ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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power_monger

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[tweet] 545974096568135680 [/tweet]

Delay in FOC is due to Cobham not delivering either the IFR probe or the quartz noze cone this year.Both will be delivered by March 2015 after which each will quite a few certification flights. IAF teams have been sent to London.
 
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pramsin

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I may be new but i am not stupid , with a engineering background i well understand aircraft specs , fact is LCA is most under powered , under ranged aircraft and there is still no operational squadron .
Hard to imagine any other use for this than to defend against any incoming attack
Ok Mr. Genius

America Invented this machine and made so many aircrafts but they still have problems with new aircrafts with F-16, f-22 Raptor, F-35 Lightening you name it. When you make an aircraft it takes time to completely develop that product takes years. Though America has developed 100s of aircrafts they still can not develop perfect aircraft in 1st time. India is developing 2nd aircraft. It is now under powered.
Range will increase, # will increase their strength with increase. I do not think that you were born nor born 6ft tall, 100 kg, educated.
How many year did it take for you to reach this stage? Surprise.

We did good job in making this aircraft. We will do better in nest one and better in next one and much better in next one. I have faith in Indian engineers, scientist. And thing will be better with Mr. Modi being prime minister.
 

Android

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Delay in FOC is due to Cobham not delivering either the IFR probe or the quartz noze cone this year.Both will be delivered by March 2015
They were perviously said to be delivered by Nov'14, no they say,it we would be diliverd by march'15. Why has there been such a delay by cobham plc ?
 

cobra commando

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The Radiance of Tejas: A bright prospect for 'Make in India'

I must state at the outset, that the title of this post is a tribute to B.Harry, a true geek whose wantonly premature demise was a major loss to the analysis and archival of Indian military research and development (R&D). Needless to say, he is greatly missed by Indian military buffs, though his writings live on, such as this excellent two-part document (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/downloads/Tejas-Radiance.pdf) on the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) published in 2004. Ten years have passed since that paper came out, and today deliveries of combat standard units of the HAL Tejas Mk-I are beginning with the first 'series production' aircraft, SP-I taking to the air in late 2014. SP-I therefore marks the arrival of India's first indigenous combat capable fourth generation fighter that boasts the extensive use of carbon composites (more than 70 per cent of the airframe by weight) an indigenous quadruplex digital flight control system, indigenous mission computers and a modern glass cockpit capable enabling all weather day/night operations and the carriage of precision guided weapons.


Read more:
Saurav Jha's Blog : The Radiance of Tejas: A bright prospect for 'Make in India'
 

power_monger

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The Radiance of Tejas: A bright prospect for 'Make in India' -Sauravjh

A nice read.Do not miss it.it answers lot of question on what LCA MK1 is capable and why IAF has not ordered more than 40 MK1.

The Radiance of Tejas: A bright prospect for 'Make in India'

Some of the Sailent points are :

LCA Tejas Mk-1

1) The full scale engineering development (FSED) phase-I for the Tejas program began only in 1993 with Rs 2188 crore being allocated to the program.The scope of the 'spend' on FSED phase I was limited to building and flight testing two technology demonstrators only.

2) The first LCA flight gave enough confidence to the government to sanction Rs 3301.78 crores for FSED Phase-II that involved the design, development and flight testing of 3 Prototypes and 8 Limited-Series. production (LSP) units.

3) LCA MK1 has exceeded 1995 ASR in many paramters like, the Mk-I had exceeded the angle of attack (AoA) requirement of 24 degrees, by some two degrees (i.e it has achieved 26 degrees), which is highly commendable and comparable to the best that the Mirage 2000 could do. This could even be increased to 28 degrees in the future.the Mk-I has also demonstrated +7G and has flown at a maximum Mach number of 1.6 at altitude.

4) FOC for the Tejas Mk-I is now expected to be achieved only by late 2015. This is due to delay by Cobham in delivering Quartz nose cone and bolt on inflight refuelling (IFR) probe.

5) However its aerodynamic performance has not met 1995 ASR in its entirety. The ASR agreed upon by ADA was difficult to achieve in its current state with or without canards. This was reason why only forty units of the Tejas Mk-I fighter version have been ordered till date by the IAF.

6) The IAF had concerns about Mk-I's turn-around time and wanted modifications which was not possible to execute as the design aspects were frozen long time back.Additionally lot of additional requirements were raised by IAF to keep the aircraft contemporary which included things like the integration of a supersonic drop tank(which was met).But Mk-1 has dis-proven its concerns on maitnenance by flying up to three sorties on a single day during trials in both Leh and Jaisalmer on several occasions.

7) More orders of Mk-I are expected as they are superior to Mig-21s which are expected to serve till 2020.In a single sortie during Iron Fist-2013, the Mk-I demonstrated air-to-air capability by firing a R-73E missile and air-to-ground capability by dropping laser guided bombs (LGBs) directed by a LITENING pod carried on one of its pylons.


LCA Tejas Mk-2


1) Tejas Mk-2 is built now to address the 1995 ASR completly.It uses more powerfull engine 98KN F414-GE-INS6.99 units of the Engine has been ordered so far.

2) Contrary to earlier speculation, Tejas Mk-II does not require an intake re-design since the MK-I intake was designed to be used with the Kaveri engine which has a greater mass flow than the current F404-GE-IN20 . Studies showed that existing intake could easily handle the additional mass flow from the F414-GE-INS6.

3) In 'weight reduction approach' Mk-2 has already redcued 350 Kgs of the intended 500 Kgs.it will also see 5% improvement in drag characteristics.These changes are expected to increase Aerodynamic performance to the required 1995 ASR level.

4) The Mk-II design will address the sustained turn rate (STR), climb rate and transonic acceleration shortfalls of the Mk-I. The ASR requires a STR of 18 degrees (same as the F-16's) and Mk-II will close in on that. The climb rate will also be more or less satisfactorily reached. Transonic acceleration is expected to be realized fully. Moreover the Mk-II airframe will certainly be able to reach and fly through Mach 1.8 in a dive.

5) Mk-II will has DRDO's Uttan AESA radar which is 40 kgs more than current MMR radar which will checked for maturity in Dec 2015.Hardware has been realized for this radar which has a range of 100 km and rooftop testing is underway.

6) ADA & IAF are both not in favour of getting Israeli offer on the EL/M-2052 as they are quite satisfied with progress on Uttam AESA radar.

7) The glass cockpit for the Mk-II is completly new which has bigger displays of 8 x 12 inch displays rather than the 5 x 5 and 6 x 6 inch displays currently featured in the MK-I cockpit. A prototype of the Mk-II cockpit has been developed already.The initial lot of MK-II displays will be imported, in the future Samtel will supply indigenously developed ones.

8) The 'Inboard' i.e the complete layout for the Mk-II has been is frozen. The Mk-II has 25-30 percent commonality in parts with the MK-I and these parts (i.e not requiring any modification) are already in production. For the MK-I parts that have to be modified, thousands of new drawings are being worked upon jointly by DRDO-HAL and the private sector. According to Dr Tamil Mani 'The final Mk-II drawings will be completed by December 2015.'


finally IAF wants the first flight of the prototype to happen by 2017, but Dr Tamilmani says that given the extensive instrumentation and system check out requirements, it could be that first flight spills over into 2018. A total of four test vehicles will be built and all of these will be of production standard. At least three of these at a minimum will be in airborne testing before the end of 2019 and FOC is likely to be achieved in another 2-2.5 years from then.
 
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power_monger

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Where is the thread which i created just now? Oh i had taken long time to write sailent points of it in a very descriptive way.
 

pmaitra

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Where is the thread which i created just now? Oh i had taken long time to write sailent points of it in a very descriptive way.
It has been merged with this thread. Do not open multiple threads on the same topic.
 

power_monger

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It has been merged with this thread. Do not open multiple threads on the same topic.
The reason why i opened new thread was - this post gave complete information on LCA Mk-I and Mk-II and cleared almost all the doubts on which many members have written Hundreads of post and fought n number of times.It was very important post which could have gone un-noticed in this thread.if you read this post,you will realise this.Anways i leave it up to you guys.
 

pmaitra

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The reason why i opened new thread was - this post gave complete information on LCA Mk-I and Mk-II and cleared almost all the doubts on which many members have written Hundreads of post and fought n number of times.It was very important post which could have gone un-noticed in this thread.if you read this post,you will realise this.Anways i leave it up to you guys.
Sir, the reason why I merged it into this thread is suitably explained in your very own post. Now, that is a second reason, apart from having too many threads on the same topic.

Frankly, I see no reason to have yet another thread.
 

power_monger

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Sir, the reason why I merged it into this thread is suitably explained in your very own post. Now, that is a second reason, apart from having too many threads on the same topic.

Frankly, I see no reason to have yet another thread.
Fine.I appreciate and accept the reason.
 

Kharavela

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Rafale Deal Nosedives in Negotiation Combat

NEW DELHI: The much-awaited multi-billion dollar Rafale combat aircraft deal with France has once again run into rough weather. After negotiations of almost three years, it has now hit a 'deadlock' with both India and France refusing to concede to the other's demands.

When Rafale was declared the lowest bidder in January 2012, all eyes were on the inking of this deal that was touted as the 'mother of all defence deals'. But the cost negotiation committee set up in February 2012 to work out the modalities for the deal has not reached a conclusion yet.

The newly-appointed Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and a top official of his ministry are determined to block the deal till the ministry's demands are accepted by the French side. Though during the recent visit of French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian earlier this month Parrikar had assured he would do everything in his power to expedite the deal, he is firm that his ministry's demands must be accepted first. According to defence ministry officials privy to developments, at a presentation on the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme a fortnight back, Parrikar said that the government must stand its ground and not give in during negotiations. Parrikar's opinion is seconded by the Joint Secretary and Acquisition Manager (Air) Rajeev Verma, who plays a key role in the deal. Verma, a 1992 UT-cadre IAS officer, has made it clear that till the French side agrees to ministry's demand, which was specified in the original tender, there will be no progress on the matter. During recent meetings of the negotiations committee, Verma has been virtually hostile towards the deal, say sources.

After cost escalation, the French major Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale fighter jets, has refused to take "full responsibility" for the 108 fighters to be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) as per the original tender. Eighteen of the 126 planes will be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture the other 108 under a licence, at an upcoming facility in Bangalore. "The ministry is in no hurry to conclude the negotiations despite what people may say. Dassault has to accept commitment mentioned in the RFP (Request for proposal)," a key defence ministry official said on the condition of anonymity.

Another ministry insider said the production sharing agreement with HAL is stuck as well. Furthermore, Dassault is not agreeing to HAL's demand that it take responsibility for manufacture in India, regardless of French government's pressure. It is too risky, according to a defence ministry source.

"After cost escalation, now accepting terms and conditions of the original tender have emerged as the key issue to be resolved. The RFP clearly stated that under the transfer of technology agreement, the French will have to fully comply with it and also take full responsibility of Indian manufactured fighter jets," said a senior defence ministry official. Officials say in 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (`42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (`90,000 crore). Now with inclusion of transfer of technology, life cycle cost and creating assembly line, the deal has virtually crossed a whopping $20 billion.

The Air Force is seeking to replace its ageing MiG-21s with a modern fighter and MMRCA fits well between India's high-end Sukhoi-30MKIs and its low-end Tejas LCA lightweight fighter. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons. However, it only has 32 squadrons operational as old aircraft have been retired. M/s Dassault Aviation of France, the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) of Rafale aircraft, emerged as L-1 bidder for procurement of Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) based on its quotation. Sources also said the Dassault India representatives have repeatedly denied meeting with the ministry officials, including Verma.
I think this may be good news for LCA & IAF would be forced to order more LCA.
 
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ezsasa

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May be from now on, as and when we keep hearing more good news on LCA development front we will have more and more bad news on rafale deal front.
 

Lions Of Punjab

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Light Combat Aircraft: Need for course correction I | StratPost

Light Combat Aircraft: Need for course correction I

Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retired) goes back in history to examine the reasons why the Light Combat Aircraft project has failed to meet expectations.

Every major power – and there are just a handful of them – have the capability to aspire to design, develop and manufacture fighter aircraft by themselves. Now, ideally, this would include all critical technologies – aero-engines, aircraft design, metallurgy, radar, sensors and weapons. However, very few countries have mastery and control in all these areas; the early birds or leaders – USA, Russia, UK and France are closely followed by Germany, Japan, Italy and Sweden.

Aspirants after the Second World War included Argentina, Brazil, China, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Israel, Iran, South Korea and Taiwan, of which only a few have emerged as successful late entrants into the aerospace club.

These are Brazil, China, India, Israel and South Korea. While China and Israel lead the pack, all of them have built capabilities and strengths in a few domains but no one has comprehensive mastery of all the relevant technologies.

The most complex challenge involves design and development of aero-engines and aviation grade materials. Except for China to some extent, none of the others have achieved any meaningful control of technology in these two domains. The mastery of aerospace technology will continue to remain a huge challenge for emerging powers like India.

Good beginning but poor follow-up

India's aspiration to build its own fighter aircraft began well with the HF-24 programme. India took the prescient decision to bring in Dr Kurt Tank to head the design team in the fifties, when denial regimes were yet to take shape.

In the aftermath of the Second World War, Dr Kurt Tank had offered his services to Argentina which gladly accepted. By 1948, he had designed the fighter Pulqui II, a state-of-the-art fighter in its time. A prototype was built but its development was cut short by Argentina's political turmoil.

That is when he moved to India and taught at IIT, Madras before he was entrusted in 1957 with the task of designing the HF-24 for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Until then, the only aircraft designed and built by HAL was the basic trainer HT-2. Attempting to develop the HF-24 after the HT-2 was an audacious leap in aspiration.

Dr Kurt Tank was allowed to bring his small team of German engineers who formed the nucleus of the final design strength of 150 HAL engineers by the end of the development. The project was sanctioned in 1957 and the first prototype flew in 1961, a mere four years later and the first squadron of series production aircraft went operational in 1967, only six years later!

Though handicapped by underpowered engines, the HF-24 acquitted itself well in the strike role in the 1971 Indo-Pak war.

The HF-24 was, in its time, a brilliant design and a state-of-the-art aircraft. The programme met an untimely demise in 1982 due to the short-sightedness of the User, Government and the Industry.

The User's leadership displayed singular lack of foresight and national perspective when it decided to phase out the aircraft in 1982, a mere 15 years later. The political leadership and the bureaucracy displayed ignorance and strategic blindness during the course of the HF-24's development and operational life. Decisions on engine development with foreign collaboration were shelved under the pretext of being too expensive, when the cost involved was a mere Rs 5 crores.

The industry failed to follow a strategy of developing improved derivatives in order to sustain the huge leap achieved with the help of Dr Kurt Tank's team.

The net result was withering away of precious talent. The entire 1970s was a lost decade.

HAL shifted its focus to license production of MiG-21s and when the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) decision was taken in 1985, HAL's design capability was at an all time low. It lost the control of the design process and management to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which created the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to manage the LCA programme.

LCA – Genesis and Flawed Decisions

Of late there have been frequent articles written by a few self-proclaimed champions of indigenisation and Tejas patriots. Although they presume a license to comment on how the Indian Air Force (IAF) must learn to fly and fight any war with the Tejas as its backbone and not pursue the MMRCA or FGFA, their views are spectacularly misinformed and reflect their ignorance of aeronautics, air combat and strategy and military aviation. They would do well to study the LCA programme's genesis, development, hurdles, indigenous content and its true performance in order to appreciate its possible role and potential. The following narrative is for their benefit as well.

The Light Combat Aircraft concept was earlier referred to as the Light Weight Fighter (LWF). This concept has been a source of much study and research throughout aviation history to try and achieve performance requirements at affordable cost. This became more feasible in the jet age as downsizing of engines was relatively easier.

The Folland Gnat, which the IAF flew successfully in its 1965 and 1971 wars, was a classic Light Weight Fighter whose performance, in its age, was excellent at minimal cost, although it also brought with it large compromises in safety and reliability.

The MiG 21 has effectively proved to be the most successful Light Weight Fighter since its introduction. The IAF will have operated the MiG-21 for almost six decades if it phases out the last of them by 2020. The focus of the concept of the light weight fighter has always been low cost balanced by acceptable performance.

The genesis of modern Light Weight Fighter development goes back to the late sixties and early seventies, which ultimately resulted in the production of the most efficient Light Weight Fighter of the century, the F-16. The "Fighter Mafia" led by the late John Boyd and his Energy-Manoeuvrability theory laid the foundation for future light weight fighter development.

This radical change in concept became necessary because of the poor performance of technologically advanced, heavily armed, expensive and large aircraft like the F-4 Phantom against the low cost, technologically inferior but much smaller, highly nimble and agile aircraft like the MiG-15 and the MiG-21. A process of competitive prototype development was adopted. At the core of the LWF's design requirement was performance.

The YF-16, which won the prototype competition in 1972, was the first aircraft design to be based on unstable platform and fly-by-wire control system. It was also the first to use composite material for structures. The rest is history.

The prototype programme began in 1971 and the series production F-16 was in operational service by 1978. Fundamentally, the F-16 programme validated the relevance of balancing technology while keeping performance and low cost as the drivers of the programme.

By the late 1970s the IAF was looking for a replacement for its accident- prone and unreliable Gnat and its Indian version, the Ajeet. The requirement was a low-cost, conventional aircraft to replace the Gnat/Ajeet and the early MiG-21 fleet (Fishbed) by the late 1980s.

Based on its experience of the Gnat and the need for a low-cost fighter, the IAF projected the requirement for a small fighter of 5 tonnes empty weight. This would have left the aircraft only marginally larger than the Gnat and even smaller than the MiG-21.

This was a flawed approach and indicated that the Light Weight Fighter concept had not been studied in depth and could have been due to inadequate information at that time.

But that is only partially correct, as HAL did the feasibility study with consultancies from all leading aircraft design houses of Europe.

After the initial feasibility studies the IAF and HAL concurred on the plan for a conventional fixed wing fighter to be developed. The DRDO then stepped in to suggest that the fighter development programme be used to bridge technology gaps – Fly-By-Wire (FBW) control system, airborne radar, aero-engine and composite structures.

By the early 1980s this was agreed to and an ambitious plan to develop a fourth generation platform with high performance was put up to convince the government. The approval was followed up by the formulation of the Air Staff Requirements (ASR) in tune with the performance expected of a fourth generation fighter.

This is where the anomalies in decision-making crept in.

To develop a fourth generation fighter within a 5-ton lightweight airframe was a tall order. And although it was revised upwards to a 6-ton empty weight requirement, even this was difficult to achieve.

The projected time frame of less than a decade for the completion of development and operational induction of the aircraft was not only over-optimistic but also almost foolhardy, given the status of the technical base that existed with respect to FBW, aero-engine and the airborne radar.

Starting from scratch, each of these would have required nothing less than two decades of focused research and foreign assistance.

Ultimately, two of the major technology objectives were not achieved: the Kaveri aero-engine programme floundered even after three decades of work and has now been declared foreclosed, while the airborne radar did not make any headway and was dropped in 2006 in favour of the Israeli Elta-2032 radar.
 
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