ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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Kunal Biswas

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What @pmaitra saying is about dedicated CAS aircraft like SU-25 or A-10, Which are design to take abuse at very low level and only for ground assult ..

Tejas and other mordern multi-role fighters are design to provide CAS in form of high altitiude bombing and in absence of low level Airdefnce may be starfing with rocket pods and gun ..

Sir, being a multi role aircraft what lacks in Tejas to fulfill the CAS role?
 

Kunal Biswas

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I believe FOC is in June this year, This information is according to MOD report ..
 

Pulkit

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I believe FOC is in June this year, This information is according to MOD report ..
I googled on this was not able to find any source for this.
MOD has never been sure and the external sources have been more reliable when it comes to deadlines.

Atleast this will give ME a cushion if IF FOC does not take place in June...
 

Compersion

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was thinking about the other plane we have done ... the NAL Saras

was thinking why it is not possible to convert Saras into a type of CAS like the A-10 - even with improved armor for low level ground assault ... it is currently transport why we cannot convert into a proper weaponised CAS military outfit for low level ground assault especially for use against for example tanks and wheeled machinery ...

i am sure the famous indian jugaad can come into play. i understand we are looking at helicopters in a big way but it would be good to have something like the A-10 which flies slow but long and can carry some juice.

the linK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAL_Saras

"The original design target parameters included a maximum take-off weight of 6,100 kg and a maximum payload of 1,232 kg, a high cruise speed of over 600 km/h, an endurance of six hours, a maximum flight altitude of 12 km (cruise altitude 10.5 km), short take-off and landing distances of about 600 m"

when i look at the NAL Saras i see image in my mind of a Indian jugaad A-10 (dont know why) with powerful gatling type cannon and air to surface missiles and plenty of storage and capacity (weight and duration) for ammunition and weapon load. dont know why i feel the the character of it is suited for such a role.

The above along with a Tejas from higher above would provide a massive reach on the battle field (for such role)
 

tharun

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Why cant we take the gripen ng airframe and put our avonics,engine of tejas?
because gripen and tejas have same engine GE-F414(gripen uses volvo which is licence buit of F414)
Gripen can carry any missile from A-A to anti-ship missiles,but our tejas cannot carry anti-ship missile.
If we can build it cheaper so we can replace all old and different aircraft(mig-21,27,Jaguar,mirages)
 

rohit b3

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Why cant we take the gripen ng airframe and put our avonics,engine of tejas?
because gripen and tejas have same engine GE-F414(gripen uses volvo which is licence buit of F414)
Gripen can carry any missile from A-A to anti-ship missiles,but our tejas cannot carry anti-ship missile.
If we can build it cheaper so we can replace all old and different aircraft(mig-21,27,Jaguar,mirages)
How much cheaper?
Gripen C/D costs about 90-100mil$ Each as of 2014. Where as Tejas mk1 costs around 30 mil$.
 

tharun

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How much cheaper?
Gripen C/D costs about 90-100mil$ Each as of 2014. Where as Tejas mk1 costs around 30 mil$.
So you are talking about 30mil$ palne can't stay more time in air?
Cheaper depends on our manufacturing ability.
Gripen has lots of costly avonics,radars etc.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Tejas MK1 is design to carry 3 KH-35 or AGM-84 for Anti-ship purpose, The topic is related to NLCA MK1 ..

Their is no chance for Gripen as it was kickout of MRCA besides that Government cannot do another 10 years of trails and error saga with Gripen for Indian terrain ..

Tejas can go 1100kms without refuling or with external fuel tanks, The range is double with fuel tanks or mid air refuling, This was stated in Government PIB report on Tejas IOC2 ..

Why cant we take the gripen ng airframe and put our avonics,engine of tejas?because gripen and tejas have same engine GE-F414(gripen uses volvo which is licence buit of F414)Gripen can carry any missile from A-A to anti-ship missiles,but our tejas cannot carry anti-ship missile.If we can build it cheaper so we can replace all old and different aircraft(mig-21,27,Jaguar,mirages)
So you are talking about 30mil$ palne can't stay more time in air?
Cheaper depends on our manufacturing ability.
Gripen has lots of costly avonics,radars etc.
 

rohit b3

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Tejas MK1 is design to carry 3 KH-35 or AGM-84 for Anti-ship purpose, The topic is related to NLCA MK1 ..

Their is no chance for Gripen as it was kickout of MRCA besides that Government cannot do another 10 years of trails and error saga with Gripen for Indian terrain ..

Tejas can go 1100kms without refuling or with external fuel tanks, The range is double with fuel tanks or mid air refuling, This was stated in Government PIB report on Tejas IOC2 ..
Can you please link me the latest IOC 2 PIB? I remember reading it, but cant find it anymore.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Then its December 2015, June is perhaps on outdated article ..
 

Kunal Biswas

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Its written on its as upto 500kms and i underlined it, The odd 30 mins is more than sufficient for an light fighter it is not different from other in its class ..

I'm not saying ferry range.Combat radius?If some is on your tail at max speed mach(1.6)-1350km/hr it can stay only 30 odd minutes.
 

akshay m

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i usually don't quote Ajai Shukla, but he is bang on target this time.


CAG report overlooks Tejas LCA’s many triumphs

photo credit :Kedar Karmarkar
The Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG), in its report for the year ending March 2014 has examined “Issues relating to Design, Development, Manufacture and Induction of Light Combat Aircraft (Air Force)”, the indigenous fighter now called the Tejas Mark I.

Media reports have dwelt mainly on CAG’s criticism of the LCA, such as the delays that led to the fighter --- cleared in 1983 and intended to enter service in 1994 --- eventually taking 30 years to obtain Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December 2013. The IOC is a landmark at which the fighter can be inducted into air force service. The CAG report says Final Operational Clearance (FOC) --- which clears a fighter for combat --- of the LCA is likely only by December 2015.

CAG’s criticism

The CAG says the LCA that has got initial operational clearance fell short of Air Staff Requirements (ASR) --- a key document that lays out the LCA’s essential capabilities. With many of these capabilities still lacking, the IAF could grant initial operational clearance only with 20 permanent waivers and 33 temporary concessions. These 33 shortcomings --- which include increased aircraft weight, inadequate speed, reduced internal fuel capacity and the absence of an electronic warfare suite --- are to be made good before final operational clearance is granted, or in the LCA Mark-II, expected by December 2018.

The CAG report nowhere recognises that, in fighter design anywhere, prototypes invariably go overweight while accommodating all the capabilities and weaponry that the users optimistically specify. Then, while paring down weight, some capabilities are diluted, in consultation with the user air force. In this, the LCA has trodden a well-worn path.

The CAG also finds the LCA’s claimed indigenization exaggerated. While the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the LCA project, has estimated the LCA’s indigenous content to be 61 per cent (see graphic at bottom), the CAG says it "actually worked out to about 35 per cent" as of January 2015. In arriving at this percentage, the CAG does not differentiate between essential design-related and high technology aspects of the LCA and readily available products.

Criticising the slow pace of the LCA’s entry into service, the report notes that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s (HAL’s) manufacturing facilities can build just four fighters annually against an envisaged requirement of eight fighters per year. The CAG overlooks the fact that the IAF has ordered only 20 LCAs with another 20 promised after the fighter obtains final operational clearance. Even so, HAL is enhancing production to 16 LCAs per year, a decision that a future CAG report might comment on unfavourably if more IAF orders are not forthcoming.

The media, focused on criticism of the LCA, has overlooked the report’s praise for having successfully developed a modern fighter aircraft. The CAG “appreciate(s) the efforts made by ADA and its work centres in the indigenous development of LCA which is comparable to many contemporary aircraft in the world…”

Getting it right

Essentially, the CAG report is an auditor’s review of a complex, high technology platform development, which involves risks and uncertainties that are not easily captured in a simple balance sheet assessment of targets and budgets. Any assessment of the LCA must start from the fundamental question: what was the objective of developing this fighter? All such programmes choose between two objectives: either utilising readily available technologies to build a fighter that could rapidly enter operational service

or pursuing a “technology leapfrog” in building a next-generation fighter, developing new technologies alongside the fighter itself. Obviously, this would take longer, since inevitable delays in the new technology areas would delay the project further.

India’s defence planners went fundamentally wrong in simultaneously attempting both things: building a fighter quickly to replace the retiring MiG-21s, while also attempting, as a “catch-up nation”, to leapfrog technology ambitiously.

From the outset, the LCA was based on fourth-generation (Gen-4) technologies. The first of these is its “unstable design”, which makes it more agile and manoeuvrable than “stable” aircraft that are designed to hold the path they are flying on. Unstable design requires an on-board digital flight control computer that continuously trims the flight controls. A systems failure would be catastrophic, so the flight control system has four levels (quadruplex) backup, a sophisticated design challenge.

Second, the LCA is constructed largely of composite materials that are lighter than conventional metal alloys. This results in a lighter fighter that can carry more fuel and weapons. Third, the LCA has “microprocessor-based utilities”, which means that computers control all the on-board systems like fuel, weapons, environment control, etc. Fourth, the LCA has an all-glass cockpit, in which conventional dials are replaced by intelligent multi-function displays, and the pilot can fly, aim and operate weapons through a helmet-mounted display.

“In our very first attempt, we went in for a frontline, state-of-the-art aircraft. It was complete technological audacity to decide, ‘We’ve never built a fighter before but we’ll start with a Gen-4 design’. Astonishingly, we’ve managed this feat, albeit with delays”, says an ADA official who works at the cutting edge of the LCA programme.

Confrontation, not cooperation

Given the conflict between a high-risk development path and the need to induct fighters quickly, the stage was set for confrontation between the users (IAF) and the developers (ADA, HAL, et al). A former ADA chief says, “The core challenge is managing technology risk. The users demand more and fast; but you don’t have the technology in your hand. This pits the IAF versus DRDO.”

Consequently, the LCA programme has seen more confrontation than cooperation between the IAF and ADA. The CAG notes that, as early as 1989, an LCA Review Committee had recommended the “Need for a Liaison Group between Air HQ and ADA to ensure closer interaction between the design team and the user”. Yet, “no such liaison group was formed and active user (Air HQ) participation in the LCA Programme started only after November 2006, which also impacted the LCA development.”

Even as the IAF criticised ADA, its demands for additional capabilities in the LCA kept delaying the operational clearances. The CAG report points out that in December 2009, the air force asked for the R-73E air-to-air missile to be integrated with the LCA’s radar and the pilots’ helmet mounted displays. The CAG also blames the air force for taking too long to identify a “beyond-visual-range (BVR) missile” for the LCA. Continuing IAF demands for modifications still prevent the LCA design from being frozen for production.

Unlike the IAF, the navy adopted the Naval LCA programme from the start, committing personnel and over Rs 900 crore from the navy budget. Says former naval chief and distinguished fighter pilot Admiral Arun Prakash, “The navy knows the importance of indigenisation, having experienced how foreign aircraft like the Sea Harrier fighter and Sea King helicopter were grounded for lack of support. Unlike the air force, we are not critically dependent upon the LCA, since we have the MiG-29K. But we will support it because it is an Indian fighter.”

The cost-overrun myth

Taking on from the CAG report, numerous media reports have suggested that the LCA’s development cost has ballooned 25-fold, from the initially sanctioned Rs 560 crore to the current budget of Rs 14,047 crore. Both figures are incorrect. This newspaper’s detailed analysis of the LCA budget (February 22, 2011, “When a sword arm is worth it”) quoted the ADA chief, PS Subramanyam, who clarified that Rs 560 crore was not the budget for the entire Tejas programme, but merely for “feasibility studies and project definition”, which also included creation of the infrastructure needed for the new fighter.

The infusion of funds for actual design, development and building of prototypes only began in 1993, with the funds allocated under the heading of “full scale engineering development”. (see graphic below)

Equally misunderstood is the figure of Rs 14,047, which includes the cost of developing both the IAF and naval LCA, covering both the Mark I version as well as Mark II. As the graphic illustrates, the air force Tejas Mark I has so far cost Rs 7,490 crore, and is within its budget of Rs 7,965 crore.

Building capability, not just a fighter

For that amount, tiny compared to the billions that get sucked into developing fighters abroad, ADA says it has developed not just the LCA (and built 16-17 flying prototypes) but also an aerospace ecosystem --- DRDO laboratories, private industry, academic institutions, and test facilities like the National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC) --- that would allow India to build advanced fighters in the future.

Pushpinder Singh, noted aerospace expert and publisher of Vayu magazine, points out that the LCA has overcome all its major technology challenges. What remains, he says, is to tackle the final problems of converting it into a product --- issues like freezing specifications, evolving maintenance procedures and manuals, and the continuing challenge of establishing a fast-moving production line.

“Nothing prevents us from reconfiguring the technologies we have mastered through the LCA into indigenous fifth-generation aircraft like the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and the futuristic Unmanned Aerial Combat Vehicle (UCAV). The LCA has been an invaluable springboard and the AMCA will galvanise ‘Make in India’ more than anything done so far”, says Singh.

 

akshay m

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Parrikar declares money saved on Rafale will buy Tejas fighters to replace MiG-21s

Separately, Parrikar stated clearly for the first time that the 36 Rafale fighters that Prime Minister Narendra Modi requested the French government for during his visit to Paris last month would not be followed by more Rafales. Instead, the money saved by curtailing the Rafale contract would be used to buy large numbers of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

By buying 36 Rafale fighters at a price less than (what was quoted in response to) the earlier tender for 126 aircraft, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales. We will use that money to buy Tejas LCAs”, said Parrikar.

This will address the concerns of aerospace experts, who had questioned the plan to buy 126 Rafales (six squadrons) to take the place of MiG-21 squadrons retiring from service this decade. It has been argued that the Rafale is too heavy, expensive and capable to replace a cheap, light, utility fighter like the MiG-21.

“The Rafale is not meant to replace the MiG-21”, said Parrikar, stating that he would instead buy large numbers of Tejas fighters, which he said would come cheap at a price of around Rs 150 crore each.

The Indian Air Force (IAF), which currently has 34 fighter squadrons against an assessed requirement of 42 squadrons, will lose during this decade another 7-9 squadrons of MiG-21s and MiG-27s that have already exceeded their service lives.

Yet, the IAF has ordered o just 20 Tejas fighters (one squadron) from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), with an additional order of 20 more promised after the fighter achieves final operational clearance, expected in early 2016.

Asked whether he was satisfied with the Tejas’ performance, the defence minister replied he was “satisfied to a certain level”. The IAF had accorded performance waivers while giving initial operational clearance to the Tejas, but Parrikar pointed out that none of the waivers affected flight safety.
 
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