ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Rahul Singh]

Well same old story, IAF's cold shoulder.

 

[ajtr]

India develops electronic intelligence tech for surveillance

India has developed a new generation satellite-fitted electronic intelligence system for surveillance applications to keep an eye on hostile neighbours, key defence officials said today.

The system has been developed by Hyderabad-based Defence Electronics and Research Laboratory (DLRL) under the Defence Research and Development Organisation, sources told PTI.

A DRDO source termed a satellite fitted with this system as a "spy satellite". The electronic intelligence system on board a satellite takes images of "resources" of hostile countries as it passes over them from the space, they said.

According to sources, select countries such as the US, France and China are already using such type of system. India also has now designed, integrated and tested such a system.

DRDO is already in discussion with Bangalore-headquartered Indian Space Research Organisation in this regard, and the payload to be flown in one of the low earth observation satellites is expected to be ready by the end of the year.

Meanwhile, Director of Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) U K Revankar said the DRDO lab has developed new electronic warfare system for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas and it would be tested shortly.

Defence scientists are also working on technologies to intercept and jam network of satellite phones. "That project is going on. Within a year, it will be ready," an official said.

India has also developed a "penetration aid" that allows its aircraft to penetrate into enemy territory "without being identified by any of the radars," sources said.

As part of counter-measures against hostile missiles, a consortium comprising of Bharat Electronics Limited, DLRL, DARE and Electronic Corporation of India Limited (ECIL) has been formed to develop systems to divert missiles from various platforms.

"There are a large number of helicopters which require radar warning receivers and also missile approach warning system for helicopters," a defence official said.

is it something like Growler in f-18

 

[s_bman]

India develops electronic intelligence tech for surveillance




is it something like Growler in f-18

i think something like rafale(active cancellation system)

 

[ajtr]

Old news but related to above article.

India, Israel to setup Electronic Warfare Joint Venture

The proposed joint venture, the creation of which would cost around $100 million, is expected to get a go-ahead shortly with a signed deal between India's Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Bangalore and the Elisra Group, Bene Beraq, Israel.

Seventy percent of the venture will be funded by DARE, which is part of the state run Defence Research and Development Organization, with Elisra Group paying the remaining 30 percent.

A senior DARE scientist said the proposed venture will likely get off the ground by the end of 2006 at DARE facilities in Bangalore. Elisra will develop approach warning systems, while DARE will develop cooling systems, electromagnetic interference and electromagnetic susceptibility systems, as well as system integration in the aircraft.

The program is to be fully operational in three years.

Systems for LCA, JSF

The scientist said this venture will see an advanced EW system called 'Mayawi' developed for India's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and the F-35 Joint Strike Fighters that Israel plans to buy from the United States.

The EW system will feature advanced RADAR warning, RADAR jamming, and electronic combat and self defense systems. It will also have an Integrated Defensive Electronic Radio Frequency Countermeasures system to help protect the aircraft against RADAR guided missiles.

Its Advanced Threat Infrared Countermeasures will protect the aircraft against heat seeking missiles, and be paired with Common Missile Warning System.

"We are collaborating with Indian agencies for a number of defence programs, but, as per company policy we do not discuss specific programs", said an Elisra executive. The executive added that DARE was selected as a partner after trying several other defence partners around the world.

A senior Defence Ministry (Indian) official said India wants to forge alliances with Israeli companies to develop a variety of high-end defence technologies as a continuation of the growing Indo-Israel defence cooperation.

Elisra, notably, has helped DARE in the past to develop an EW system, called 'Tempest' for the MiG 21 Bison fighter upgrade program. EW systems from Elisra are also being supplied for licensed production in India for 140 Sukhoi Su 30 MKI aircraft at the HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) production center in Bangalore.

 

[ZOOM]

ZOOM forgive me if i'm rude but i must say wild comparison! In first place T-50 is an AJT or best a CAT hence not even marginally comparable to a fighter jet like HF-XX Tejas. A fighter jet's chemistry is highly complex and require a detailed testing and up gradation to keep it contemporary, same is not in the case of an AJT.

Rahul my Friend, you carry every reason of being rude for my unnecessary camparison of Tejas with Korean T-50. You may have find it exceptionaly unobivious to bring in something like T-50 in comparison with Tejas, especially when both this aircraft are being made for overtly two different purposes. I am not looking to comparing here both this jets rather different level of philosphy shown by the manufacturer of both this jet in Project management. Given Tejas's exceptionally slow test flights and repeated barriers in terms of Engine configuration changes from Kaveri as what was originally envisged to US GE engine for testing purpose and at last looking forward for Eurpoen EJ-200 when we suddenly find that both the formers Kaveri and GE's engine are highly unsuitable for operational purpose either in terms of lack of thrust for GE engine and our alleged inability to bring Kaveri online despite long test history. This test flights further getting delayed by absence of any true radar system even in a conventional form.

Now if we first go nearly 25 years back, when LCA project was first envisged, you will notice that design of Tejas was finalized by keeping in mind threat perception of facing something like Mig-21 types and F-16s which basically used to form core componants of both Chinese and Pak Airforces. But now, when Tejas project is still languishing for various reasons, threat perceptions has seen a generational change and interminant delays has created a deadlier prospect of facing true 4.5th generation jets like Su-30, Su-27, J-10, F-16 Block 52 etc. On the top of that, Tejas will not only face this massive force of all new fighter jets rather it will have to deal with some added features of AESA, TVC engine, true BVR which will accompany the fleet of our arch rivals. Well, I am not here defining obsolence prospect of Tejas as it can accompany above truly outstanding features as I have mentioned above, but moot point is can we make it happen.

Anyway, let me get back to key reason of bringing in comparison with T-50. As if you go through the T-50 Golden Eagle programme of Korea in collabration with US, you will realize that even Koreans had a similar objective as we of desinging, developing and verifiying their own true supersonic jet trainer cum fighter jet to meet the needs of facing 4th generation enemy fleet. Although they commence the program in 1992 exactly the similar timeline we chosen for LCA, but Korean's forced to stall it around 1995 for reasons of financial crises. But they commence it once again in 1998 in collabration with LM, conducted first test flight on 2002 and successfully inducted the same in 2005 and now as we can see, they have a standing fleet of 50 T-50 trainers in operation alongwith A-50(fighter version of same for CAS mission fitted with LM's APG-67 radar in production line. Now this particuler fighter version being derived from trainer version will about to replace older F-4s and F-5s in Korean Airfoce at the same time A-10 bomber. This fleet expansion of replacing older fleet is quite similar to IAF's of replacing its Mig-21s, Mig-27s with LCA. So I can safely conclude that, Korean despite late beginning as compared to us are way ahead of us in meeting their aerospace needs. Heck, their T-50 also catches attention of many foreign airforces looking to replace ageing fleet of trainers and short range light fighter jet and hence Koreans are on their way up to pump their production line for export orders.

Korean T-50 project effectively shown a true workmanship of Koreans in not only meeting obligation of project management as well as deadline but also they seems to be on well recognized path towards establishing their own aerospace industry.

There is a lot we can learn from Korean itself and apply the similar kind of management in Tejas project to make it successful

 

[gogbot]

Now if we first go nearly 25 years back, when LCA project was first envisged, you will notice that design of Tejas was finalized by keeping in mind threat perception of facing something like Mig-21 types and F-16s which basically used to form core componants of both Chinese and Pak Airforces. But now, when Tejas project is still languishing for various reasons, threat perceptions has seen a generational change and interminant delays has created a deadlier prospect of facing true 4.5th generation jets like Su-30, Su-27, J-10, F-16 Block 52 etc. On the top of that, Tejas will not only face this massive force of all new fighter jets rather it will have to deal with some added features of AESA, TVC engine, true BVR which will accompany the fleet of our arch rivals. Well, I am not here defining obsolence prospect of Tejas as it can accompany above truly outstanding features as I have mentioned above, but moot point is can we make it happen.

Rubbish, The obsolescence of the Tejas is a Myth, Part of the reasons for the delays has always been the continually evolving nature of the program.

The Basic design of the aircraft shows no obsolescence, unlike coneperory designs the LCA is designed to have a negative RSS much like the f-16.
All other aspects of the aircraft have been changed over time to meet the IAF's ever changing needs and doctrines.

The Tejas-Mk1 can be compared with the SAAB Griphen in its capabilities, However the underpowered engine has limited its effectiveness somewhat in this comparison

The Tejas-MK2 is hands down as capable if not superior to the Griphen NG.

Just take a peep at the specifications and capabilities of the LCA and Grphen , they share a great deal of similarities.

cite you an example

While the Tejas uses Negative RSS and envisioned to TVC to achieve its High degree of maneuverability and Stability

The Griphen makes use of Negative RSS and Stabilizer Canards to do the same

The manufacturing style of the Tejas itself, makes it unique in the world as no other aircraft manufacturer has even attempted something like that. There are so many things that are note worthy about the Tejas, obbsellesence is not one of them

Anyway, let me get back to key reason of bringing in comparison with T-50. As if you go through the T-50 Golden Eagle programme of Korea in collabration with US, you will realize that even Koreans had a similar objective as we of desinging, developing and verifiying their own true supersonic jet trainer cum fighter jet to meet the needs of facing 4th generation enemy fleet. Although they commence the program in 1992 exactly the similar timeline we chosen for LCA, but Korean's forced to stall it around 1995 for reasons of financial crises. But they commence it once again in 1998 in collabration with LM, conducted first test flight on 2002 and successfully inducted the same in 2005 and now as we can see, they have a standing fleet of 50 T-50 trainers in operation alongwith A-50(fighter version of same for CAS mission fitted with LM's APG-67 radar in production line. Now this particuler fighter version being derived from trainer version will about to replace older F-4s and F-5s in Korean Airfoce at the same time A-10 bomber. This fleet expansion of replacing older fleet is quite similar to IAF's of replacing its Mig-21s, Mig-27s with LCA. So I can safely conclude that, Korean despite late beginning as compared to us are way ahead of us in meeting their aerospace needs. Heck, their T-50 also catches attention of many foreign airforces looking to replace ageing fleet of trainers and short range light fighter jet and hence Koreans are on their way up to pump their production line for export orders.

Korean T-50 project effectively shown a true workmanship of Koreans in not only meeting obligation of project management as well as deadline but also they seems to be on well recognized path towards establishing their own aerospace industry.

There is a lot we can learn from Korean itself and apply the similar kind of management in Tejas project to make it successful

First of Trainer aircraft dont have the vast array of sophisticated equipment that make the research and development of actual fighters. The Hugely more expensive and difficult undertaking that they are

This is what the Koreans have to say when they are attempting to actually develop a fighter aircraft to replace their Largely American Air force

The KF-X program is a early-stage project to develop an indigenous fighter aircraft. The current proposal is to develop an F-16 Block 50 class aircraft with basic stealth capabilities to replace the F-4D/E Phantom II and F-5E/F Tiger II aircraft. South Korea is reportedly seeking technological assistance from Saab, Boeing and Lockheed Martin for the production of the KF-X. A green-light for the project, however, has met with delays, and the project has been deemed economically unviable in a recent study by the Korea Development Institute.

They also have their own problems

In October 2009 a general in the South Korean Air Force was arrested for leaking classified documents to Swedish aviation and defence corporation Saab. The general was to have been given a bribe of several hundred thousands of dollars for copies of a number of secret documents that he had photographed in the South Korean Defence University. Saab officials denied any involvement.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Excellent post ZOOM.

Now i am getting you. If i'm right then you are basically comparing the approach towards the achievement of goal.

T-50-
Point-1 Koreans were on single point agenda and that was get the project done at any cost. LM colebaration shows just that.
Point-2 T-50 today is more American than Korean
Point-3 It is just an AJT and can best be CAT or light fighter like HAWK 200 or L-139. LCA is not in that class.

LCA-
ADA and rest of DRDO was having multi point agenda and those could be following:-
a. Develop an advanced replacement for Mig-21.
b. Develop all avionics and sub-systems required to make this fighter.
c. Living national dream to become self-reliant in fighter jet technology by developing infrastructure, knowledge base etc.

Present status:-
Agenda-a. The HF-XX Tejas MK-1 is much more advanced than Mig-21, acknowledges IAF.
Agenda-b. A simple look around will tell, how much self-relent we are today. Testimony- Each IAF flies with more or less number of DRDO developed avionics and systems.
Agenda-c. Just an example will show where we stand today. DRDO and IAF have officially kicked started NGFA.

Now it is left to you ZOOM to decide what is important and significant.

Don't get me wrong but if i had been in your place, i would have compared Korean T-50 with HJT-36. My take is that HJT-36 would have won hands down as prototype had started flying in just 4 years, HAL did not collaborate with any, most of the systems on-board are Indian.... Had there been no delays in receiving AL-55I engines from Russia, this jet trainer would have been in service by now.

 

[ZOOM]

To Rahul

Rahul once again, you can read my post. You can see that, in any manner I wasn't comparing both this Jets on their Technical merits and Purposes, rather I was trying to tell you the difference between the approch followed by both this nation to which you have given your nod. Even if T-50 and its derivative A-50 are no parallel to Tejas but atleast Korean Govt has made sure that they can absorb them to replace their ageing fleet of F-4s and F-5s at the same time older A-10 alongwith various other the jets if any. This replacement shows that Korean Govt has accuretly design its force structure and accordingly absorb this new jets successfully to meet their demanding needs of defending their airspace. Even if Korean trainer cum fighter derivate has no AESA, TVC and any other fanciful avionics s but atleast they are more then enough to meet the task assigned to their older fighter fleet without any longer worrying about fatigue, ageing airframe at the same time giving them a full liberty of carrying out extensive upgrade if they want so. This form of structural upgradation only shows that Korean Airforce has accepted both this mini trainer cum fighter with both hand, since they knew that it would be far more advisable to have new jets with some reduced capability as compared to their contemprories, but at the same time far more useful then having older fleet.

Now comes to your comparison part(First let's put aside our pride and nationalism for our homegrown project), well I don't want to compare this Korean aircraft with Tejas for apparent reasons, but I don't think IJT-36 can in any manner comes close to T-50 as Korean jet is far more quick because of supersonic engine, Triplete FBW, modern cockpit nearly as good as their own F-16s and as a matter of fact testimony to all this qualities is nothing but increasing level of interest by foriegn airforces including Isreal, Asean countries, some European natin, UAE etc.

No matter how much we feel good about record breaking timeline of bringing IJT into shape, this particuler project as well is nowhere nearer to what T-50 project undertaken by our Korean counterparts. Since even Korean themsleves have put together T-50 including test flight to production line in record time. On the top of that, we still not happier with IJT's engine state of affairs, since few days back itself IAF's top brass was highly angered with more delays in its induction as Russian engine which currently fitted in one of its prototype was found to be leaking fuel. Mate Rahul, no offence, but you yourself conceded IAF's cold shoulering to HAL's proposed project of CAT despite Tejas's presitage.

Regarding Origin of T-50, Rahul put aside our pride and if we give some serious look at Tejas, then we themselves haven't gone mile ahead of Korean in terms of home grown tech. As things stand we themselves despite spending an era are now in the end looking towards Foreign help right from engine, radar and to some extent speeding up the project as far as Boeing's help we some times back supposed to take which was torpedod by US.

Well, I am not looking to outplay by bringing foth pros and cons of T-50 and IJT, but Topline and BottomLine will remain the same in favour of the jet whose maker make it possible to bring their Project planning objective to logical end.

Now let me address rest of your post about DRDO and ADA agenda of giving India with true 4th generation fighter jet and self reliance in mastering associated sub systems and avionics.

There is no doubt, LCA project has given us lots of dividends but its slow cruising towards the target has proving to be equally damaging as its benefits. We Need to ask ourselves with some truly unsettling question to englighten themselves with some incovinent truth. What price are we willing to pay with such interminant delays or should we left our Airspace security at the mercy of aggressor. To what extent we should slog on our obsolate Migs by giving them an demanding task of controlling our airspace and deny IAF pilots the liberty of having all round institutional knowledge of having true 4th generation fighter jet in their fleet. LCA neither coming of age because of delay nor it is letting foriegn jet to joined IAF fleet to fulfill its shortfall which has become a bottom line as far as our slow procurement policy is concerned.

In short, Project Management is like a game of Soccer where goals you make determine the fate, not the heroics you have shown within 90 mintues to make even a single goal to outplay your opponenet, unfortunetly later becomes exactly applicable to Tejas Project.>>>>>>

 

[nitesh]

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/0...+of+Indian+Defence)&utm_content=Google+Reader

Bumped into Commodore CD Balaji who heads the LCA Navy programme. Full update on the programme coming up. Meanwhile enjoy these photos he shared with me.

 

[Sridhar]

One more image from the above link

 

[ajtr]

nice good

 

[Rahul Singh]

Shiv Aroor says, target date is late 2010, but i remember ADA chief saying "We will fly NP-1 by aprill 2010". Is he referring to NP-2(single seater)?

 

[SATISH]

Didnt the Navy tell that it will accept the aircraft only with the higher thrust engine?....

 

[Sridhar]

LCA Navy Targets First Flight This Year




The first prototype of the LCA Navy (NP-1) will be a two-seat trainer variant of the naval fighter, and will be followed by the single-seat NP-2 (of the kind shown in the photos above). I met LCA Navy programme director Cmde CD Balaji (Retd) today at DefExpo and received a full update on the programme. Cmde Balaji says he is aiming for a full power-on of NP-1 in the next three months, a roll out of the aircraft from its final integration facility by mid-2010, and a first flight in the second half of this year.

The front fuselage of NP-1 is identical to the LCA fighter trainer that began flight tests in November last year, and therefore test points for the LCA Navy have already started clocking, according to Cmde Balaji. The only part of the front fuselage that will require a full routine of tests is a small additional control surface near the wing roots in the LCA Navy that isn't there on the air force version. The NP-1 prototype is 80% complete, with some work left on the aircraft's landing gear. The LCA Navy will also have auxiliary air intakes.

Significantly, while EADS has already begun consulting with the LCA air force variant programme, the LCA Navy is still to begin consulting with Lockheed-Martin (which won a bid to consult for the LCA Navy) since protocol clearances from the US government still haven't come through (which, personally stinks of something deeper).

"We are fully capable of completing the exercise on our own. However, we have decided to hire the services of a consultant to optimise our requirements. For example, we need to reconfigure our landing gear for a greater sink rate, etc," Cmde Balaji says.

Photos by Shiv Aroor

 

[Rage]

Didnt the Navy tell that it will accept the aircraft only with the higher thrust engine?....

Evidently, the ADA-agency directeur himself proposed a "new, more powerful engine" once structural strength evaluations were over to equip the aircraft for carrier operations.

Quoting:

"We will fly the Naval LCA with the current GE-404 engine to test its flight characteristics, and whether its structural strength is sufficient for aircraft carrier operations. After the LCA is fitted with a new, more powerful engine we will take the next step of operating from an aircraft carrier," says ADA director P S Subramaniam.

http://kuku.sawf.org/News/60212.aspx

 

[Rage]

Only thing which is bothering me is MMR's integration. Hope this summer PV-3 flies and MMR gets certified by september.

hopefully this month -

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/national/finally-iaf-will-fly-‘made-india’-fighter-194

First off though, have compatibility issues between the radar and the advanced signal processor module been resolved?

The MMR looks very good in theory, but ain't that the story of our lives? I mean: an an X-band, pulse Doppler radar, with two-plane monopulse signals, low side lobe levels, BITE and GUARD channels and integrated IFF is impressive. But getting there has been difficult for HAL and the LRDE, especially when they decided to go all-indigenous and stumbled on cost-overruns in 2005.

 

[Rahul Singh]

MMR is fully developed and tested on a IAI 707 testbed. All that is left as per some reports is integration with HF-XX Tejas computer. Here can be some problems as new MMR is a hybrid of LRDE MMR and ELTA-2032.

 

[nirmal]

Any latest informations available on high altitude tests of Kaveri Engine in Russia?Has it already been fitted to flying test beds?

 

[Sridhar]

LCA updates

http://www.ezinemart.com/force/15022010/pdf/page13.pdf

 

[nirmal]

Sridhar, I was actually enquiring about Kaveri high altitude test updates