ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[halloweene]

I know all the shit about DDMs here and those butt hurt articles on vayu. When I have time in my hand I will compile all of them in a single post and have a blast.

Meanwhile in your hard earned mandarin learning breaks you can compile all the DRDO planted sob stories and rebut them.

At least you could stay polite, or ask for some explanations in PM before criticizing. I may have some for example about DDM NG, parts of the article were deleted on MBDA request.
I don't think i ever insulted you, neither did i criticize LCA program, did i?
Yes i'm a Rafale "Fan-Boy", i never hided it. But i try to give accurate info, even if time to time i can be wrong (and accept it)...

 

[p2prada]

Secondly I would like to pose a question to all the naysayers :-- Please tell me why does IAF act like a reticent child when something MAJOR like repeated engine failures & display blank outs on front line MKI's happen. They go sniveling and begging to OEM's but act like step mothers to world class domestic product like the Arjuns?? The T-90 is night blind and hot as hell but the Generals would rather bake their soldiers and put them in line of fire but not persist with a domestic product.

Let's say you buy two dressed, one from a foreign store and another from a domestic store. You wear the foreign dress and go out, you use it for a few days and eventually the dress gets a small tear. But, you say, "No problem, I will take it to the store and they will fix it at no cost." This was the MKIs problem.

Another day you take out the domestic dress which looks as good as the foreign one, but it is made of poor quality and in your first wash it shrinks down to nothing. You will have to throw it away. That's the domestic dress.

This is the problem between the two. The MKIs engine problem has affected a handful of jets, not all. The blackout issue affected only one particular squadron and has since been fixed. And the T-90's issue has existed for long before the T-90 existed. Heating issues were always there and tank crews would always fight in those conditions. The T-90 having a heating issue is as good as cars having round tires. The AC is required for both tanks, not just T-90. That's why even Arjun is getting an AC. The idea is to increase the working time and longevity of the electronics inside. It's like you buy a high end computer and put it in an AC room or a normal room. It only makes a difference in the long run because the AC will keep the environment cold and dust free. Otherwise you can still use the computer in the normal room. Since the military is paying a lot for the electronics, it is obvious they want to take care of it.

The army wanted DRDO to build them the AC, which the Russians objected, and rightly so. But the Russians failed to develop an AC in time and their attempts to build an AC for our environment failed. We negotiated and the Russians relented, and now DRDO will fit an AC onto the T-90 when it comes for upgrades.

The T-90's Catherine failures were only restricted to Catherine, a French system. In 2005, Arjun's rangefinder also failed in the heat and that rangefinder was also French. Since then both systems have been tropicalized. What's more important is that the Russians replaced all the systems at no cost because the T-90 was still under the three year warranty. The army wants AC not to use the tanks in hot weather, but to increase the life of the electronics, including the imager.

Apart from that, like the dress with a small tear, the foreign systems also have what we call teething issues. Issues that plague a system when it is introduced in a specific environment. Such issues are discovered during operational deployment. Even Arjun has faced a lot of teething issues since its deployment in 2007. Just that the army doesn't bother to make either of them public. We know about Catherine because it was a big ticket deal and media always likes sensational stories. Nobody was interested in the Arjun's issue because only one or two tanks were affected, and were just prototypes. A loss of Rs 1 Crore is not big news compared to the loss of hundreds of crores (which the Russians paid for). We know about it because it was recorded in the Parliament and that's how it became public.

In 2008, during long run trials, where Arjuns had to travel 1000 Km, the Arjun faced repeated failure of the engine and it was replaced 4 times. This type of an issue is unacceptable, just like that dress shrinking. OTOH, in Saudi Arabia, which is a much hotter environment than India, the T-90 managed a 1500 Km run without a single engine change. The Russians were so confident that they did not even bring a spare engine for the test. This is the type of guarantee that the Russians bring to the army. Our domestic industry is still not at that level today.

Also the reason why Arjun was never accepted was because of many reasons. One, the Pakistanis bought the T-80 which was easily a generation ahead compared to Arjun at the time. The T-90 was the only other tank available to us with equivalent electronics. The Arjun still had analog instruments while the T-90 and T-80 were fully digital. The T-90 came very cheap too. Just $2-3 Million per tank. Second, Arjun was sanctioned. A lot of the modifications to the Arjun required German help with the engine and transmission system. We were still under sanctions from Pokhran tests and were only lifted in 2003. It was only after that that the Arjun had a future for itself. Otherwise, when the army made the decision to go for T-90, the Arjun did not have a future at all. Even after all that, Arjun cleared tests only in 2008 and 2010.

So, you tell me if the T-90s issues are more chronic or Arjun's.

You won't find the LCA any different either. LCA was also sanctioned. It had no future without Kaveri, which everybody knew by 1999 that it failed, and the decision to go for a new engine was still in question because the Americans still had to lift sanctions. By 2004, LCA had become overweight. And after LCA started flying and the sanctions were lifted, ADA realized that they had underestimated the work involved. They switched their initial delivery in 5 years to 9 years. So, the dates moved from 2006 to 2008-09. Even after that you already know that IOC was only achieved in 2014, that's a full 5 year delay, or 8 years if you consider the original date. The actual RFP called for a less sophisticated aircraft by 1999. A lot of IAF officials were put off by the unending saga of flight tests. With the introduction of the J-10, the IAF realized that LCA won't be able to keep up even with regular updates. Even after all this, it is still receiving support from the IAF like any other project is. The IAF has been involved with LCA since the very beginning, like assigning Air Marshal Rajkumar to setup the NFTC for ADA in 1994. The nonsense you see in the media, about lack of IAF support, is just that, nonsense.

Naturally, depending on capability and need the IAF will prioritize other projects ahead of the LCA. The Pilatus BTA was of higher priority than the LCA, so was the MKI and so is the Rafale. Rafale is already ready for manufacture. Some reports indicated the Rafale for IAF has already begun construction in France, ready to be delivered in two years. The IJT has already become another high priority project today, more than LCA. Strategic projects like FGFA automatically get the highest priority. That doesn't mean LCA is getting a step-motherly treatment. It's just that the timeline of development and induction is different for different projects and priorities change depending on how the environment changes.

 

[p2prada]

At least you could stay polite, or ask for some explanations in PM before criticizing. I may have some for example about DDM NG, parts of the article were deleted on MBDA request.
I don't think i ever insulted you, neither did i criticize LCA program, did i?
Yes i'm a Rafale "Fan-Boy", i never hided it. But i try to give accurate info, even if time to time i can be wrong (and accept it)...

I think he's referring to the term Desi Dork Media. I don't read his posts but I have the feeling he is referring to me.

 

[Punya Pratap]

I under your point of view but in your own terminology if we keep buying western clothes and never the Indian clothes we shall find ourselves naked one fine day when we are sanctioned. Let me further your own argument, Arvind Mills was the supplier for the Levis and other fancy Jeans manufactured under western brands until India realised that its just the branding other wise we too can make equivalent products.

I hate to say it but if IAF was supporting Tejas by sending in AM Rajkumar than they were the ones who constantly shifted goal posts. I wish everyone of us will take a lesson from JSF development and realise that even the best run into trouble but you have to carry forward. Progress is a work in progress and not something imported..... we all need to find a starting point and I dont wish for a repeat story of Maruts where we rue our lost movement.

I suggest you read up "Story of Israel" to understand how a tiny nation which fought with rudimentary domestic weapons relied on skill and training on the domestic equipment to become a major exporter of weapons... For crying out loud they even used school buses to ferry troops and yet beat the hell out of everyone in the Yom Kippur war! If we want to have pretense of becoming a powerful nation than we have to start some where and Tejas and Arjun are as good as a step than any.

 

[p2prada]

I under your point of view but in your own terminology if we keep buying western clothes and never the Indian clothes we shall find ourselves naked one fine day when we are sanctioned.

The issue being indigenous manufacture. We manufacture the equipment indigenously, so there is no threat of sanctions. That's the case with MKI and Rafale today. T-90 is 85% indigenous, the aspects which are not indigenous can be sanctioned but we can always find other suppliers, like the thermal imagers from Israel or an Indian company instead of French.

Point is the foreign stuff is made in India, making it sanction-free.

Let me further your own argument, Arvind Mills was the supplier for the Levis and other fancy Jeans manufactured under western brands until India realised that its just the branding other wise we too can make equivalent products.

Except that this takes decades to happen when it comes to military products. And that's what is happening today. DRDO is modernizing and the private sector is ramping up operations. In a decade or two, you will see major differences than what you see today.

I hate to say it but if IAF was supporting Tejas by sending in AM Rajkumar than they were the ones who constantly shifted goal posts.

If you have followed LCA development, it was not IAF but ADA that shifted goal posts. IAF never asked for a digital fly by wire system, they never asked for unstable aircraft, they never asked for a multimode radar. All of these were ADA's decision to expand the program. The IAF wanted a very simple aircraft with analog FCS and hydraulics and a simple radar like the one present on the Mirage-2000. It was supposed to be less advanced than even the JF-17. It was supposed to have been inducted in 1999. Successive models after that would have seen major changes like we see within the Russian aircraft industry. Mig-29A is also a very simple analog aircraft with mechanical hydraulics, and a stable design. Today, it is something entirely different.

The decision to switch electronics to more modern ones is not a big deal. ADA is doing a second round of changing avionics and cockpit by themselves. This has nothing to do with the IAF, it is just part of the program. According to ADA, electronics become obsolete every 5-7 years. The last time LCA received an avionics update was in 2007. The next one is this year and is meant for Mk1.

The IAF's Mk2 requirement changes are for a new model. So, this shouldn't affect the delivery of the Mk1. Or would you like the Mk2 with the old Mk1 electronics? Not logical, is it? Since IAF wants a better aircraft, blame the IAF. Here people think LCA Mk2 will be as good as Rafale. OTOH, they don't want requirement changes, even if the requirement changes are very minimal.

So ADA should deliver a Rafale equivalent LCA without allowing requirement changes. And out comes the rabbit.

I suggest you read up "Story of Israel" to understand how a tiny nation which fought with rudimentary domestic weapons relied on skill and training on the domestic equipment to become a major exporter of weapons... For crying out loud they even used school buses to ferry troops and yet beat the hell out of everyone in the Yom Kippur war! If we want to have pretense of becoming a powerful nation than we have to start some where and Tejas and Arjun are as good as a step than any.

Can you show me which fighter jet in IDF is indigenous?

Those rudimentary weapons were still a generation ahead compared to what the enemy used. Give the Arabs Mig-29s and the Israelis F-22s and F-35s, who do you think is going to win? They used foreign weapons to beat their enemy, not Israeli weapons. It was their air superiority that has won them all their wars and all their aircraft are direct imports.

Btw, the Merkava has never seen maneuver warfare to date. They used imported weapons to win all their major wars. Today there is no way to say how well the Merkava would have done in an actual war against modern Soviet weapons of the time. For all you know, they would have been complete tincans. OTOH, we are at the risk of war within 5-10 years. Switching to Arjuns so early in its development is a very high risk maneuver, unlike Merkava which took 30 years to develop into a very good tank.

As far as transportation is concerned, the USAF chartered regular airways to transfer troops to Iraq. If we ever get involved in an urban conflict with a powerful adversary, you will see even the Indian Army using abandoned buses and trucks.

Arjun and LCA are good first steps, no doubt about it. But our adversary is better than we are. The Pakistani army is currently better equipped than the Indian Army. The PLA is already better equipped and their air force is going through a sea change in modernization. So, when you compare the Israelis to us, switch positions and they will get fuked all over in one night. Regardless of their expertise in warfare, all they have done is fight large numbers. If they ever get into it with an equally capable enemy with larger numbers, then they won't last. The army doesn't have the kind of time or the backup to wait for DRDO to develop weapons like the Israelis did. The Israelis managed to develop their MiC with massive US funds and support. We don't have that luxury. So let's not compare ourselves to the Israelis. While their situation seems dire, India sees much greater military threats.

So what I mean is just that. Arjun and LCA are good first steps, but one is 10 years too late and the other is not yet ready. So you can't blame the forces for DRDO's delays.

 

[Ripples]

MODES PLEASE REMOVE THIS POST FROM THIS THREAT SINCE IT IS WRONGLY PLACED
What the hell is going on guys. I just fail to understand why so much commotion over this rafale vs Lca ? Never expected this forum to stoop to this level of ignorance. Even iff LCA mk II fructifies well ahead in time even then what LCA has gotta do with Rafales ? Being pro indigenisation does not mean being stupid. Since I cant make a car i will rather use an indigenous Tv !!! Is that the kind of reasoning that we need? Pathetic to see that pakistani forums are no longer so very different from an Indian one. For every air threat pakistani answer is a more and more upgraded and some fictitious MK 1000 version of jf 17. Similarly to replace everything India now seem to have Tejas MK 5000.
From previous one week I am getting utter frustrated and bored by following this thread and so I will try to point out a few things those have already been iterated several times but may not be in a most coherent and precise manner.

1. Before I begin let me confess that i am neither a DRDO / HAL fanboy nor I have any special thing for IAF. All that I like to follow is evidence and the logical deductions based on that.

2. Just like any other design, the design of Tejas has it's inherent structural limits. These limits not only restrict the scope for future up gradations they also mark a final line for any scaled up bigger dimension version of Tejas. For those who do not understand technicalities well enough let me explain a bit more. Ants are known to carry weight several times more than it's own weight but when we look at animal world how many large species can we spot which can do something close to that ? none. This is because world and its restrictions are not linear. In simple terms, more often than not a doubly harder task may not be accomplished just by doubling the effort !!! Laws of nature often do not follow "unitary method" . So who ever thinks that in future a much larger version of Tejas can be built are entirely wrong. There may be some big Tejas Mk X,Y,Z but the similarity will only be namesake and will be an entirely new fighter by its own right . At present, under no circumstances , Tejas is or will ever be a fighter such as refale. But this certainly does not imply that many critical technologies of Tejas can not be extrapolated towards the making of a new fighter which can very well be as capable as Rafale or may be more. The concept of Tejas was to replace mig 21/mig 27/jaguar and not just mig 21. That is why Tejas design has significant multirole traits. So only way we can be real is by sticking to the original plan.

3. The need for MMRCA, as we see today has undergone several paradigm shifts in the past decade and a half. A need that was initially recognised to address the replacement of mig 21 is no longer the same anymore. Even though many defence officials keep harping about the shortfall of squadron numbers and the urgent need for MMRCA the real reason is not just to ramp up the jet count.

4. At present, the importance of MMRCA lies in offering IAF a true 4.5 gen fighter which can keep IAF well ahead of anything that china can develop in the foreseeable future (under this category of 4.5 gen) and if we were to believe the evaluations that took place around the world then there could be nothing as suitable as Rafale for the job.

5. Up to this point MMRCA and the rise of Rafale seems all good and tidy but things starts to get complex very fast as soon as we factor in the advent of 5th gen fighter jets. The 5th generation fighter technology will mark a unprecedented jump in over all combat effectiveness and this gap can never be narrowed down significantly with any amount of deep up gradation of a 4.5 gen fighter. Generational gap has never been so distinct !!! Very high degree of stealth of the aggressor will blunt an otherwise much more potent defender with higher range and weapon load. Such differences never existed between 3rd and 4th gen fighters. Therefore after having delayed the MMRCA by years we have allowed the very reason behind the requirement to become pointless. With Chinese J 20 already in advanced stage of development the focus should be entirely upon the 5 th gen which can automatically take care of every other previous generation fighters. This is where Rafale start to loose its significance from Indian POV unless someone is ready to endorse the insider news of Mr. BARBORA who somehow knows that "China is not as strong as people like to believe they are "

6. While discussing military matters we often go hyper and start loosing the sight on most practical constraints lying before such as money. In StratPost it was repeatedly stated that IAF simply does not have the kind of money to cater three highly expensive medium to heavy class jets in the form of Rafale,SU 30 mki and FGFA that too in big numbers as envisaged. Then what do we do to counter Chinese Stealth fighters? Having unreasonable dream requirements/plans and delaying the induction by years up to decades just to some how arrange cash from some where can not be said to be a great way to go about it . When we look around this is what is happening with every major deal of Indian armed forces. We believe or not we just don't have money.

7. So will it not be a better idea to save this billion 20$ and invest it towards acquiring 5th gen technology rather than purchasing something which is already in the process of obsolescence from Indian POV or producing LCA which is just not in the same niche ? Unless we all are completely wrong here and Rafale is just a 5th gen fighter in disguise or Mr.Barbora is assessing the chinese capability correctly the most logical spending of money should be to invest heavily to develop selective indigenous capability and rest for the FGFA. Indigenisation achieved in avionics , ( jet engine , which will be a very very hard & lengthy goal to achieve but we must begin right now) A2A A2G weapons such as BVRAAM , PGM etc. Challenge will not just be making them but making them light and accurate. To achieve this goal we will also need substantial investment in metallurgy and nanotechnology. Rather rather keeping our fingers into every damn thing and then goofing up every where it is better to master the tech involving the weapons where as Russian FGFA will provide IAF with a platform that can carry those weapon. This work at the top will trickle down and shower the fighter jets at the lower echelon with an enormous scope for in house top class up gradation. India needs at least 25 years to produce a 5 th gen fighter completely on her own. So rather that wasting precious time and money on mismanaged projects and making tall claims it is better to finish what we have already began and made some progress. Avionics is certainly one such very promising fields.

 

[Anoop Sajwan]

The issue being indigenous manufacture. We manufacture the equipment indigenously, so there is no threat of sanctions. That's the case with MKI and Rafale today. T-90 is 85% indigenous, the aspects which are not indigenous can be sanctioned but we can always find other suppliers, like the thermal imagers from Israel or an Indian company instead of French.

Point is the foreign stuff is made in India, making it sanction-free.

Except that this takes decades to happen when it comes to military products. And that's what is happening today. DRDO is modernizing and the private sector is ramping up operations. In a decade or two, you will see major differences than what you see today.

Your point is valid in one way. Why Indian Military prefer because they are simply world class and available in time. But on other side of coin you have to see the negative points of foreign weapons. Give money and take things..... Weapon deals just doesnt signed like that. Although exporting countries wants buyers for their systems. But importing countries have to loss a great part in the process. Exporter uses these kinds of deals for strategic as well as economical leverage besides demanding money with huge profit (profit could be more than 100%). Although I am not against importing top-notch weapons but ignorance towards indigenous weapons should be ended. There are too many examples even in Indian history.

If you have followed LCA development, it was not IAF but ADA that shifted goal posts. IAF never asked for a digital fly by wire system, they never asked for unstable aircraft, they never asked for a multimode radar. All of these were ADA's decision to expand the program. The IAF wanted a very simple aircraft with analog FCS and hydraulics and a simple radar like the one present on the Mirage-2000. It was supposed to be less advanced than even the JF-17. It was supposed to have been inducted in 1999. Successive models after that would have seen major changes like we see within the Russian aircraft industry. Mig-29A is also a very simple analog aircraft with mechanical hydraulics, and a stable design. Today, it is something entirely different.
The decision to switch electronics to more modern ones is not a big deal. ADA is doing a second round of changing avionics and cockpit by themselves. This has nothing to do with the IAF, it is just part of the program. According to ADA, electronics become obsolete every 5-7 years. The last time LCA received an avionics update was in 2007. The next one is this year and is meant for Mk1.
The IAF's Mk2 requirement changes are for a new model. So, this shouldn't affect the delivery of the Mk1. Or would you like the Mk2 with the old Mk1 electronics? Not logical, is it? Since IAF wants a better aircraft, blame the IAF. Here people think LCA Mk2 will be as good as Rafale. OTOH, they don't want requirement changes, even if the requirement changes are very minimal.
So ADA should deliver a Rafale equivalent LCA without allowing requirement changes. And out comes the rabbit.

??????????
We should thanks to ADA that they develop more advanced sub-systems for Tejus. ADA put the high aim, because they can. Although they failed in few but that doesnt mean that cannot be trusted. Backdraw of the project was that we doesnt put plan B. But that was right on that time. We want 100% Indian fighter without any foreign sanctions.
Although rafale is great deal but why we are wasting money on jagaur, migs and miraj. We can use that fund to strengthen Rafale and LCA.

 

[ersakthivel]

At least you could stay polite, or ask for some explanations in PM before criticizing. I may have some for example about DDM NG, parts of the article were deleted on MBDA request.
I don't think i ever insulted you, neither did i criticize LCA program, did i?
Yes i'm a Rafale "Fan-Boy", i never hided it. But i try to give accurate info, even if time to time i can be wrong (and accept it)...

That was not directed at you. You are mistaking my reply to some one else as an attack on yourself.

 

[ersakthivel]

Your point is valid in one way. Why Indian Military prefer because they are simply world class and available in time. But on other side of coin you have to see the negative points of foreign weapons. Give money and take things..... Weapon deals just doesnt signed like that. Although exporting countries wants buyers for their systems. But importing countries have to loss a great part in the process. Exporter uses these kinds of deals for strategic as well as economical leverage besides demanding money with huge profit (profit could be more than 100%). Although I am not against importing top-notch weapons but ignorance towards indigenous weapons should be ended. There are too many examples even in Indian history.
[MENTION]MENTION]


??????????
We should thanks to ADA that they develop more advanced sub-systems for Tejus. ADA put the high aim, because they can. Although they failed in few but that doesnt mean that cannot be trusted. Backdraw of the project was that we doesnt put plan B. But that was right on that time. We want 100% Indian fighter without any foreign sanctions.
Although rafale is great deal but why we are wasting money on jagaur, migs and miraj. We can use that fund to strengthen Rafale and LCA.

There are very few world class systems in indian armed forces. all need major fixing up. Most of them obsolete. And issues with them leak out to public only during the most critical time when it becomes inevitable.

if you take the whole airforces of IAF, PAF and PLAF there is no single operational fighter that has all the following techs that are present on tejas, namely,
1. RSS air frame with 4 channel digital fly by wire,
2. full composite outer skin and higher composite percentage,
3. 0.3 sq meter RCS in clean config,
4.low wing loading enabling better suitability in high Himalayan airspace and high altitude airbases,
5. reliable engine tech.

Tejas combines all these techs(not present as a whole set even on a couple of MMRCA contenders!!!)

To call it as an effort at sub system development exposes your abominable lack of knowledge on some thing called Integrated system development!!!!!

All the IAF knows how pervasive the Flanker engine problem is,

All the army knows IA asking for AC on T-90 is not to upgrade the crew comfort to deluxe luxury level, but to avoid crew fainting Electronics malfunctioning in the glorified T-72 called T-90(which is not ordered enmasse by Russians themselves!!!!, So no hope for a solution.)None of the above mentioned problems prevalent on T-90 is there in Arjun.

You are repeating the same old stale stuff may be for the hundredth time here.

The kind of glorified monkey wrench tejas IAF wanted is what is flying in PAF as JF-17(butt of jokes). ADA guys would better hang themselves than delivering such shitty product envisaged not by airwar experts but retiring Mig-21 drivers of IAF, because the whole world will laugh at R&D guys building obsolete stuff.

Even reinventing a wheel has a purpose, but building a glorified MIg is the most stupid thing to do after the age of RSS digital fly by wire, low wing loading , High ITR Mirage 2000 age has dawned.

Thanks to the sagacity of the guys IAF has a working product in its hand .

This whole MMRCA circus is known for what it is by A.K. Antony &Co.

That's why every time some one whined on the delays of MMRCA they simply ordered a few more SU-30 MKIs as told in stratpost conference. There is nothing wrong with that. SU-30(to be upgradd to Super Sukhoi with brahmos can do damn more than any MMRCA contenders at half the cost.)

Regarding "there is no plan B if rafale is not there for IAF" sob stories,

Airforces flying TYPHOON wont yearn for rafale,

Airforces flying super hornets and F-16 ltest blks too can do without rafale(they are saving their money for more useful things in life like 5th gen fighters).

The airforces flying Su-30s wont yearn for rafale (like Russian, malaysiyan and Indonesian airforces along with many other air forces of the world)

Airforces flying Gripen E too wont miss rafale. SO IAF which has the option of tejas mk2 which is closer to NG has no reason to miss the holding hand of rafale, especially as it will be having brahmos equipped SU-30 MKis and super sukhoi upgrades lined up for its 272 odd SU-30 MKIs.

 

[ersakthivel]

MODES PLEASE REMOVE THIS POST FROM THIS THREAT SINCE IT IS WRONGLY PLACED
What the hell is going on guys. I just fail to understand why so much commotion over this rafale vs Lca ? Never expected this forum to stoop to this level of ignorance. Even iff LCA mk II fructifies well ahead in time even then what LCA has gotta do with Rafales ? Being pro indigenisation does not mean being stupid. Since I cant make a car i will rather use an indigenous Tv !!! Is that the kind of reasoning that we need? Pathetic to see that pakistani forums are no longer so very different from an Indian one. For every air threat pakistani answer is a more and more upgraded and some fictitious MK 1000 version of jf 17. Similarly to replace everything India now seem to have Tejas MK 5000.

because rafale is eating into tejas numbers and a huge costly waste of resources in the 5th gen era. Tvs and cars!?!?

From previous one week I am getting utter frustrated and bored by following this thread and so I will try to point out a few things those have already been iterated several times but may not be in a most coherent and precise manner.

You are "reiterating the same points that are reiterated with sickening frequency by all the DDM folks and a few glorified technocrats here."

1. Before I begin let me confess that i am neither a DRDO / HAL fanboy nor I have any special thing for IAF. All that I like to follow is evidence and the logical deductions based on that.

2. Just like any other design, the design of Tejas has it's inherent structural limits. These limits not only restrict the scope for future up gradations they also mark a final line for any scaled up bigger dimension version of Tejas. For those who do not understand technicalities well enough let me explain a bit more. Ants are known to carry weight several times more than it's own weight but when we look at animal world how many large species can we spot which can do something close to that ? none.

Then how come the gripen E ant gets to repeat 75 percent of rangeand load performance of SU-30 MKi?
Then how come rabbit sized rafale does more than horse sized F-15 eagle according to its specs?
Structural limits are there only for tejas mk2 and not for rafale and gripen?

This is because world and its restrictions are not linear. In simple terms, more often than not a doubly harder task may not be accomplished just by doubling the effort !!! Laws of nature often do not follow "unitary method" . So who ever thinks that in future a much larger version of Tejas can be built are entirely wrong.

Hi, Hi, Hi, the are not wrong. Empathically right, since future or present in design tejas mk2 will come close to gripen E and IA has a lorry load of flankers we don't need the belying structural limit 4.5th gen rafale at nearly the cost of 5th gen stealths that were designed with all the techs that are two decades younger than rafale design date.

There may be some big Tejas Mk X,Y,Z but the similarity will only be namesake and will be an entirely new fighter by its own right . At present, under no circumstances , Tejas is or will ever be a fighter such as refale.

Tejas will never need to be a fighter like Rafale. Good for it if it reaches Gripen e class. IAF has enough flankers to cater to the ned. And increasing Tejas mk2 numbers to 300 plus and going for a fleet wide above F-16 Blk 52 category with much lower running cost we are creating a vertical niche with just 126 rafales at twice the cost, whose job overlaps on that of Su-30 MKi in every sphere.

But this certainly does not imply that many critical technologies of Tejas can not be extrapolated towards the making of a new fighter which can very well be as capable as Rafale or may be more. The concept of Tejas was to replace mig 21/mig 27/jaguar and not just mig 21. That is why Tejas design has significant multirole traits. So only way we can be real is by sticking to the original plan.

The concept of Tejas was to replace mig 21/mig 27/jaguar with a true multi role 4.5th gen fighter like rafale or typhoon or gripen E.
besides extrapolating the critical techs built for tejas mk2 to other fighters(it is already deployed in IAF flanker fleet!!!) we can build 300 tejas at much lower cost and invest the billions in in true 5th gen tech like every one else is doing.

3. The need for MMRCA, as we see today has undergone several paradigm shifts in the past decade and a half. A need that was initially recognised to address the replacement of mig 21 is no longer the same anymore. Even though many defence officials keep harping about the shortfall of squadron numbers and the urgent need for MMRCA the real reason is not just to ramp up the jet count.

The need????????? What need???
It was a straight 126 mirage-2000 buy gone mad.

4. At present, the importance of MMRCA lies in offering IAF a true 4.5 gen fighter which can keep IAF well ahead of anything that china can develop in the foreseeable future (under this category of 4.5 gen) and if we were to believe the evaluations that took place around the world then there could be nothing as suitable as Rafale for the job.

No. rafale break the bank as far as IAf budget is concerned and it will be curtains for robust indigenous mil aviation industry with any hope of private sector jumping in , as this mythical vastu compliant 120 numbers for tejas(an entirely new platform) .

5. Up to this point MMRCA and the rise of Rafale seems all good and tidy but things starts to get complex very fast as soon as we factor in the advent of 5th gen fighter jets. The 5th generation fighter technology will mark a unprecedented jump in over all combat effectiveness and this gap can never be narrowed down significantly with any amount of deep up gradation of a 4.5 gen fighter.

Who told you that? before making J-1 and J-20 what 4.5th gen fighter was made by PLAF?Tejas is for all practical purpose has every tech that can be present on any4.5th gen fighter.

Generational gap has never been so distinct !!! Very high degree of stealth of the aggressor will blunt an otherwise much more potent defender with higher range and weapon load. Such differences never existed between 3rd and 4th gen fighters. Therefore after having delayed the MMRCA by years we have allowed the very reason behind the requirement to become pointless.

Delayed MMRCA is an irrelevant MMRCA in the age where airforces of the world are spending huge on 5th gen, We are spending huge on 4.5th gen tech rafale designed in the seventies.

With Chinese J 20 already in advanced stage of development the focus should be entirely upon the 5 th gen which can automatically take care of every other previous generation fighters. This is where Rafale start to loose its significance from Indian POV unless someone is ready to endorse the insider news of Mr. BARBORA who somehow knows that "China is not as strong as people like to believe they are "

6. While discussing military matters we often go hyper and start loosing the sight on most practical constraints lying before such as money. In StratPost it was repeatedly stated that IAF simply does not have the kind of money to cater three highly expensive medium to heavy class jets in the form of Rafale,SU 30 mki and FGFA that too in big numbers as envisaged. Then what do we do to counter Chinese Stealth fighters? Having unreasonable dream .

make 300 plu cost effective robust tejas mk2s to shore up our airdefence. 126 costly fighters wont give the same air defence capacity as that of 300 plus cost effective fighters with equivalent tech in all respects.

requirements/plans and delaying the induction by years up to decades just to some how arrange cash from some where can not be said to be a great way to go about it . When we look around this is what is happening with every major deal of Indian armed forces. We believe or not we just don't have money.

7. So will it not be a better idea to save this billion 20$ and invest it towards acquiring 5th gen technology rather than purchasing something which is already in the process of obsolescence from Indian POV or producing LCA which is just not in the same niche ?

Rafale is a decade older in design than tejas mk2. So which is obsolete?

Unless we all are completely wrong here and Rafale is just a 5th gen fighter in disguise or Mr.Barbora is assessing the chinese capability correctly the most logical spending of money should be to invest heavily to develop selective indigenous capability and rest for the FGFA. Indigenisation achieved in avionics , ( jet engine , which will be a very very hard & lengthy goal to achieve but we must begin right now) A2A A2G weapons such as BVRAAM , PGM etc. Challenge will not just be making them but making them light and accurate. To achieve this goal we will also need substantial investment in metallurgy and nanotechnology. Rather rather keeping our fingers into every damn thing and then goofing up every where it is better to master the tech involving the weapons where as Russian FGFA will provide IAF with a platform that can carry those weapon. This work at the top will trickle down and shower the fighter jets at the lower echelon with an enormous scope for in house top class up gradation. India needs at least 25 years to produce a 5 th gen fighter completely on her own. So rather that wasting precious time and money on mismanaged projects and making tall claims it is better to finish what we have already began and made some progress. Avionics is certainly one such very promising fields.

care to be better informed.

 

[p2prada]

Your point is valid in one way. Why Indian Military prefer because they are simply world class and available in time. But on other side of coin you have to see the negative points of foreign weapons. Give money and take things..... Weapon deals just doesnt signed like that. Although exporting countries wants buyers for their systems. But importing countries have to loss a great part in the process. Exporter uses these kinds of deals for strategic as well as economical leverage besides demanding money with huge profit (profit could be more than 100%). Although I am not against importing top-notch weapons but ignorance towards indigenous weapons should be ended. There are too many examples even in Indian history.

Rafale deal won't see significant profit margins for anybody. It should be less than 10%. Only certain unique govt to govt deals end up with such profit margins and are extremely rare.

We should thanks to ADA that they develop more advanced sub-systems for Tejus. ADA put the high aim, because they can. Although they failed in few but that doesnt mean that cannot be trusted. Backdraw of the project was that we doesnt put plan B. But that was right on that time. We want 100% Indian fighter without any foreign sanctions.

ADA set the bar high because they didn't know what they were doing at the time. They haven't delivered. If you don't know yet, LCA Mk2 is still in the drawing board. They are yet to start making the first prototype.

How is LCA with General Electric's engines indigenous? Or are you talking about some future project which will be ITAR free, like AMCA?

Although rafale is great deal but why we are wasting money on jagaur, migs and miraj. We can use that fund to strengthen Rafale and LCA.

The aircraft have a lot of life in them. It is not a waste of money.

I need to inform you about something and this goes to @Ripples as well. After LCA is inducted it will continue undergoing tests for another 5-10 years until it achieves systems maturity. Normally systems maturity is achieved after 100,000 hours. For an aircraft like LCA that's roughly 30 years with just one squadron, 15 years with two and so on. With more numbers inducted the aircraft will achieve systems maturity faster.

With just a handful of aircraft, PAF took 25 years to achieve 100,000 hours for their F-16s. But this doesn't count as systems maturity since the aircraft itself has been flying for hundreds of thousands of hours in the USAF. EF achieved 250,000 hours this year. This allowed the PAF to relatively use the system to the fullest at a significantly faster rate than the USAF would have.

What I mean is after an aircraft has seen 100,000 hours of service it becomes a mature aircraft. MKI also took a few years for the same. So, that's where the advantage becomes apparent. According to Ripples, China will induct the J-20 soon so he questions the validity of inducting a 4.5th gen aircraft, but he has not taken into account the time it will take for the J-20 to mature in service. As radical as a 5th gen is, it will take longer for both IAF and PLAAF to actually learn all aspects of the FGFA and J-20 before it can be used to its fullest capabilities. And this will take time, along with getting the required numbers which should take a decade for both. Even though we know that Rafale is coming in nearly a decade late, we should also realize that the aircraft has already achieved maturity and is proven. So, the IAF completely cuts out the time it takes to train crew and employ it in battle.

This decade is when we need the Rafale the most. Normally, we should have begun inducting Rafale back in 2008 or 2010 and it would have been in service for at least 20 years before it becomes less relevant, rather than just 10 years today. We are inducting the FGFA to fight a future war, while we are inducting Rafale to fight a war that can happen within a decade from today. Even after that Rafale will continue being useful because of its qualities at breaching a well defended air space and carrying huge loads at long ranges.

As for LCA. The LCA Mk1 has not achieved ASR. No need to beat this dead horse because ADA has already confirmed it. Apart from that it is also not as capable as other jets like Jaguar or Mirage-2000 because these aircraft are proven jets carrying very similar technologies as LCA Mk1 while being significantly better in their areas of performance. To top that our pilots have decades on experience on these jets, unlike LCA which is yet to be inducted. Now this is for LCA Mk1 which is yet to be inducted, so you can only imagine when it will achieve systems maturity. Let's not even begin to talk about LCA Mk2 which is yet to be designed, built, flight tested, cleared for operational flights and then achieve systems maturity. LCA Mk2 is today where LCA Mk1 was in 1990. Even though this program will happen much faster, there are no guarantees where the next roadblock can come up. So, relying on LCA is like the luck of the draw. A gamble. We can't take such a risk. Who could predict the US and Russia will be back at it again over Ukraine? And who can predict when the US will sanction us again.

Basically, Rafale is fully ready to fight a war within this decade, while LCA Mk2 is to be ready only the next decade, and achieve systems maturity at the end of the next decade, around the same time as FGFA or J-20. And everybody already knows and "most" already accept that Rafale is the better fighter among the two. So, I won't have to bring that up in this post. It's become pointless to even bring it up.

The Americans achieved systems maturity for the F-22 only in 2008, after 3 years of service. But they are still learning how to employ their aircraft properly. This normally takes a decade. And older aircraft are very important until then because battlefield commanders don't care about specs, they are only concerned with whether it will get the job done. And they rely on a weapons system only after it is proven either in service or in war, and Rafale has achieved at both.

 

[Defcon 1]

Rafale deal won't see significant profit margins for anybody. It should be less than 10%. Only certain unique govt to govt deals end up with such profit margins and are extremely rare.

That is what Dassault will have you believe. They will inflate their costs to show lower profits. The apparent IRR will be very low. However the actual IRR will be very high. All the public private partnership projects work in this manner.

Anyways, so long.

 

[p2prada]

That is what Dassault will have you believe. They will inflate their costs to show lower profits. The apparent IRR will be very low. However the actual IRR will be very high. All the public private partnership projects work in this manner.

Anyways, so long.

They wouldn't have won the tender that way. Dassault will earn from after sales support, they all do.

 

[rahulrds1]

"AESA Radar will be ready for LCA by next year" ! , Avinash Chander (DRDO DG)

DRDO Preparing for Tomorrow - YouTube

 

[Defcon 1]

They wouldn't have won the tender that way. Dassault will earn from after sales support, they all do.

They would have. The bid model presented for financial evaluation always shows the most optimistic scenario in order to win the tender. After winning the bid, you can always assign new values to variables which were given optimistic values earlier. The cost escalates and you earn billions.

 

[p2prada]

They would have. The bid model presented for financial evaluation always shows the most optimistic scenario in order to win the tender. After winning the bid, you can always assign new values to variables which were given optimistic values earlier. The cost escalates and you earn billions.

I suppose we will know how much the Rafale costs in terms of unit price when HAL announces the figures, or the Parliament. We already know how much it costs the French.

 

[Mad Indian]

@ersakthivel


Dude I gave the date you asked- rafale deal will be signed before the end of 2015 and full induction of the jets will be completed before 2025.

Now I dare you for the fourth time to give a date for LCA mk.2 prototype, LP, SP, and the timeline for full induction:accepted:


Since you are a big fan boy of the DRDO, lets see how much trust you yourself have towards LCA and DRDO

Claims about even 5th gen tech on LCA would mean jack shit when it is yet to fly

 

[Mad Indian]

And I seriously cant understand the logic of people who claim non sense like LCA >>> Rafale and other shit. If it is so, LCA should win all the export orders around the world hands down considering how cheap it is claimed to be! Is it possible that the entire world is conspiring against the Tejas alonng with co-operation from IAF and MOD?

God I am starting to sound like a paki

 

[aerokan]

And I seriously cant understand the logic of people who claim non sense like LCA >>> Rafale and other shit. If it is so, LCA should win all the export orders around the world hands down considering how cheap it is claimed to be! Is it possible that the entire world is conspiring against the Tejas alonng with co-operation from IAF and MOD?

God I am starting to sound like a paki

Come back when you start to understand what point others are making

 

[Mad Indian]

Come back when you start to understand what point others are making

What exactly is the point they are making here? Care to explain. May be I am a bit dimwitted as to understand how these geniuses plan on inducting LCA mk2 in the numbers they are claiming in the time period we need when it is yet to make first flight and that too if LCA actually is what they claim it to be(which I highly doubt)

Btw, you too belong to LCA equivalent to Rafale brigade, huh?