ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[ersakthivel]

After the CAG findings , following has been achieved,
the all weather clearance was obtained,and radome leakages sorted out.
wake penetration done,
brake deficiencies cleared,
the top speed mentioned by CAG for tejas at sea level is 1204 Km, mach 1 at sea level is 1225 Km.

So the shortfall from mach 1 is just 20 Km per hour nothing big so as to suggest design flaws.And ADA chief himself has said that tejas LSPs produced from low tech Jag production lines , has at least 6 percent aerodynamic deficiencies. And it wot be there from SO-3 onwards which are going to come from new high tech production lines. So lets see if mach speed at sea level is crossed or not. but the PIB press release of IOC-2 states that tejas is super sonic is at all altitudes . SO what is the truth right now is hazy.

Also IAF pathetically expressed that they dont even have preliminary knowledge about fighter design is shocking !!!!

And how can a fighter arm which has next to nothing knowledge about fighter design give a proper ASR?

SO the empty weight aim specified by IAF as 5500 Kg was unrealistic from the start . Thats why right from PV stage tejas consistently weighed 6.5 tons. ANd there is nothing wrong in that as gripen C too has about the same weight.


When CAG , queried why the liasion group between ADA and IAF for tejas design , which was to be set up by 1995 was set up only in 2007, IAf admitted they did not have preliminary design knowldge even to set up such a lission group is shocking!!!

With navy having fully functional and fully knowledgeable naval architects churning out ship design blue print, the admission by IAf that it doesn't even know the fighter design basics is the real reason behind the dumped marut and the delayed tejas programs.

Why such a state of affairs was allowed to exist is even more bizzare, Why couldn't IAF identify a few motivated pilots and asked them to pursue aeronautic engineering abroad and form a few dedicated fighter design teams that regularly churn out new ideas is a mystery to me.

Also the so called wrong air inlet clogging the engines which was the hobby horse used by tejas critics was not even mentioned in the passing!!!So it must be wrong also.

And the claim by IAF that finalization of weapon package should be done as close to operational deployment is even more stupid!!!
By the same logic will they ask Dassault to modify rafale to fit brahmos now?

What a jackass piece of logic is this?

Till 2009 IAF did not ask ADA to mate R-73 E to HMDS and radar!!!!

Till 2011 they didn't even identify the BVR!!!!

It seems the Derby missile which was to be mated to tejas has been procured only last year after IAf asked for this in 2011!!!!

So many reitred chair marshals of IAf who have been lying through their teeth that tejas is below mig-21 and all the delays were due to ADA should answer these above points,

Also by IAf's own admission they dont know jack about fighter design!!! A tech dummy Air force and lying generals faking non existing technical knowledge!!!! , which is dutifully reported by import lobby journalists as authoritative IAF view on tejas deisgn!!!!A combustible combination indeed.

Any way the saving grace is
the HMDS enabled R-73 E mating is over,
And Derby along with Quartz radome is already here to be mated and validated,
And 500 Kg russian ground bombs asked by IAF has been mated to tejas!!!

AOA 26 deg specified by IAF for 5500 Kg empty weight achieved even with 6500 Kg empty weight tejas.

So the weapon and radar combo is Okay .

And about the 53 critical shortfalls including brakes, all weather clearance and chutes , ADA says all of this has been done and only a dozen are being aimed for tejas mk2.

So a lot of developments have happened after CAG report also,

Thats why authoritative IAF test pilots swear that even tejas Mk1 is superior or equal to 45 million dollar per plane upgrade of mirage-2000.

Even the noted defence analyst Maroof Raza in today's Times Now Newshour program high lighted the severe maltreatment of tejas by IAF , which specified all needed weapons only in 2009 and 2011 and kept on adding cascading ever increasing requirements,

It is no wonder that the present IIT Eng educated defnce minister Manohar Parrikar severely castigated our defence forces for their "marvel comics " approach when it comes to ASR or GSQR definition!!! that too in the presence of our Ex Army chief by his side!!!

Well other than navy , no other indian defence arm has any worth while defence design tech it seems. In a nation bristling with largest number of engineering graduates this is a shame!!!

User doesn't know shit about fighter design,So how will they get involved?
But our retired chair marshal M. MAtheswaran once wanted to head the tejas project!!!!
And wanted to shut it down!!!!
By God's grace this has been avoided and we have a reasonable fighter at hand.

The question to be asked is Why IAF remained and continues to remain a tech dummy Air Force?

Why cant IA and IAf recruit few bright Eng grads and start their own design bureaus , like navy did?

Then only they can give realistic ASRs and GSQR

So tejas is not as operationally handicapped as many lying retired IAF chairmarshals make it out to be!!!

The report is for the period between 2009 and 2013.

now it is mid 2015. SO wake penetration, all weather clearance,sorting out braking problem and supersonic speeds at sea level are all done and it is not reflected in this report as these are latest developments,

Refer to PIB release of tejas at IOC-2.

Initial design was good. Final design is also good thats why award winning test pilot and experienced Mirage-2000 test pilot IAF group captain,Suneeth Krishna precisely said that ,"at its present form tejas mk1 is at least equal to the 45 million per plane upgraded mirage-2000".

CAG lists the primary reasons for delays , which were all due to late weapon specs by IAf as lates as 2009 and 2011 fro R 73 e mating with HMDS and Derby BVR.

Since tejas weapons package is all sorted out and STR crossing 16 deg per second even in hot indian conditions, there is no need to buy another single engined fighter for IAF.

Thats is what reflected in the presnt IAF chief's Aroop raha's categorical remark that ,"there is no doubt bout the fighting potential of tejas in IAF".

Retired IAf song birds can sing whatever they want, those doesn't count.

 

[ersakthivel]

And this PIB press release details all that is achieved by tejas at IOC-2,
LCA Tejas Gets Initial Operational Clearance for Induction into IAF

IOC of LCA a Major Milestone in Self-Reliance: Antony


Flight Safety Record of Tejas is Unprecdented in Aviation History: ACM Browne


The Defence Minister Shri AK Antony today handed over the Release to Service Certificate of the country’s own Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, to the Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, at a function in Bengaluru, marking the fruition of a long and difficult journey of three decades of efforts to make a fighter aircraft of international standards.

Described as Initial Operational Clearance-II of Tejas, the LCA is designed to ultimately replace the Mig 21 fleet of IAF. The timing of IOC- II for LCA coincides with the iconic Mig 21 FL fighter flying into IAF’s history just a week ago.

Visibly happy at today’s event, Shri Antony said, during the last three years, the capabilities of the aircraft have been improved significantly. “In recognition of the enhanced capabilities, IAF has decided to grant the aircraft a higher status, namely, the Initial Operational Clearance for induction into the Service”, he said.

Shri Antony candidly confessed that he had his share of anxieties regarding the future of LCA when he had taken over as the Defence Minister in 2006 but today we are putting behind the moments of self –doubt, frustrations and setbacks which we as a nation have gone through in the last 30 years.

“The improvements to the aircraft have enhanced the flight envelope of the aircraft and also weapon delivery capability of the aircraft. The performance at Iron Fist, Jaisalmer and the recent missile firing at Goa are examples of such improvements.


The reliability of the aircraft and serviceability has also been enhanced. The number of flights nearing 500 within this year provides an indication of this. Operating at IAF bases namely, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer, Uttarlai, Gwaliar, Goa, Leh, Pathankot demonstrate the aircraft capability to operate from Air Force bases.


There have also been occasions when the same aircraft has flown thrice on the same day, indicating the operational reliability of this home-bred fighter aircraft ”, he said.

Shri Antony said military aviation in the country has got a major boost with the approval of several new programmes. Some of these programmes include – Mk2 variants of Navy and Air Force; Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft; Unmanned Air Systems; Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and Medium Transport Aircraft, to name a few.

Describing the attainment of Initial Operational Clearance as an important milestone in the long journey towards indigenization through self-reliance, Shri Antony said, our public and private sector must work in tandem to develop and produce world-class military systems of the highest quality.

The Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said it is indeed a proud day for the nation and particularly for the IAF; since the grant of IOC acknowledges the capabilities of this aircraft and paves the way for the induction of LCA Mk 1 into operational service. He said the progress of such a challenging experimental project without any accident or major incident is unprecedented in the history of aviation.

On a personal note, ACM Browne said as he prepares to hang his uniform at the end of this month, he would have gone home as a disappointed person if the IOC of the LCA had not been achieved.

Today’s event was attended among others by the Scientific Advisor to RM Shri Avinash Chander, Secretary Defence Production Shri GC Pati, Chairman of HAL Shri RK Tyagi, Programme Director of ADA Shri PS Subramanyam, DG- Aero and CE CEMILAC Dr K Tamil Mani.

A Long Journey

The Country had embarked on an ambitious plan to indigenously design and develop the Light Combat aircraft (LCA) to be inducted into IAF and Indian Navy inventory. The Programme has been spearheaded by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore under the Department of Defence R & D, with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as its principal partner. A large number of Laboratories of Defence Research & DevelopmentOrganisation (DRDO) and Central Scientific & Industrial Research (CSIR), certification agencies, Indian Air Force, academic institutions and Private/Public Sector Undertakings participated in the LCA development effort.

Indian Light Combat Aircraft, christened ‘Tejas’, is the smallest, light weight, single engine, single seat, supersonic, multirole, combat aircraft and is one of the best in its class in the world. The quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system ensures acceptable handling qualities while ensuring adequate safety throughout the flight envelope. The advanced Glass cockpit open architecture system complements piloting. Four variants of Tejas aircraft (Combat variant, Trainer and Naval variants) are being developed for land and carrier borne operations.

The Initial Operational Clearance-1 (IOC-I) for ‘Tejas’ was achieved on 10 Jan 2011. In IOC-I, the Aircraft had a few limitations in terms of Combat performance, turn around time and its weaponisation which had to be refined and improved through Research & Development process. In addition to this, Wake penetration trials, all weather clearances were planned beyond IOC-1.

Since IOC-1, ‘Tejas’ has accomplished significant milestones. Till date, more than 2450 sorties have been completed to achieve the flight test goals towards IOC-2. The design issues were resolved with System Engineering approach and by periodical reviews with participation of external experts.

The salient features which have been achieved in IOC-2 include Safe flying up to High angle of Attack as mandated by the users.


This has considerably enhanced the combat performance of the aircraft. The Flight control system evaluation has also been completed.


The time for initial built-in test has been reduced considerably which enables faster turn around and enhanced operational readiness of aircraft. The Brake system has been improved significantly in terms of energy absorption capability during landing, thus ensuring prompt turn-around of the aircraft.


Significant improvement in Cockpit ergonomic and lighting system has been accomplished for improved night flying. In-flight re-light capability was demonstrated to ensure enhanced safety and reliability of the aircraft. This is a major achievement.


Avionics and Weapon system of the aircraft have been revamped for effective mission superiority. Helmet Mounted Display Sight (HMDS) has been fully integrated in Tejas and R73E missile firing has been successfully demonstrated using HMDS.

Multi Mode Weapon multirole capability of Tejas was demonstrated during its participation in Iron Fist. Air to Ground mission and Air to Air missions were demonstrated by dropping Laser Guided Bombs and R73E firing in single pass. Laser Guided Bomb firing has been achieved for IOC-2 to user’s satisfaction.

Aircraft readiness for missions in terms of its readiness and Operational Readiness Platform (ORP) and Turn Round Service (TRS) and easier maintainability has been achieved as per requirement thus enhancing operational readiness of the aircraft.

Tejas has passed all the tests for “All Weather Clearance” of the aircraft. The Aircraft has been cleared for fly without any telemetry support.

IOC-2 shall enable Air Force to carry out air superiority and offensive air support missions, forward air field operations, all weather multi role operations, Electronic counter measures and night flying operations.

LCA Tejas is capable of flying non- stop to destinations over 1700 km away (Ferry Range). It's Radius of Action is upto 500 km depending upon the nature and duration of actual combat.

LCA is powered by the F404/IN20- a well proven turbofan engine, designed and manufactured by General Electric Aircraft Engines, USA. The Engine is modular in construction, consisting of six modules, ensuring easy maintenance. The F404-GE-IN20 is a low bypass turbofan engine, with augmented thrust provided by the afterburner.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

First Sqn of 20 IOC-standard Tejas expected to be delivered by 2017-18, Def Min manoharparrikar informs Rajya Sabha .

https://twitter.com/writetake/statu...91011072&utm_campaign=writetake&utm_medium=fb

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Never mind, HAL has to improve also need for other production lines ..

 

[Khagesh]

HAL behaves like a Job-worker.

That was its survival strategy yesterday. But that is an obstruction for tomorrow.

People wish for it work like systems integrator.

Hence the frustration.

How many companies in the world of HAL's size design, build, service helicopters, military jets, transporters, UAVs, Heavy Lift Rockets, gliders, airport services. These people are crazy.

HAL needs to be taken to the Disinvestment ministry. Break it up into more focused entities. A calibrated opening up of military aviation with control in Indian hands would force all future governments to dance to the tune of this local industry. If that is too much work then at least ask HAL to become a holding for several subsidiaries in PPP model for different products. They are here to serve the nation not the other way round.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Let it be Army, Airforce or PSUs, All were neglected in last 60 years or more, No wonder they came out what it is now ..

Now correcting the mistake of 6 decade cannot be done in just few months, Paid media only shows what is a fault it has no interest in showing what done to put out the problem ..

HAL will be fine in time and Pvt sector will come forward as full fleged and independent manufactures as without them this nation cannot stand on its feet ..

 

[Ray]

What's the time line on tejas mk2 ?

India and the US have finalised a USD 600 million deal for supplying 99 jet engines to be used in the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas' being developed by the DRDO. Around two years ago, India had selected the American company General Electric over its rival European Eurojet 2000 for the LCA Mark II programme expected to be ready around 2014-15.
http://www.defencenow.com/news/1073/india-us-ink-usd-600-million-deal-for-fighter-engines.html

But has there been some progress? @Kunal Biswas

 

[Anikastha]

Todays pic in idrw shows tejas with black and white square sticker in tail and wings ..

spin and recovery tests going on ?

Or an old photo..

nice..

 

[Anikastha]

Costly $20 bn Rafale deal hits dead end, Parrikar says LCA to replace MiG 21s

New Delhi: India today said all future negotiations for purchase of French Rafale fighters would be through government to government route, discarding direct talks with manufacturers.
Dassault Rafale had won the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) competition for 126 fighter jets in 2012. AFP

The disclosure by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar came two days after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly-away condition from the French government directly, sidestepping gruelling three-year negotiations for Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA)
tender.

Modi announced purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly-away condition from the French government
directly, sidestepping a gruelling three-year negotiations for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender.

While initially the tender was valued at about $10 billion for 126 aircraft, the current price is estimated to be over $20 billion, over which India had serious reservations.

Noting that negotiations had entered into a "loop" or a "vortex" with no solution in sight, Parrikar said direct negotiations with France will now decide how much more Rafale aircraft has to be bought and whether it will be under 'Make in India' programme.

The minister refrained from giving a direct reply to questions whether the requirement of Air Force for more MMRCA will be through Rafale or if any other player can come into action.

"Scope was only possible in government to government deal. Instead of going through the Request for Proposal (RFP) route where there was lot of confusion and chaos, it was decided that we will go through the G2G route," he said explaining that 36 Rafale jets would be procured in ready-to-fly condition.

He said what has to be done about the rest would be decided after discussions between the two governments.

Asked what will happen to 'Make in India' initiative, Parrikar said, it would be decided after proper discussions.

He said, he won't be able to give more details as the "fine print of what has been agreed in not with me".

Underlining that it was his personal opinion, Parrikar said in certain strategic areas like defence, government-to-government (G2G) route was better.

"Whenever you have complex platform to be acquired, government routes are normally better routes," he said giving the example of DTTI between India and US.

He refused to give a timeline for the delivery of 36 Rafale jets saying, at the prime minister's level, the nitty-gritty of a deal is not worked out.

"You agree with the principle. The principle has been agreed. Now the two sides will sit together and will work out all the details," he said.

Asked if India can go beyond 126 Rafale jets, Parrikar said, 126 was itself a "financially a steep slope to climb".

He said that everything will depend on discussions.

"That (Make in India) will depend on how we negotiate. What is the total quantum (of order). We may not go for full 126. That will be decided after we discuss at government to government level," the minister said.

Asked if this means the MMRCA tender has been scrapped or will die a natural death, the minister pointed out that he has neither said it will die nor that it was scrapped.

"But I can say that it has gone into a loop or vortex. That is why this route had to be taken to break the vortex... now if you start the process once again, by the time you complete it, it will take five years. Day by day, it was becoming more stiff," Parrikar said.

He said the G2G route was taken to break the ice.

Talking about the operational requirement of the Indian Air Force, which currently has 34 Squadrons, Parrikar said LCA would be replacing the ageing MiG 21s, whose life has been extended by another eight years or so.

He underlined that Indian now has better missile technology now than the time when the ideal squadron strength for IAF was registered at 42.

Parriker termed it as "strange", the decision of the previous government to designate only HAL as the partner under the tender.

He said the main problem was the man power ration proposed by HAL which was 2.7, which was "very high" in terms of cost.

Asked from where he will get the money, he said, management of resources was known to him as he had the
experience of running a "state government without money when the mining ban was on".

WTF!!!! So we are not going get these rafale??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

As long as people don`t get free from MK1, They cannot work on MK2 ..

MK1 will get its FOC at the end of this year, Only after that we can know about proper timeline of MK2 ..

=========

The news is little old, But the interesting part here that the type of engine is purchased is going to be licensed manufactured within the country ..

The licensed engine will go for rest of Tejas MK2 ..

India and the US have finalised a USD 600 million deal for supplying 99 jet engines to be used in the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas' being developed by the DRDO. Around two years ago, India had selected the American company General Electric over its rival European Eurojet 2000 for the LCA Mark II programme expected to be ready around 2014-15.
http://www.defencenow.com/news/1073/india-us-ink-usd-600-million-deal-for-fighter-engines.html

But has there been some progress? @Kunal Biswas

 

[mahesh]

India's auditor general brands Tejas 'operationally deficient'

India's Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has said the Tejas Mk I is operationally deficient. Source: IHS/James Hardy
India's Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) declared on 8 May that the locally designed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk I was "operationally deficient" and its pilots vulnerable even to 7.62 mm rounds fired at the fighter's front end.

In the 63-page report tabled in parliament, Shashi Kant Sharma revealed that the long-delayed LCA Mk I, which obtained its second initial operational clearance (IOC-2) in December 2013, had failed to meet the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) air staff requirements on numerous counts.

It disclosed that to secure IOC-2, the LCA Mk I - under development by the state-run Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) since 1983 - had to be granted 53 waivers, of which 20 were permanent.

The latter would remain, the CAG said, even after the platform secured its final operational clearance (FOC) scheduled for December 2015. IAF sources said FOC was likely to be deferred.

The LCA Mk I obtained its first IOC from the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification in Bangalore in January 2011, only for it to be re-confirmed in 2013 by the definitive IOC-2.

The persistent shortcomings, some of which were still under design, development, and testing, include excessive weight, engine thrust, reduced internal fuel capacity, non-compliance of all-weather operations, non-achievement of single-point defueling fuel system protection, and pilot protection. They restrict the "operational efficiency and survivability of the aircraft, thereby limiting its employability when inducted into IAF squadrons", the report said.

It is also "deficient in electronic warfare (EW) capabilities as specified by the IAF, as the self-protection jammer could not be fitted on the aircraft due to space constraints", the report stated.

The CAG said many of the LCA's inadequacies were caused by it being powered by the General Electric F404-GE-IN20 engine. The engine's 80-85 kN thrust limited its angle of attack and weapons-carrying capacity.

It anticipated that many deficiencies will be rectified in the LCA Mk II, which will be fitted with the more powerful General Electric GE-414 engine, which generates 90-96 kN thrust. LCA Mk II is expected to make its maiden test flight around 2018-19 and go into series production around 2022-23.

 

[pmaitra]

The LCA is not a close air support aircraft. It might be touted as a multi role aircraft, but providing close air support is definitely not one of its roles.

Now, what is the likelihood of the LCA being engaged by 7.62 mm rounds?

 

[anupamsurey]

and do the private companies have any expertise in handling such a contract, its not a video game or fictional story where you can make anything in a short period. training technicians to do a quality work will alone take a quality time (3-4 yrs). so privatization alone is not a viable solution.

 

[sgarg]

and do the private companies have any expertise in handling such a contract, its not a video game or fictional story where you can make anything in a short period. training technicians to do a quality work will alone take a quality time (3-4 yrs). so privatization alone is not a viable solution.

This country has only seen HAL. There is no empirical evidence of what private sector can do in building a fighter. However results are encouraging wherever private sector is involved in defence projects.

Nothing wrong in trying private sector. Let there be two lines - one in HAL and other in private sector. Let them compete with each other.

 

[Khagesh]

The LCA is not a close air support aircraft. It might be touted as a multi role aircraft, but providing close air support is definitely not one of its roles.

Now, what is the likelihood of the LCA being engaged by 7.62 mm rounds?

7.62 proof glass was essentially a US requirement because that is what they aircrafts faced during earlier times. When the CAS targeting was sloppy and there were limited way so approaching a target. They even had the C-130s proofed for 7.62 ammo. Probably a hangover from Vietnam.

I don't claim that it is not relevant for IAF but the times as changing so fast that it is crazy to even raise this as an issue.

Newer evolution in tactics and equipment has simply made it irrelevant to care about this one thing as a big issue. This is not a castigation issue worthy of hair pulling.

Mig 27 UPGs were delivering iron bombs at 15 mtr from target at the max., from as far away as 7.5 km. You are not going to strafe a target with your guns. Why? Simple reason the aircraft is too precious for that kind of stupid mission. And the man inside is exactly as precious. Pilots don't fly around with red scarves anymore. We don't live in an era when people could be put on planes with minimal flight training. Nor are these the times when you can churn out aircrafts by the hundreds. So what man in his right mind would risk old style CAS. CAS itself is evolving. The targeting sights are much better, INS are much better, ground mapping is much better, to afford like say twice the bombs away distance for same kind of accuracy and all the end result at minimal exposure to the aircarfts. Then there's cluster munitions and reasonably priced laser guidance and el-cheepo GPS/GLONASS/IRNSS guidance.

The very fact that this is raised as an issue implies that the CAG himself needs to be audited. There is no effort in the report to be fair and absolutely none to be correct. You read that report you risk brain-freeze and a drained out weekend.

I think Shashi Kant Sharma is more suited in India's Got Talent, then in the CAG office.

 

[anupamsurey]

no empirical evidence

u agree that the private sector is untested.

results are encouraging wherever private sector is involved

on the other hand you say that there are encouraging results, do you measure success based on untested results. at least give me an example of single product which is made entirely by a private sector esp. in use by army or airforce. none.

trying private sector

thts what i pointed out. if you want to experiment something with private sector with nil experience then, do it on your own risk with expense of 5-6 years to get an untested machine out. by then HAL will have finished its work

 

[brational]

First Tejas fighter squadron expected by 2017-18



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-expected-by-2017-18/articleshow/47318229.cms

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It is worth noting, That Tejas are already in production and June FOC is on target ..

Source : MOD annual report ..

 

[Zebra]

The LCA is not a close air support aircraft. It might be touted as a multi role aircraft, but providing close air support is definitely not one of its roles.

Now, what is the likelihood of the LCA being engaged by 7.62 mm rounds?

Sir, being a multi role aircraft what lacks in Tejas to fulfill the CAS role?

BTW, I saw at-least one post on DFI, he asked something like........ever you tried to shoot any aircraft (from ground), who fly above 500 knots.

 

[pmaitra]

Sir, being a multi role aircraft what lacks in Tejas to fulfill the CAS role?

BTW, I saw at-least one post on DFI, he asked something like........ever you tried to shoot any aircraft (from ground), who fly above 500 knots.

Please refer to this post, and also read a few posts before and after it.