ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Pulkit]

Good news for Tejas...


http://idrw.org/36-rafale-is-final-number-to-be-purchased-parrikar/

Speaking at the Aaj Tak Manthan conclave in New Delhi on Thursday, Parrikar said that India will not be placing any follow-up orders of more Rafale fighter after 36 aircrafts are inducted.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his visit to Paris, last month requested the French government to supply 36 Rafale fighters in a G2G deal and French teams are already in India to draft final purchase agreement.

Parrikar Confirmed that Money saved on not purchasing more Rafale fighter jets will allow Government more funds which will be diverted to LCA Tejas Project.

” I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales and Now we can buy more Tejas “said Parrikar and also said MMRCA or Rafale was never meant to replace Mig-21s in IAF fleet, but it will be Cheaper and lighter Tejas fighter jets which will take its place .

When asked if he is satisfied with Performance of Tejas, Parrikar responded by saying he is satisfied up to a certain level and went on to add that Safety aspect of the aircraft is Excellent and he has no doubts about that .

 

[Khagesh]

We should see some reasonably good days for IAF with:
1) 36 Rafales coming in on pure import basis (I hope they leave out the off sets also),
2) the upgrades of M2K coming in,
3) the Su30MKIs serviceability getting bumped to around 70%-75% in next few months
4) HAL being pushed to start production of LCAs.

Enough to keep IAF focused for next 4 years.

Now is the time to build up the focus for the payloads.

Dukh Bhare Din Beetey Re Bhaiyaa Acche Din Aayo Re

 

[Pulkit]

We should see some reasonably good days for IAF with:
1) 36 Rafales coming in on pure import basis (I hope they leave out the off sets also),
2) the upgrades of M2K coming in,
3) the Su30MKIs serviceability getting bumped to around 70%-75% in next few months
4) HAL being pushed to start production of LCAs.

Enough to keep IAF focused for next 4 years.

Now is the time to build up the focus for the payloads.

Dukh Bhare Din Beetey Re Bhaiyaa Acche Din Aayo Re

We have a long way to go...

Our needs are close to 250 LCA to be replaced in next decade at a strength of 33 squad(no definite figures available) available.
what are we doing ?

1)36 Rafale will be most optimistically by 2018.
2)40 Tejas MK1 by 2018.
3)Tejas MK2 if achieves FOC on time 50 by 2025.
4)Pakfa/FGFA 50 by 2025.
5)Remaining Su 30MKI delivered by 2019.

this does not even keep the available fleet size.
if this scenario remains same for next 10 years we will be at 35-38 squad even in 2030.

and here we are trying to get to 42 squadron.

 

[ersakthivel]

http://idrw.org/36-rafale-is-final-number-to-be-purchased-parrikar/#more-64705

Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his visit to Paris, last month requested the French government to supply 36 Rafale fighters in a G2G deal and French teams are already in India to draft final purchase agreement.

Parrikar Confirmed that Money saved on not purchasing more Rafale fighter jets will allow Government more funds which will be diverted to LCA Tejas Project.

” I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales and Now we can buy more Tejas “said Parrikar and also said MMRCA or Rafale was never meant to replace Mig-21s in IAF fleet, but it will be Cheaper and lighter Tejas fighter jets which will take its place .

When asked if he is satisfied with Performance of Tejas, Parrikar responded by saying he is satisfied up to a certain level and went on to add that Safety aspect of the aircraft is Excellent and he has no doubts about that .

 

[Pulkit]

http://idrw.org/36-rafale-is-final-number-to-be-purchased-parrikar/#more-64705

#4782 double post

 

[kumar2310s]

If Govt is saving almost 20 Billion $ on 90 rafale, why not IAF, Navy, Army place an order of 250+ LCAs? This will help HAL to have production line setup and there will be no compromise on india's preparedness as well. By the time HAL delivers 250 LCA, the R&D will achieve success in making the LCA competitive..

 

[akshay m]

50% of Rafale deal value will be invested in India: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar

Parrikar also said that with India buying around 36 Rafale jets for now, government savings on this project is likely to be up Rs 60,000-65,000 crore. This money, Parrikar said, will be used to accelerate defence manufacturing in India, including speeding up the long-ingestation Light Combat Aircraft. The minister said LCA will be inducted in large numbers, up to 200 fighters or 10 squadrons.

 

[Pulkit]

If Govt is saving almost 20 Billion $ on 90 rafale, why not IAF, Navy, Army place an order of 250+ LCAs? This will help HAL to have production line setup and there will be no compromise on india's preparedness as well. By the time HAL delivers 250 LCA, the R&D will achieve success in making the LCA competitive..

As of now minimum order has been already placed.
IAF is not very willing but IN is already on board to increase the orders once Tejas MK2 is ready.

Defense minister Manohar Parrikar has already conveyed that the funds will be re directed towards Tejas MK2....

Which competitiveness are you referring to here?

 

[avknight1408]

We have a long way to go...

Our needs are close to 250 LCA to be replaced in next decade at a strength of 33 squad(no definite figures available) available.
what are we doing ?

1)36 Rafale will be most optimistically by 2018.
2)40 Tejas MK1 by 2018.
3)Tejas MK2 if achieves FOC on time 50 by 2025.
4)Pakfa/FGFA 50 by 2025.
5)Remaining Su 30MKI delivered by 2019.

this does not even keep the available fleet size.
if this scenario remains same for next 10 years we will be at 35-38 squad even in 2030.

and here we are trying to get to 42 squadron.

You left out AMCA. AMCA project is highly ambitious. But if successful, it'll be inducted in large numbers.

 

[kumar2310s]

As of now minimum order has been already placed.
IAF is not very willing but IN is already on board to increase the orders once Tejas MK2 is ready.

Defense minister Manohar Parrikar has already conveyed that the funds will be re directed towards Tejas MK2....

Which competitiveness are you referring to here?

I mean there is a chance to incorporate Kaveri engine here given the amount of funding that will be available making less dependence on GE engines.

 

[tejas warrior]

guys, any information on Tejas Mk1.5 ?
Heard his term after induction of LCA and then no news after it. Does someone know latest ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MK 1.5 may have advance avionics of MK2 and ECM suit but regaining the old airframe and engine of MK1 ..

It will be commenced only after first lot MK1 comes out of production line by end of this finalization year ..

 

[Pulkit]

I mean there is a chance to incorporate Kaveri engine here given the amount of funding that will be available making less dependence on GE engines.

If I have to reply to this is one word then the answer will be "NO".
Reasons:
1)Most of the funds will be going into Tejas MK2 and in the current position IAF is never gonna agree to Kaveri.
2)Kaveri power is sufficient to run Tejas MK1 but for MK2 we need to have more power.
3)Unverified sources tell another engine on the base of Kaveri might be in progress but nothing official yet.
4)The funds saved does not mean we had them it only means we will not spending it and we all know that the issue was the funds only.... out of 40 billion available how can they do a deal of 20 b when FGFA and others are in queue.

@ersakthivel
@Kunal Biswas can shed more light on it

 

[Pulkit]

MK 1.5 may have advance avionics of MK2 and ECM suit but regaining the old airframe and engine of MK1 ..

It will be commenced only after first lot MK1 comes out of production line by end of this finalization year ..

Kunal sir... this 1.5 term was based on the electronic upgradation of the aircraft only right?
how will they phase this.
I mean by 2020 we will have Tejas MK1 40 and Tejas MK2 in production so what can we assume they will start this upgradation immediately once MK is ready ?

 

[power_monger]

@Kunal Biswas
MK 1.5 is more of a term referred to Tejas FOC version. IAF had ordered 40 tejas aircrafts.Out of this 20 was supposed to be in IOC configuration and rest 20 in FOC configuration. Recently IAF requested the Delivery of Tejas all in FOC format to which HAL has agreed(as per reports).So Only 4 aircrafts will be delivered in IOC and rest 36 in FOC version.This FOC version is referred as Teja 1.5 Mk1.

Tejas mk 1.5 does not have avionics of Mk2 as per my understanding.And 1.5 will still have external EW suite.Only in Mk2 we can expect internal EW suite which will make space for more weapons as EW suite was eating a pylon.

Please do correct if i am wrong.

 

[rohit pandey]

hey guys could anyone direct or answer what the COMBAT RADIUS of tejas will be with only
1.drop tank on fuselage
2. one drop tank on the wing .
can anyone could answer this or direct me to the relevant post .

 

[Pulkit]

@Kunal Biswas
MK 1.5 is more of a term referred to Tejas FOC version. IAF had ordered 40 tejas aircrafts.Out of this 20 was supposed to be in IOC configuration and rest 20 in FOC configuration. Recently IAF requested the Delivery of Tejas all in FOC format to which HAL has agreed(as per reports).So Only 4 aircrafts will be delivered in IOC and rest 36 in FOC version.This FOC version is referred as Teja 1.5 Mk1.

Tejas mk 1.5 does not have avionics of Mk2 as per my understanding.And 1.5 will still have external EW suite.Only in Mk2 we can expect internal EW suite which will make space for more weapons as EW suite was eating a pylon.

Please do correct if i am wrong.

it will basically be upgradation of electronics and computer programmes to the level of MK2 .
There will be all possible changes done apart from the structural changes and limitations.

No FOC version will not be MK1.5 as per my info.
FOC of Tejas MK1 will not include a huge list of changes done /Programming in progress for MK2.
It will only be possible once Tejas MK2 is completed.

KIndly do share you source of

So Only 4 aircrafts will be delivered in IOC and rest 36 in FOC version.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

PARRIKAR VOLTE-FACE OPENS DOOR FOR MORE RAFALE FIGHTERS

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, in a television interview on Tuesday evening, did not rule out buying more Rafale fighters, over and above the 36 that Prime Minister Narendra Modi requested the French government for during his visit to Paris in April.
On Thursday, Parrikar had declared that buying 90 less Rafale fighter than the 126 that was earlier planned, would save him money to buy more Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF).
"I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales," Parrikar had said in New Delhi.
Yet, on Tuesday, the defence minister backed off from that statement, declining to clarify whether the Rafale purchase would be capped at 36 fighters.

"I'm not saying we will buy more Rafale; I'm not saying we will not buy more," said Parrikar.

All that he confirmed is that French vendors would have to discharge offsets worth 50 per cent of the contract value; and that the final price for the Rafale would be cheaper than what Dassault had quoted for 18 ready-built fighters in its commercial bid in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender.
"In the MMRCA tender, Dassault was to supply 18 Rafales in flyaway condition, and also build 90 fighters in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Now Dassault is freed of the responsibility to 'Make in India'. The price they now supply the Rafale at should not just be lower, but at least 30-35 per cent lower than the price which included 'Make in India," says Pushpinder Singh, aerospace industry expert.
Parrikar says negotiations with France will start next week. On Monday, he had told Indian Express that the contract would be finalized in 2-3 months and the first Rafales would be supplied to the IAF within one year.

Parrikar also did a volte-face on the mountain strike corps (MSC), repudiating an earlier statement that it was being cut down by half to one-third.


On April 13, Parrikar had told Doordarshan: "I think we'll have to work out the size of it properly. It cannot be the size initially approved. It has to be slightly trimmed down." Soon after that, his ministry said that, instead of raising a 70,000-person corps for Rs 88,000 crore, the new corps would have half that number and cost Rs 38,000 crore over next eight years.
On Tuesday Parrikar said the MSC was being pared down only as a temporary measure because of a funding shortfall. When funds became available, the MSC would be built up to the strength planned by the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government, he clarified.
The defence minister also created another deadline for himself, promising on Tuesday that his ministry would finalise a proposal for a "chief of defence staff," or CDS, and send it up for cabinet sanction by end-June.
In the interview, Parrikar appeared slightly confused about whether the tri-service chief would be a five-star "chief of defence staff," as recommended by a Group of Minister in 2001; or a four-star "permanent chairman of the chiefs of staff committee" recommended by the Naresh Chandra Committee in 2012.
"What does a name matter?" he responded to a query by the interviewer. He added the new post would be significantly more powerful than the current three-star "chief of integrated defence staff" that coordinates tri-service planning.
Questioned on "one rank, one pension" (OROP), on which the government has slipped several deadlines, Parrikar stated it would be cleared in a "reasonable" time frame. The proposal was with the finance ministry, he said, and since they had not come back to him with any queries, he assumed it would be cleared. In January, Parrikar had stated that OROP would be implemented by July, within a year of it being publicly accepted by the new government. Parrikar reassured ex-servicemen that OROP would be implemented in full; and that arrears would be paid from April 2014.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-for-more-rafale-fighters-115052700033_1.html

 

[power_monger]

Finally we are getting more details of so called LCA MK 1.5 which is officially named LCA-1P which is LCA Mk-1 with AESA Radar andelectro-optic Electronic Warfare (EW) sensor suite

Read the whole details below.
HAL developing LCA-1P with AESA Radar

Bangalore. India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme has been delayed indeed, but to make up for it, HAL is now working on developing a new variant, LCA-I P, which will be equipped with an advanced AESA Radar and an electro-optic Electronic Warfare (EW) sensor suite.


The timeline for this variant has been set at 2017, two years from now. The AESA radar will be supplied by Israel’s ELTA Systems, a subsidiary of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). ELTA had earlier supplied its AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control) system for IAF’s IL-76 based Intelligence and surveillance aircraft, designated by IAF as AWACS (Airborne Warning & Control Systems) aircraft.

AESA, or Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, is the key component in the AWACS, enabling a 360 degree look-down-and-around capability to IAF for about 400 km. The aircraft is designed to guide combat fleets and ground assets in a war scenario. With no moving part, AESA is much faster in capability than earlier airborne radars in which rotodomes moved mechanically – and rather slowly – to scan different areas.

AESA in fact was always in the LCA programme, and there were discussions with some foreign companies as well as with the state-run BEL in developing it. Finally the choice has gone to ELTA, which in any case has been collaborating with BEL. LCA also has a sophisticated fly by wire system and glass cockpit. Once the programme gets going, HAL may manufacture some 200 aircraft for IAF and perhaps another 100 for the Navy.

AESA in the LCAs will obviously have a lower range, but it will be well integrated within the IAF network, and give a quantum technology jump to IAF’s combat capability. Notably, the 36 Rafales being acquired by IAF in the Government-to-Government deal will also have the AESA radar, developed by Thales.

IAF’s AWACS aircraft – three delivered, two on order – are already integrated with its combat, transport and land assets and also networked with aircraft of the Indian Navy.

HAL has in principle support from the Government, and is now working on the proposal with the IAF (Indian Air Force) in this regard. This variant will be developed on the existing LCA-MkI model, and will meet IAF’s requirements till the larger LCA Mk II is developed by 2021 with the more powerful GE 414 engine.

HAL Chairman and Managing Director (CMD) T Suvarna Raju told India Strategic in an interview that HAL shared the technology concerns of the user – IAF – as well as the urgency for production of the aircraft in view of the falling numbers of IAF combat squadrons due to obsolescence. The AESA and EW suite will make the new LCA variant more advanced than the supersonic MiG 21s in capability, even though it will be a subsonic aircraft compared to the ageing aircraft of the Soviet vintage.

A key technology being adopted now is 3D printing, which will cut design and production time by months. This is now being used for engines but it is being adopted for various aspects of aircraft design and production.

P in the LCA-I P stands for prototype, but once accepted by IAF, it could be designated LCA-MkI-A or whatever.



LCA-MkI, which achieved IOC-II (Initial Operational Capability, stage II) in January 2014 for acceptance by IAF as it is produced and tested, is yet to get the FOC (Final Operational Capability) but the focus now is on adding the EW package, originally planned for the LCA-MkII.

The aircraft will continue to have the same GE 404 engine however in this variant, but the lack of adequate power will be compensated by the warfare capability generated by the new sensors, with AESA providing a formidable force multiplication. This type of radar uses multiple frequencies to electronically scan several targets simultaneously.

The earlier radars used to have mechanically moving parts, whose output was painfully slow compared to the new generation electronic technology.

Notably, US companies Raytheon and Northrop Grumman have an established lead in the AESA systems while in Europe, Thales has just about achieved it for installation on Rafale and Eurofighter aircraft. In fact, AESA was a key requirement for India’s MMRCA (Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) competition, and the 36 Rafale jets being acquired from France should have both the AESA as well as the Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) system.

Israel is known for its excellence in electronic warfare systems, and ELTA should be able to meet IAF’s specific requirements.

Notably, IAF is not happy with the GE 404 engine, regarding it as underpowered for warfare. But only 40 aircraft are slated for production with this engine. For LCA-MkII aircraft, there is an agreement for 99 GE 414 engines already with the US engine maker. The production of that aircraft is due to begin from 2021.

The new LCA-MkI-P variant with the EW Package will also add some 50 kilos of more weight, but then, Mr Raju explained, the capability of the aircraft increases significantly, offsetting the disadvantage of a smaller engine.

The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos.

LCA-MkI and LCA-MkII are both single engine aircraft, hence the power of their engines to provide thrust to the aircraft and sustain their power-guzzling electric and electronic systems, particularly the radar, will always be critical.

There are two naval versions also with high landing gear as technology demonstrators. The naval version has to be much stronger than air force aircraft as every landing on the limited space of a carrier is like a crash landing, and the aircraft has to be stopped by one of the three onboard arrestor wires which latches on to a hook in the tail of the aircraft. If the attempt fails by chance, then the aircraft has to take off again, and that is why its engine(s) are kept on full power.

Mr Raju said that Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was taking personal interest in the development of indigenous technologies and systems, including in the LCA, and HAL was working to speed up whatever it could do.

For one thing, it is proposing now to take full charge of the LCA development programme to become the single responsible agency. Right now, the design and development of the aircraft, engines, weapons package etc, are with DRDO and its Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

During a recent visit to HAL, this writer saw several young engineers, one of them trained in the UK. Like them, Mr Raju had joined HAL while young some 40 years back. He is as passionate now as he was perhaps then. He observed optimistically: We are taking steps in talent and technology to meet the timelines.

There is an emphasis on composite materials, for which Indian companies, both in public and private sectors, need to do a lot. Significantly, about half of the LCA is made of composite materials, which are lighter but stronger than the aircraft grade aluminum.

HAL has built seven LCA-MkI aircraft under LSP (Low Rate Series Production) and two under the SP (Series Production).

Significantly, LCA has passed several crucial tests in operating from tough summer and mountainous terrains as well as in firing missiles.

 

[Khagesh]

Wow, great news. This one thing can change things greatly. I hope now the IAF finds it convincing to order more of the LCA Mk-1 rather LCA-1P. An AESA so fast on the LCA can give them a bigger bite than anything in the region.

From the report it does not seems like this is meant for the first 40 to be delivered. The delay on that count still remains as 20 of those were supposed to be IOC variants. Besides there is nothing to stop the 20+20 already on order from getting the same AESA radar later on.

This proposal seems to have potential to pre-empt any kind of delay in Mk-2 and perhaps may even allow some changes in the ASQR of Mk-2 - say addition of an IRST - even a podded IRST would be a great way forward. Currently Mk-2 is not supposed to have IRST.