes are used to test jet engines, not jet planes. The jet engine is latched onto a wing of the plane and started mid air and thrust is recorded. They don't rely on the thrust of the test engine to actually fly the plane. The plane is flying on its own engines. We recently tested the Kaveri on a Russian transport plane,

300 Kg Ballast are sure to go. Landing gear weight shall also be slashed down. Gradually many metal components shall be replaced by Composite. Merging of various LRUs also on card. 500 KG is a very reasonable figure.

I think the Naval version has heavier landing gear and arrester hook assembly. Currently what's the weight difference between 2-seat Naval version and 1 seat IAF version?

 

[salute]

Usually transport planes are used to test jet engines, not jet planes. The jet engine is latched onto a wing of the plane and started mid air and thrust is recorded. They don't rely on the thrust of the test engine to actually fly the plane. The plane is flying on its own engines. We recently tested the Kaveri on a Russian transport plane,

I think the Naval version has heavier landing gear and arrester hook assembly. Currently what's the weight difference between 2-seat Naval version and 1 seat IAF version?

yes already know that,

but me did not said 'trials',but 'to evaluate' performance of the engine.

 

[tejas warrior]

Mark 1-A expected to be ready in 2 years

• ‘Tejas Mark 1-A’ will fill the void created by MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets that will be phased out by 2022
• Jets will be manufactured locally with 43 improvements
• First aircraft will be ready by 2018; production of entire fleet would be over by 2022-2023

Ajay Banerjee

Tribune News Service

New Delhi, January 31

The Ministry of Defence has decided to locally produce 106 upgraded Light Combat Aircraft “Tejas” jets to replace the ageing fleet of MiG fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force.

The “Tejas Mark 1-A” will have 43 improvements over the existing Tejas currently being test-flown by the IAF for various parameters and slated for final operation clearance in March. The existing project is running years behind schedule.

Sources told The Tribune that a decision has been taken to produce 106 “Tejas Mark 1-A” jets and the same has been conveyed to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), besides the manufacturer — Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a public sector undertaking owned by MoD.

The MoD has set a 2018 deadline for the first aircraft to be ready with a target to complete its production by 2022-2023. In September, new specifications were agreed upon and the IAF accepted 43 modifications that could be carried out without changing the existing design.

On the list of modifications are five major improvements, including an AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, which the HAL will co-develop with Israel firm Elta; air-to-air refuelling facility; externally fitted self-protection jammer to prevent incoming enemy missiles from homing in using radar signature; and a new layout, involving 27 modifications, of internal systems to iron out maintenance issues.

The plane will be 1,000 kg lighter than the existing version, which currently weighs 6,500 kg, but will use the same engine — General Electric’s 404. “The power of the engine is more than enough,” said a senior functionary. Fitting the newer and more powerful GE-414 engine would entail fresh design and airframe studies.

The HAL has been asked to produce 16 jets annually and a Rs 1,252-crore modernisation plan has been okayed to ramp up capacities from the present six-seven planes annually.

The decision will go a long way in keeping the IAF battle-ready. The upgraded jets will fill the void created by MiG-21s and MiG-27s that will be phased out by 2022.

There are 260 Soviet-era single-engine MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets in the IAF fleet. The air force needs 400 jets over the next 10 years.

- See more at: http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...replace-migs/190424.html#sthash.cQJOtEKw.dpuf

 

[tejas warrior]

Interesting Numbers

20 Mk1 + 106 Mk1-A = 126 fighters

MMRCA tender was also for 126 fighters.. 126 Rafales.

 

[cannonfodder]

1000 kg is too big claim to reduce. It will need considerable amount of retesting. Need some source that can validate what is the actual target of weight reduction.

Mark 1-A expected to be ready in 2 years

• ‘Tejas Mark 1-A’ will fill the void created by MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets that will be phased out by 2022
• Jets will be manufactured locally with 43 improvements
• First aircraft will be ready by 2018; production of entire fleet would be over by 2022-2023

Ajay Banerjee

Tribune News Service

New Delhi, January 31

The Ministry of Defence has decided to locally produce 106 upgraded Light Combat Aircraft “Tejas” jets to replace the ageing fleet of MiG fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force.

The “Tejas Mark 1-A” will have 43 improvements over the existing Tejas currently being test-flown by the IAF for various parameters and slated for final operation clearance in March. The existing project is running years behind schedule.

Sources told The Tribune that a decision has been taken to produce 106 “Tejas Mark 1-A” jets and the same has been conveyed to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), besides the manufacturer — Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a public sector undertaking owned by MoD.

The MoD has set a 2018 deadline for the first aircraft to be ready with a target to complete its production by 2022-2023. In September, new specifications were agreed upon and the IAF accepted 43 modifications that could be carried out without changing the existing design.

On the list of modifications are five major improvements, including an AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, which the HAL will co-develop with Israel firm Elta; air-to-air refuelling facility; externally fitted self-protection jammer to prevent incoming enemy missiles from homing in using radar signature; and a new layout, involving 27 modifications, of internal systems to iron out maintenance issues.

The plane will be 1,000 kg lighter than the existing version, which currently weighs 6,500 kg, but will use the same engine — General Electric’s 404. “The power of the engine is more than enough,” said a senior functionary. Fitting the newer and more powerful GE-414 engine would entail fresh design and airframe studies.

The HAL has been asked to produce 16 jets annually and a Rs 1,252-crore modernisation plan has been okayed to ramp up capacities from the present six-seven planes annually.

The decision will go a long way in keeping the IAF battle-ready. The upgraded jets will fill the void created by MiG-21s and MiG-27s that will be phased out by 2022.

There are 260 Soviet-era single-engine MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets in the IAF fleet. The air force needs 400 jets over the next 10 years.

- See more at: http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...replace-migs/190424.html#sthash.cQJOtEKw.dpuf

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

1000 kg is too big claim to reduce. It will need considerable amount of retesting. Need some source that can validate what is the actual target of weight reduction.

1000kg does seem too much. If so much weight has to be reduced then the plan will have to be redesigned because the center of gravity and all other parameters will change. Broadly speaking, I think what they are trying to do is to have Tejas Mk1 and Mk2 with same thrust/weight ratio. Mk2 will be heavier but with more powerful engine. Mk1 will have a weaker engine but weight will also be less. But 1000kg weight reduction seems too drastic.

I remember the DRDO/HAL has said that redesigning the plane to be able to fit the new GE414 itself will take 3 years of redesign work. Imagine how much work is needed to reduce 1000kg from Mk1. I wonder why all these problems are crawling out of the burrow now. Was the agency sleeping in the last 10 years? AK Anthony deliberately weakened our military power, he must be tried for treason.

 

[tejas warrior]

300 Kg Ballast are sure to go. Landing gear weight shall also be slashed down. Gradually many metal components shall be replaced by Composite. Merging of various LRUs also on card. 500 KG is a very reasonable figure.

If they can achieved a figure of 200 - 300 Kg, it will be good.

please note, ASEA is going to be heavier than current Radar.

 

[Compersion]

It should be Mk1. We are planning a huge slash down in weight and aerodynamic improvement in MK1+ itself. If even 500 KG weight is slashed than also weight T/W ratio shall go up by 8%. Which is tremendous. It will outclass all the planes in performance. Ig GE 414 is installed than it is really a great thing.

Many thanks for the reply. I still am not 100% on the engines since what was understood is that we would be making the engines here in bharat with TOT. but what i am reading is stuff like this:

"The plane will be 1,000 kg lighter than the existing version, which currently weighs 6,500 kg, but will use the same engine — General Electric’s 404. “The power of the engine is more than enough,” said a senior functionary. Fitting the newer and more powerful GE-414 engine would entail fresh design and airframe studies."

This is in a total conflict with the earlier reports of the GE-414 Tender to supply the beauty that was done. Is there something that is not being said out openly and why. Why dont we make it clear. If it is Ge-414 make it known when and how. If we are using Ge-404 is that with TOT and local manufacturing ??

 

[tejas warrior]

Many thanks for the reply. I still am not 100% on the engines since what was understood is that we would be making the engines here in bharat with TOT. but what i am reading is stuff like this:

"The plane will be 1,000 kg lighter than the existing version, which currently weighs 6,500 kg, but will use the same engine — General Electric’s 404. “The power of the engine is more than enough,” said a senior functionary. Fitting the newer and more powerful GE-414 engine would entail fresh design and airframe studies."

This is in a total conflict with the earlier reports of the GE-414 Tender to supply the beauty that was done. Is there something that is not being said out openly and why. Why dont we make it clear. If it is Ge-414 make it known when and how. If we are using Ge-404 is that with TOT and local manufacturing ??

Tejas Mk1 & MK1-A will use GE-404.

 

[Compersion]

Tejas Mk1 & MK1-A will use GE-404.

Many Thanks but what about MK2. Even with Ge-404 what about the details and how many and where will they be made. It is a major part of the jet. Why we not talking and making it clear. Why we are not making it clear on Ge-414 also. Are we blaming delay on others ?? Also last time i have check GE is a public listed company ... dont they have public disclosure restrictions ... is this also a government to government deal . what is the flavor of the cake ...

 

[guru-dutt]

300 Kg Ballast are sure to go. Landing gear weight shall also be slashed down. Gradually many metal components shall be replaced by Composite. Merging of various LRUs also on card. 500 KG is a very reasonable figure.

yes 1000 seem to the target but if HAL & ARDE team can take get even half way mark or say 500-800 then tejas will become a very diffrent beast both its speed and combat range gonna change

 

[guru-dutt]

1000kg does seem too much. If so much weight has to be reduced then the plan will have to be redesigned because the center of gravity and all other parameters will change. Broadly speaking, I think what they are trying to do is to have Tejas Mk1 and Mk2 with same thrust/weight ratio. Mk2 will be heavier but with more powerful engine. Mk1 will have a weaker engine but weight will also be less. But 1000kg weight reduction seems too drastic.

I remember the DRDO/HAL has said that redesigning the plane to be able to fit the new GE414 itself will take 3 years of redesign work. Imagine how much work is needed to reduce 1000kg from Mk1. I wonder why all these problems are crawling out of the burrow now. Was the agency sleeping in the last 10 years? AK Anthony deliberately weakened our military power, he must be tried for treason.

in short it means there wont be any MK2 just improoved MK1a + this will also lower the project cost and help commanality all tejas now need is DSI

 

[AbRaj]

Usually transport planes are used to test jet engines, not jet planes. The jet engine is latched onto a wing of the plane and started mid air and thrust is recorded. They don't rely on the thrust of the test engine to actually fly the plane. The plane is flying on its own engines. We recently tested the Kaveri on a Russian transport plane,

I think the Naval version has heavier landing gear and arrester hook assembly. Currently what's the weight difference between 2-seat Naval version and 1 seat IAF version?

Recently , are you kidding man, that was almost a decade ago

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Recently , are you kidding man, that was almost a decade ago

True, but in the course of a development span of 25 years where we have to wait at least 7 years for each major milestone to be accomplished, a period of a year ago seems like recently because that is the most recent technical development about the Tejas.

 

[tsunami]

1000kg does seem too much. If so much weight has to be reduced then the plan will have to be redesigned because the center of gravity and all other parameters will change. Broadly speaking, I think what they are trying to do is to have Tejas Mk1 and Mk2 with same thrust/weight ratio. Mk2 will be heavier but with more powerful engine. Mk1 will have a weaker engine but weight will also be less. But 1000kg weight reduction seems too drastic.

I remember the DRDO/HAL has said that redesigning the plane to be able to fit the new GE414 itself will take 3 years of redesign work. Imagine how much work is needed to reduce 1000kg from Mk1. I wonder why all these problems are crawling out of the burrow now. Was the agency sleeping in the last 10 years? AK Anthony deliberately weakened our military power, he must be tried for treason.

What I understand is that center of gravity will not change. If you look at the data Tejas was always suppose to be a fighter with 5.5 tons empty weight. But the main structure was over weight most of which due to heavy landing gear and that's why they have to put 300 KGs of Ballast weight in the nose of the fighter to keep it's center of gravity at correct position.

Now they can only remove the Ballast weight if the landing gear and main structure weight is decreased. This means that if they are successful to reduce 400+ KGs of weight from main structure then they will be able to remove approx 200 kgs of Ballast weight. Also I believe that IFR probe and new AESA radar will have some extra weight which will be slatted by rest of the Ballast weight.

But yes 1000 kg weight reduction is just too much. 600 Kg is possible without changing the center of gravity of the fighter. This will improve the thrust to weight ratio of the fighter by 7-8% with the same engine and will not required much testing. But I am no expert just saying what I read and understand.

 

[AbRaj]

True, but in the course of a development span of 25 years where we have to wait at least 7 years for each major milestone to be accomplished, a period of a year ago seems like recently because that is the most recent technical development about the Tejas.

Truth is that they messed up big time with engine development and are now trying to get rid of that to import one more State of the Art weapon(engine)
Man its frustrating saga