ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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ersakthivel

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Favour Tejas to Meet IAF Needs | idrw.org

Winston Churchill, as the First Lord of Admiralty in 1911, is credited with "technological prescience" by British commentators for building the 12-inch gunned Dreadnought-class battleships. When the First World War began, the Royal Navy's Grand Fleet was the British force to keep Kaiser Wilhelm II's seaward ambitions in check even as an unprepared army was mowed down by the German juggernaut, in the opening phase.
Remarkably, the Churchillian kind of prescience was manifest in Jawaharlal Nehru's nursing a weapons-capable nuclear energy programme because he believed India could not afford to miss out on the "nuclear revolution" as it had done the "gun-powder revolution" consequenting in its enslavement. And, in the conventional military field, it was evident in his seeding an indigenous defence industry with combat aircraft design and development at its core. Nehru imported, not combat aircraft but, a leading combat aircraft designer—the redoubtable Kurt Tank, progenitor of the Focke-Wulfe warplanes for Hitler's Luftwaffe. Tank succeeded in putting an HF-24 Marut prototype in the air by 1961 and in training a talented group of Indian designers at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
By the time the Tank-trained Raj Mahindra-led team designed the successor Marut Mark-II, Nehru was gone and neither Lal Bahadur Shastri nor his successor, Indira Gandhi, unfortunately had the strategic vision or technological prescience to provide political support for it. Indira permitted the purchase of the British Jaguar aircraft for low-level attack, leading to the termination of the Marut Mk-II optimised for the same mission. It ended the chance of India emerging early as an independent aerospace power in the manner Brazil and Israel have done in recent years. The inglorious era of importing military hardware was on. The resulting vendor-driven procurement system has decanted enormous wealth from India to arms supplier states—Russia, UK, France, the United States, Israel and Italy.
Arun Jaitley, the BJP finance minister-cum-defence minister, is saddled with the familiar problem of too many high-cost government programmes and too little money. He has an opportunity to reduce the huge hard currency expenditure involved in buying foreign armaments and reverse the policy of ignoring indigenous options and private sector defence industrial capability. He can give the lead to the Indian military as the British Treasury had done to the Admiralty in 1918-1938 by pushing for the development of aircraft carriers when the Royal Navy was stuck on the Dreadnought.
There are two far-seeing decisions he can take. With the US bid of $840 million for 150 M-777 light howitzers (without technology transfer) rejected as cost prohibitive, Jaitley can instruct the army to test and induct the modern, ultra-light heliportable gun, to outfit the new offensive mountain corps, produced jointly by a private sector company and an American firm, Rock Island Arsenal, that'll cost less than half as much. And he could terminate the Rafale contract and, importantly, restore responsibility for the Tejas programme to the IAF, which was kept out of it by the science adviser—SA—to defence minister V S Arunachalam in the 1980s. It will mean IAF funding further developments in the Tejas programme from its own R&D budget which, according to an ex-senior defence technologist, can be increased to any amount, and was the course of action recommended by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and SA. It will render IAF accountable to Parliament.
The choices before the BJP government are stark. Is it pragmatic to channel in excess of $30 billion to Paris that'll keep the French aerospace sector in clover and help amortise the multi-billion Euro investment in developing the Rafale, which has no customers other than IAF? Or, use the present difficulties as an opportunity to fundamentally restructure the Indian military aviation sector? This last will involve getting (1) HAL to produce the low-cost (`26 crore by HAL's reckoning) Tejas Mk-1 for air defence with 4.5 generation avionics, low detection, and other features, for squadron service, and to export it in line with prime minister Narendra Modi's thinking and to defray some of the plane's development costs, and (2) ADA and the Aircraft Research & Design Centre at HAL to redesign Tejas Mark-2 as a genuine MMRCA with the originally conceived canard-delta wing configuration (whose absence has made the Mk-1 incapable of meeting onerous operational requirements, like acceleration and sustained turn rates in dogfights) and having it ready for production by 2019—the dateline for Rafale induction.
With the Rafale potentially out of the picture and IAF left with only a limited-capability Tejas for air defence, security needs for the next 15 years until the Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft enters IAF in strength, can be met by buying additional Su-30s and MiG-29s off-the-shelf and/or contracting for larger numbers of the Su-30s to be built by HAL with a deal to get the private sector to manufacture the required spares in-country, all for a fraction of the cost of Rafale. Some Service brass do not care for Russian aircraft but Su-30MKI and MiG-29 are already in IAF's employ, and are rated the two best warplanes available anywhere (barring the discontinued American F-22) for combat and air defence respectively. A new Su-30MKI, moreover, costs $65 million, which is slightly more than what India forks out for upgrading the 30-year-old Mirage 2000.
Had the design-wise more challenging canard-delta winged Tejas, recommended by four of the six international aviation majors hired as consultants, not been discarded and international best practices followed from when the Light Combat Aircraft programme was initiated in 1982, ADA (design bureau), HAL and IAF would have worked together. IAF would have inputted ideas at the design and prototype stages, HAL produced the prototypes, and IAF pilots flown them. The design validation and rectification, certification, pre-production, and production processes would then have been in sync and progressed apace. The Tejas air defence variant will have entered squadron service and the larger Mk-2, close behind, occupied the MMRCA slot. The lessons are that indigenous weapons projects demand integrated effort, weapons designers need to be less diffident and Indian military ought to helm indigenous armaments projects. Jaitley can ensure these things happen.


Edit:
@ersakthivel : I hope this is not written by you... lol...because it presents your and mine views:rofl:
And this Article raises again an old question Can Tejas MK2 be a MMRCA
See my comments on the comments section of this article in the following link,

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Favour Tejas to Meet IAF Needs | Security Wise
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Effective combat range with effective weapon load will depend upon the criteria called fuel fraction, i.e weight of internal fuel/empty operational weight of the fighter.

In this area even tejas mk1 better than gripen C.

Then a question arises why range of tejas was often quoted less, it may be due to the reason that new super sonic center line fuel tank was not validated till IOC-2, Even without that The press information beruau release clearly stated that the combat range of tejas is 500 Km. It means a combat range in excess of 1000 Km in a low penetration fuel consuming flight into enemy territory, with extra fuel allocation for take off, a few minutes of high fuel consuming close combat and high fuel consuming After burner thrust .

But other fighter makers give misleading combat range figures with minimum weapon config and high altitude(less fuel consuming flight path) with no allocation for close combat and AB thrust and low penetration mode.

Roughly the fuel fraction above will give us effective combat utilization of the fighter.

Su-30MK: 34.9%(Empty weight: 17,700 kg,Internal fuel: 9,500 kg)

Rafale: 31.4% ~ 33.6%(Empty weight: 9,500 ~ 10,220 kg,Internal fuel: 4,680 ~ 4,800 kg)

JAS-39NG: 30.6%(Empty weight: 7,100 kg,Internal fuel: 3,130 kg)

MIG-35: 28.6%(Empty weight: 12,000 kg,Internal fuel: 4,800 kg)

Tejas: 27.0%(Empty weight: 6,500 kg,Internal fuel: 2,400 kg)

JF-17: 26.3%(Empty weight: 6,450 kg,Internal fuel: 2,300 kg)

JAS-39C: 25.0%(Empty weight: 6,800 kg,Internal fuel: 2,268 kg)

This is a fair comparison of fuel fractions with just internal fuel , and the same percentage will more or less reflect with external fuels also,

So Tejas mk-1(which still has 400 KG of flight test equipment on board, removal of them will lead to even better fuel fraction) itself has much better fuel fractions than grippen C/D with more TW ratio and lower wing loading,

Tejas mk-2 will easily compare to RAFALE which has just 4 percent more in fuel fractions than Tejas mk-1.

So in indian conditions there won't be no issues with range of tejas mk-1 or mk-2 in useful combat configuration if we take into account that four tejas can be operated for one RAFALE if we include total lifecycle costs and upgrade costs,

So there is no way Tejas can be faulted on weapon load or range. A full read of the link above will show how fighter makers abroad indulge in word play when it comes to range and load figures!!! , to fool the people.

Also indian hot atmospheric conditions sap close to 10 percent of engine thrust and 12 percent of wing lift.

So most of the fancy , combat specs ,pay load and range figure mentioned in the glossy brochure wont be achieved in indian climatic conditions.

All tejas specs are for indian hot climate, but other fighter maker's specs are for IDSA temp which is far less than indian atmospheric temp.

Close coupled canards are discarded in all fighters from latest fighters from Russia(SU-35) and F-35, F-22 from US, because of RCS concerns arising from latest gen ASEA radars,

the cranked delta of tejas also does the same job done by canards i.e vortex creation o delay flow separation.

And LEVCONS(like in PAKFA) can do the job of canards without giving extra radar reflection like canards.

anards also have may tricky control issues like force coupling and pilot induced oscillation which restrict the efficiency of wing.

And there are many types of canard arrangements like close coupled on rafale and long momentum arm like typhoon , each of them having their own tricky control issues.

canards were considered on F-35 and later dropped.

Even for the evolution of F-16 ino F-16 XL its designers chose cranked delta like tejas , with concerns over RCS emissions from canards. Also in canard arrangements canards are designed to stall before the main wing, so the main wing never achieves its full efficiency.

There are already some videos on the net with two gripen pilots facing the pilot induced oscilation problem peculiar to canards and let the plane crash unable to recover from it.

Eventhough later it was claimed that this problem was resolved, we don't know how it was done or whether any flight envelope restrictions were added because of this.

That is the reason why US and Russian fighter designs always rejected canards in their latest 5th gen fighters and are employing compound delta with levcons(same arrangement proposed for tejas mk2).

The Chinese J-20 was a copy of the rejected mig 1.44 delta canard stealth version(in favour of LEVCON , compound delta in pakfa exactly present in tejas mk2).

So redesigning tejas with canards will be an extremely job throwing its induction into jeopardy.
Also the reason cited by ADA for not including canards was,
1.it will add 3 feet to fuselage length,
2,It will add more weight .
3.During wind tunnel testing for the small airframe design of tejas , it did not give any considerable performance enhancement for the above two penalties it imposed.
It is pertinent to note that gripen C which had canards is 300 Kg more in empty weight in tejas and 3 feet longer in length.

In indian hot atmospheric condition which already saps 12 percent engine thrut and lift this added weight and drag will make tejas further underpowered.

Also in a quest to make gripen E more of an MMRCA new fairings were added to it further increasing drag and now it weighs more than 7 tons in empty weight.

But the path chosen for tejas mk2 is very simple. Add 0.5 meter in fuselage to smoothen the cross section increase between 4 and 5 meter lengths in fuselage and retain the same design and go for further weight reduction by increasing the percentage of composites to more than 50 percent.
It will make teja mk2 far more effective and developmental path would be very short and less complex with no time over run.

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The following is Mr. Bharath karnad's response to my above comments,

I am not technically proficient in these matters, but I have, I think, good intuition on most matters technological and strategic, and can grasp the basics fast. Should have mentioned the Levcons built into the navalized variant of Tejas as the most suitable Mk-2- AMCA option. Regret not doing so. But thank you for response(s) on this and other issues re: Tejas/MMRCA on earlier occasions. Between the contributions to this blog by you and @RV, have learned an awful lot about combat aircraft architecture and technologies — as no doubt have the other readers of this blog. Thanks again!
 
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ersakthivel

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I asked a very simple question on whether you can confidently give dates for the LCA mk.2 to fly, to enter LP and SP and full induction into the force and you have deliberately avoided answering it as it is "THE" single most factor regarding LCA as of now and have instead given your usual LCA techno babble.

I will repeat again, even if LCA had 5th gen tech, it would mean jack shit as it is not gonna fly anytime soon when it is actually needed.

BTW dude, its very irritating when you avoid the questions deliberately and stick with non-sequitors. NO wonder @p2prada ignores you. If you are not gonna provide a date for your precious LCA, I am gonna stop replying to you :rolleyes:
See the post above for some info,

And tejas mk2 will enter service by 2020, the same time rafale will enter meaning ful strength in IAF is the deal is signed tomorrow,

SAAB completed the development effort on gripen E or NG in two years flat, and there is no reason why ADA can't do it in 4 or five years,Especially mk2 is nothing but implementing the 12 requests for Action (among the 250 raised by IAF after it belatedly joined the development effort in 2006)missed out in tejas mk1.

Unlike gripen E no new fairings or new weapon stations are planned, just plain increase in fuselage length to smoother the rapid increase in cross section of tejas mk1 fuselage between 4 and 5 meters along the length of fuselage and widening the fuselage to put new GE 414 IN S6 engine.

ADA plans to keep the same wing loading for tejas(weoght of the fighter/area of the wing (in square meters)) .

So it is not a radical redesign like gripen Ng, and it does not need to be.If yo are still not clear about it read my post no-3182 above.

Also a lot depends upon IAF attitude also, if they adopt a practical approach it can be easily done as it is being done in the case of F-35 by USAF, TYPHOON by various European airforces and J-20, J-10 by PLAF.

If they ask the french to add a
1 meter ASEA radar on the front,
one rear section radar,
and a 3d thrust vectoring engine on rafale,

when do you think french will deliver this upgraded Rafae?

If you want to see another long and rancorous technical(!?!?!?!) debate between me and your guru @p2prada you are in for a disappointment.
All points are already covered in this thread. And there is nothing much to recriminate all over again.

Since your guru can not make dish out great aeronautical genius comments like,

1. A squadron of tejas can be wiped out by a couple of Mig-21,
2,Smalll fighters like tejas need no ASEA radar,
3.A BVR missile fired from tejas can not get mid course corrections from any other IAF fighter,
4. Wing loading is a specification related to passenger aircraft.
5.Only big fighters can fire long range BVRs,
6. No Tandem or multi rack launch pylons can be put on tejas because it will make tejas fall out of sky due to excess drag,
7.tejas is 30 years too late, while much older designs like TYPHOON, RAfALE,and GRIPEN are latest and greates,
8. tejas air intake is so poorly designed that it gets starved and could not pull the fighter to any AOA greater than 16 deg.
9. top speed achieved by tejas was mach 1.4 and not mach 1.6,
10. tejas is subsonic in sea level flight.
11. HAL is understating the tejas cost at 162 crores , because it is ADA that is going to pay for the engines,
12.Mig-21 has a much higher tracking and detection range than tejas radar,

because they have already been conclusively proven as wrong by me and many others here , SO there is nothing to debate whether he ignores me or not.

Point is what is your intention of not rebutting any of the points I posted in my replies to you and looking for your mandarin learning guru.

If you want a capability debate on tejas with me I can post the links to pages I have already written in , in this thread.

Just go through the thread from the first page and you can learn all you want about aerodynamics with out the help of any guru because i have provided various links to substantiate my points,

my posts are not like four blind man and an elephant stuff.

if you have any questions for your guru , you can ask him directly, i will not intervene in your debates,

got it?

thanks.
 
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Mad Indian

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See the post above for some info,

And tejas mk2 will enter service by 2020, the same time rafale will enter meaning ful strength in IAF is the deal is signed tomorrow,

SAAB completed the development effort on gripen E or NG in two years flat, and there is no reason why ADA can't do it in 4 or five years,Especially mk2 is nothing but implementing the 12 requests for Action (among the 250 raised by IAF after it belatedly joined the development effort in 2006)missed out in tejas mk1.

Unlike gripen E no new fairings or new weapon stations are planned, just plain increase in fuselage length to smoother the rapid increase in cross section of tejas mk1 fuselage between 4 and 5 meters along the length of fuselage and widening the fuselage to put new GE 414 IN S6 engine.

ADA plans to keep the same wing loading for tejas(weoght of the fighter/area of the wing (in square meters)) .

So it is not a radical redesign like gripen Ng, and it does not need to be.If yo are still not clear about it read my post no-3182 above.

Also a lot depends upon IAF attitude also, if they adopt a practical approach it can be easily done as it is being done in the case of F-35 by USAF, TYPHOON by various European airforces and J-20, J-10 by PLAF.

If they ask the french to add a
1 meter ASEA radar on the front,
one rear section radar,
and a 3d thrust vectoring engine on rafale,

when do you think french will deliver this upgraded Rafae?

If you want to see another long and rancorous technical(!?!?!?!) debate between me and your guru @p2prada you are in for a disappointment.
All points are already covered in this thread. And there is nothing much to recriminate all over again.

Since your guru can not make dish out great aeronautical genius comments like,

1. A squadron of tejas can be wiped out by a couple of Mig-21,
2,Smalll fighters like tejas need no ASEA radar,
3.A BVR missile fired from tejas can not get mid course corrections from any other IAF fighter,
4. Wing loading is a specification related to passenger aircraft.
5.Only big fighters can fire long range BVRs,
6. No Tandem or multi rack launch pylons can be put on tejas because it will make tejas fall out of sky due to excess drag,
7.tejas is 30 years too late, while much older designs like TYPHOON, RAfALE,and GRIPEN are latest and greates,
8. tejas air intake is so poorly designed that it gets starved and could not pull the fighter to any AOA greater than 16 deg.
9. top speed achieved by tejas was mach 1.4 and not mach 1.6,
10. tejas is subsonic in sea level flight.
11. HAL is understating the tejas cost at 162 crores , because it is ADA that is going to pay for the engines,
12.Mig-21 has a much higher tracking and detection range than tejas radar,

because they have already been conclusively proven as wrong by me and many others here , SO there is nothing to debate whether he ignores me or not.

Point is what is your intention of not rebutting any of the points I posted in my replies to you and looking for your mandarin learning guru.

If you want a capability debate on tejas with me I can post the links to pages I have already written in , in this thread.

Just go through the thread from the first page and you can learn all you want about aerodynamics with out the help of any guru because i have provided various links to substantiate my points,

my posts are not like four blind man and an elephant stuff.

if you have any questions for your guru , you can ask him directly, i will not intervene in your debates,

got it?

thanks.
:lol:

All I asked for was a date and you have just produced a post full of non sequitors. Seriously ? Dude just accept that even you cant predict how long it will take for LCA mk2 to have its first flight/LP/SP/IOC/FOC and hence it is a useless white elephant wrt Rafale
 
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ersakthivel

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:lol:

All I asked for was a date and you have just produced a post full of non sequitors. Seriously ? Dude just accept that even you cant predict how long it will take for LCA mk2 to have its first flight/LP/SP/IOC/FOC and hence it is a useless white elephant wrt Rafale
may 1st 2020 , on my birthday it will get FOC,
Is that good enough?

Once funding was given gripen NG development took just two years and it even contested MMRCA with nothing but wholesome praise from IAF. It has won competitions in Switzerland and Brasil without even getting to PV, LSP, SP, IOC and FOC grind ?

Do you think they are all fools choosing it without IOC, FOC and what not?

Hundreds of TYPHOONs are flying in European airforces without even finishing ground bombing mode.

PAKFA is to be inducted in Russain next year with a radar and an engine not meant for it.

100 F-35s are already in USAF without any IOC.

Should I repeat it 100 times?

So I said tejas mk2 can be finished in in 5 years at the max. So what is your problem?

Tejas mk2 program did not start day before yesterday. It started in 2009 itself.
 
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Mad Indian

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may 1st 2020 , on my birthday it will get FOC,
Is that good enough?
Not even close. I asked about the date of its first flight as a prototype, the day it will enter LP and the day it will enter Seriel production . And the day it will be completely inducted into the IAF to its last orders

Once funding was given gripen NG development took just two years and it even contested MMRCA with nothing but wholesome praise from IAF. It has won competitions in Switzerland and Brasil without even getting to PV, LSP, SP, IOC and FOC grind ?
:lol:Yeah sure, lets compare SAAB with DRDO.
Do you think they are all fools choosing it without IOC, FOC and what not?
Are they under any threat of two front war any time soon?:rolleyes:
Hundreds of TYPHOONs are flying in European airforces without even finishing ground bombing mode.
What is the existing force levels/equipment of european airforces and their threat perceptions. THEN come and talk about this non sense
PAKFA is to be inducted in Russain next year with a radar and an engine not meant for it.
Russians have hundreds of other fighters to fall back on unlike our depleting fleet. And I dont think Russia has to deal with a psycho like Pakistan
100 F-35s are already in USAF without any IOC.
Guess, What other aircrafts are "also" there in USAF? USAF can afford to induct F35s without full maturity and so can the european countries- the Typhoon unlike India. India does not have that luxury
Should I repeat it 100 times?

So I said tejas mk2 can be finished in in 5 years at the max. So what is your problem?

Tejas mk2 program did not start day before yesterday. It started in 2009 itself.
Wow. How nice! So ,where the Fuk is the prototype which was supposed to fly in 2014?
 

Twinblade

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"AESA Radar will be ready for LCA by next year" ! , Avinash Chander (DRDO DG)

DRDO Preparing for Tomorrow - YouTube
By next year gives it 18 months, add standard DRDO 50% deadline extension makes it 27 months, add another 3 months for contingency, which makes it January 2017 :), that's a more realistic timeline. Then when the Mk2 gets delayed, the weapons integration team will blame it on the radar team and the DRDO head will come out and say that Tejas Mk2 is on track and the PIB website, instead of listing the status of DRDO projects will feature a large sad smilie face with "We are sorry" written in comic sans.

Dude? Seriously? What can the defence forces do if the domestic companies just wont deliver?
If DRDO was a publicly traded company, all the past and present heads would be in jail for misleading the investors. They said in December that SP-1 will roll out in march. They lied. They said in June that FOC is 'on track' and they will achieve it by December 2014. They lied and Jaitely had to come out and clarify. These are not long term projections, these are projections about the next coming months. You have to be either grossly incompetent or a habitual liar to do such a thing.

Wow. How nice! So ,where the Fuk is the prototype which was supposed to fly in 2014?
OMG, DRDO Chief lied !! That must be a first in Indian History !! /Sarcasm.
 
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ersakthivel

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If services induct stuff in phased manner as seen in F-35, Typhoon tranches and rafale F-3 standars with adequate funding , private sector will come in.
But if projects are sabotaged with ASR, GSQR fundamentalism then same old story will repeat again and again.
 
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p2prada

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If DRDO was a publicly traded company, all the past and present heads would be in jail for misleading the investors. They said in December that SP-1 will roll out in march. They lied. They said in June that FOC is 'on track' and they will achieve it by December 2014. They lied and Jaitely had to come out and clarify. These are not long term projections, these are projections about the next coming months. You have to be either grossly incompetent or a habitual liar to do such a thing.
What makes you think even March 2015 deadline will be kept?

We should invent a new word rather than deadline when it comes to DRDO. Or just stick IST next to it. Like FOC "will" happen by March 2015 IST.

You have to be either grossly incompetent or a habitual liar to do such a thing.
...Or both.
 

Mad Indian

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Well you are just another moron harping on delays which were the result of stepmotherly attitude of import loving ever specs upgrading services , which are ready to pour billions of dollar to other country's kitty , but doggedly refusing to part with a single rupee for home grown program even as a token commitment,

and UPA regime which was busy priming the pump for their Yuvraj to become Emperor for the past en years.

If at all the 60 percent iincrease in DRDO budget which was promptly announced by Jaitley despite the funds crunch rasisng the allocation to 7 percent of defence outlay which was a long pending demand of DRDO,

was done from 2004 itself and more manpower and resources were allocated the program could have been faster.

Why don't fools like you ask why the chinese are testing two 5th gen stealth prototypes simultaneously refusing to take part in PAKFA with an unflinching aim of maturing the R&D level and production tech of their home grown industry? They don't even have 5th gen engine tech to put them on the prototype, Still why they are doing it?

DO any morons like you and your illicit guru ask why without getting IOC, FOC and induction for J-20 chinese are flying J-31, and refusing to buy PAKFA when they face the combined might of US-Japan?

Also weren't there any other fighter in international market that was not fit to meet the needs of french air force and EU airforces at the time they were foolishly spending money of Rafale and typhoon? There were a host of US fighters available to them from the eighties when they were embarking on these program. Didn't they face any threat in these times ?

Aren't there any other fighter available to Sweedish forces other than gripen, when they were foolishly spending money on Gripen A/B, C/D and now E version?

I just can't understand why you can't spare a few minutesw to think about these rather than typing worth for nothing posts?


No wonder the kind of Gyan you received from mandarin learning gurus can only get you this far , to the state or perpetual ranting mad dog.

About your fking claim that all the predictions given by your guru has come good after six months,,,,, Please give me one proof and I will show you ten that were consistently belied .
You were trolling in this forum from day 1 on with your incessant non sense about the DRDO and LCA. Now you have resorted to name calling. How typical of the trolls! Anyway, lets analyse my questions and your replies(trolls) for it now shall we?


Not even close. I asked about the date of its first flight as a prototype, the day it will enter LP and the day it will enter Seriel production . And the day it will be completely inducted into the IAF to its last orders
In my above quote, since you fanboys were advocating LCA mk.2 in place of Rafale, I was asking for the date LCA mk.2 is even supposed to fly and is expected to be seriel produced And this is the nonsense you reply with, which has not answered my post in anyway. What a big surprise there for me:rolleyes:
All fighter aircrafts get inducted before FOC, by the time they receive their FOC. Such simple things don't excite you it seems,
Yeah sure, lets compare SAAB with DRDO.
I post the above quote to say that DRDO cant be compared with SAAB as DRDO are just pathological liars wrt SAAB. And then you proceed to post a completely inrelated article full of dreams of a retired IAF staff :rolleyes:


Are they under any threat of two front war any time soon
Then, I ask the above question about the countries which are not purchasing Rafale, for which as usual you reply with completely unrelated nonsense:

If you ask the swedes what was the main threat that was in their mind when they designed Gripen , the answer is Flanker. As far as I know the most potent fighter in PLAF is the in their flanker feet. AFAIK no one phoo phooed SAAB for their claim.

If you produce convincing proof that ,In a two front war 60 rafales in apk side and 60 rafales in china side will bring in war winning capability for the huge 20 billion dollar price we are paying then lets debate about two front war,
What is the existing force levels/equipment of european airforces and their threat perceptions. THEN come and talk about this non sense
In the above quote I was saying that European scenerio cant be compared with India for which you have delivered another nonsense:

DO you know that?

Russians have hundreds of other fighters to fall back on unlike our depleting fleet. And I dont think Russia has to deal with a psycho like Pakistan
In my above quote, I am talking about the huge inventory of Russians compared to the depleting squadron strength of IAF here and about how Russians dont have to deal with a psycho like Pakis and here is your drivel regarding that. You have not addressed my point on Russian numerical/technical edge in airforce wrt to IAF and hence cant be compared to us and have not even countered why Pakis are not nutcases:rolleyes: :
pakistan is no psycho. Every nation takes calculated actions to further their interest, In the last 50 years who stopped psycho pak from unleashing an all out war?
BTW, your own quote explains why my point that Pakis are psychos is very valid. Despite having conventional inferiority and losing every war before, Pakis declared four wars on us,. Guess having a conventional edge is important if you dont have the initiative in the military strategy, if the previous wars or an indication of anything. Which is why we cant afford to lose the conventional edge due to depleting strength. BTW, when we dint have a technological superiority, PAF kicked IAF's butt, like in 1965. Thats what you fan boys are advocating now:mad:

Guess, What other aircrafts are "also" there in USAF? USAF can afford to induct F35s without full maturity and so can the european countries- the Typhoon unlike India. India does not have that luxury
In the above quote, I am talking about how we cant compare the situation of USAF with IAF because of the huge difference in each other's inventory(among other things like threat perceptions) and big surprise, you have given a completely unrelated reply as usual:

Not exactly. Public opinion is far more informed in US to allow the perpetual gravy train runs in the name of arms procurement as is being done here.
We have this unprecedented luxury of hoping that french would stand by us in an all out two front war with pak and china braving chinese Nuclear missile threat , all for the sake of few dollars more as propounded by many fools in the name of diversifying the placing of eggs in different foreign baskets , rather than building local capacity like all other nations do.
Wow. How nice! So ,where the Fuk is the prototype which was supposed to fly in 2014?
In the above quote , I ask about the useless claims of DRDO by asking you where the LCA mk2 prototype is as promised by the DRDO, since you claimed that DRDO is working for a long time now in your previous post , and you reply with a totally unrelated drivel about Rafale:rolleyes: :


Now your language is bordering on insane,
In the same fking area where the rafale with asked for specs by IAF is standing.
 
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Mad Indian

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@pmaitra Dude, replace his post after editing out his ad hominems. It was a perfect opportunity for me to show how much trolling he is doing here and I spent 15 minutes specifically showing/editing that.

And seriously, you guys are trading this fellow for someone like @p2prada :rolleyes: ? I mean, I have seen p2p getting infractions left and right for nothing !

Anyway, good luck with this forum's growth when people like @p2prada desert this forum!
 
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Mad Indian

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What makes you think even March 2015 deadline will be kept?

We should invent a new word rather than deadline when it comes to DRDO. Or just stick IST next to it. Like FOC "will" happen by March 2015 IST.



...Or both.
If what you are claiming is true, we cant see the LCA mk.2 prototype before 2017 , can we?
 

Mad Indian

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If DRDO was a publicly traded company, all the past and present heads would be in jail for misleading the investors. They said in December that SP-1 will roll out in march. They lied. They said in June that FOC is 'on track' and they will achieve it by December 2014. They lied and Jaitely had to come out and clarify. These are not long term projections, these are projections about the next coming months. You have to be either grossly incompetent or a habitual liar to do such a thing.
If what I heard from DRDO employees about DRDO is to be believed, I really dont think jailing them is too much. What they are doing is something akin to treason, putting national security in jeopardy!
 

pmaitra

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@pmaitra Dude, replace his post after editing out his ad hominems. It was a perfect opportunity for me to show how much trolling he is doing here and I spent 15 minutes specifically showing/editing that.

And seriously, you guys are trading this fellow for someone like @p2prada :rolleyes: ? I mean, I have seen p2p getting infractions left and right for nothing !

Anyway, good luck with this forum's growth when people like @p2prada desert this forum!
I don't have so much time, unfortunately. I would have done it otherwise.

He can re-post his comments without the ad hominems. The posts will remain deleted.
 
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Pulkit

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@p2prada By deadline they mean : Don't expect the product before that date it will be only after it....Till the time they actually present it ,it is always work in progress.:namaste:



If what you are claiming is true, we cant see the LCA mk.2 prototype before 2017 , can we?
LCA MK2 was not started today its been a while it was started so we can expect prototype by then i.e. 2017....
as there will not be much changes other than few in comparison to MK1 FOC standard so IOC and FOC of MK2 should not consume alot of time..... so by 2018 I am hoping it will get FOC and will b in production..... by 2022 we are hoping to have a entire Squad of MK2 by then FGFA will also be in full flow...
 
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ersakthivel

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@pmaitra Dude, replace his post after editing out his ad hominems. It was a perfect opportunity for me to show how much trolling he is doing here and I spent 15 minutes specifically showing/editing that.

And seriously, you guys are trading this fellow for someone like :rolleyes: ? I mean, I have seen p2p getting infractions left and right for nothing !

Anyway, good luck with this forum's growth when people like @p2prada desert this forum!
A perfect opportunity for you to show your trolling skills for the past three page I mean,

I remember once you claiming to be a Doctor in another thread.

Say if a pregnant woman comes to you and asks for the exact time and date of her expected child birth , Will you be able to give that answer?

What will you do if the same woman repeatedly asks the same question again and again , and with you unable to give exact time being called a quake doctor by a company of certified trolls as is being done here for the past three pages?

i have already posted 10 points on which a poster(@p2prada ) lied repeatedly for years and conclusively proved wrong by me.

In fact when a mod here pointed out to him to show proof for this, he abused him and got banned. That is a reality known to every one here, How hard you and him try now, it can't be erased .

1. A squadron of tejas can be wiped out by a couple of Mig-21,
2,Smalll fighters like tejas need no ASEA radar,
3.A BVR missile fired from tejas can not get mid course corrections from any other IAF fighter,
4. Wing loading is a specification related to passenger aircraft.
5.Only big fighters can fire long range BVRs,
6. No Tandem or multi rack launch pylons can be put on tejas because it will make tejas fall out of sky due to excess drag,
7.tejas is 30 years too late, while much older designs like TYPHOON, RAfALE,and GRIPEN are latest and greates,
8. tejas air intake is so poorly designed that it gets starved and could not pull the fighter to any AOA greater than 16 deg.
9. top speed achieved by tejas was mach 1.4 and not mach 1.6,
10. tejas is subsonic in sea level flight.
11. HAL is understating the tejas cost at 162 crores , because it is ADA that is going to pay for the engines,
12.Mig-21 has a much higher tracking and detection range than tejas radar,
If you have any sense of honest debating intent you must reply to these ten point first,

If you are honest, You can easily remember how earnestly I tried to reply to your posts with nothing but technical points despite the obnoxious debating technique used by you.

I know it was a mistake to engage in conversations with trolls like you. It only leads to deadly poisonous provocation based on lies and getting warned.

I would know better than to reply to you ever again.

thanks for teaching me few things about how a gang of trolls operate here.

I don't have so much time, unfortunately. I would have done it otherwise.

He can re-post his comments without the ad hominems. The posts will remain deleted.
If you have enough time,please go through the last few pages of this thread which is being turned into endless rants by the guy to who you replied.

I remember once that guy claiming to be a Doctor in another thread.

Say if a pregnant woman comes to him and asks for the exact time and date of her expected child birth , Will that guy be able to give that answer?

I replied to him repeatedly that considering the gripen developmental time line for their C model and the newer E and NG model it won't take more than 5 years from now for tejas mk2 to be fully developed and inducted.

What is wrong with that?

Honestly do you think that these sort of arguments can be dragged for three pages in a thread to continually abuse another guy in company of a few more certified trolls to effectively shut down this thread?

i have already posted 10 points on which a poster(@p2prada ) lied repeatedly for years and conclusively proved wrong by me.

It is sad to see a thread being reduced to endless rants and peddling prejudiced motivated lies by a gang of trolls who want to shut it down.
 
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Pulkit

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Hez leaving now soon just 100 more posts from him Relax bro...
Tejas MK2 will be there by 2018 and in Production by 2020 and First squad by 2022 ....
Do you think this is realistic? or we need to say +/-2 years?


and reagarding that pregnant woman issue Yes a Doc can tell the date with +/- one week....

And just Ignore the Hatemongers they are not even ready to give a benefit of hope to others....

Today Swami Ji also said Cancel Rafale..... Did you read it... Hez gonna do what ever it takes ...


If you have enough time,please go through the last few pages of this thread which is being turned into endless rants by the guy to who you replied.

I remember once that guy claiming to be a Doctor in another thread.

Say if a pregnant woman comes to him and asks for the exact time and date of her expected child birth , Will that guy be able to give that answer?

I replied to him repeatedly that considering the gripen developmental time line for their C model and the newer E and NG model it won't take more than 5 years from now for tejas mk2 to be fully developed and inducted.

What is wrong with that?

Honestly do you think that these sort of arguments can be dragged for three pages in a thread to continually abuse another guy in company of a few more certified trolls to effectively shut down this thread?

i have already posted 10 points on which a poster(the same guy who he fears ,will leave this forum if I post like this!!!! ) lied repeatedly for years and conclusively proved wrong by me.

It is sad to see a thread being reduced to endless rants and peddling prejudiced lies by a gang of trolls who want to shut it down.
 

Zebra

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Hez leaving now soon just 100 more posts from him Relax bro...
Tejas MK2 will be there by 2018 and in Production by 2020 and First squad by 2022 ....
Do you think this is realistic? or we need to say +/-2 years?


and reagarding that pregnant woman issue Yes a Doc can tell the date with +/- one week....

And just Ignore the Hatemongers they are not even ready to give a benefit of hope to others....

Today Swami Ji also said Cancel Rafale..... Did you read it... Hez gonna do what ever it takes ...

:shocked: :confused: :scared2:
 
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