Rahul Singh
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So does the F-414. Dimension wise it is similar to F-404 IN20. Read the quote and decide yourself.
ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions
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Rahul Singh
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There are many theories and talks regarding which one will be most suitable. IMO for MK-3 Tejas F-414 will be most suitable because of following reasons
A. It is basically an improved version of F-404 which already onboard LCA.
B. It gives little more thrust than IAF minimum requirement, which is 90KN. Reserve thrust will make-up for any calculation mistake or meet updated requirement/revised ASR.
C. Relatively cheaper.
A. It is basically an improved version of F-404 which already onboard LCA.
B. It gives little more thrust than IAF minimum requirement, which is 90KN. Reserve thrust will make-up for any calculation mistake or meet updated requirement/revised ASR.
C. Relatively cheaper.
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notinlove
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here is a great article ....this gives a lot of insight as to how improved lca mk II will be
The F414 engine, although a new design, is derived from earlier engines, primarily the F412 designed for the A-12. The F414 is an advanced derivative of the F/A-18's current F404 engine family. The F414 Engine is a low bypass turbofan engine, with augmented thrust provided by the afterburner. The engine consists of six modules as follows: 1) Fan, 2) Compressor, 3) Combustor, 4) High Pressure Turbine, 5) Low Pressure Turbine, 6) Afterburner. The engine is controlled by a Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) which controls thrust modulation, fuel delivery, and governing. The new engine has increased thrust, an improved thrust-to-weight ratio of 9:1 and a 3- to 4-percent cruise-specific fuel consumption improvement over the F404-GE-400 engine. The F414 engine was conceived during studies begun in 1991 to develop an upgraded F/A-18 fighter with significant improvements in range and operational capability. Designated the F/A-18E/F, the Advanced Hornet is 25 percent larger than the currently operational F/A-18 Hornet - the US Navy’s premier carrier based multi-role fighter. The F414 that powers it is a 22,000-pound thrust class augmented turbofan engine. The F414 engines provides 35 percent more thrust than the GE F404 engines used in the original F/A-18.
More importantly, the F414 provides significant thrust increases in areas of the flight envelope critical to a multi-mission aircraft like the F/A-18E/F. It has 30 to 40 percent more thrust in the heart of the flight envelope to give the F/A-18E/F the advantage during close-in aerial combat, 25 to 30 percent more thrust supersonically for high altitude air combat intercept missions and over 40 percent more thrust for low-altitude air-to-ground missions where high speeds to and from the target area greatly enhance aircraft survivability.
Advanced, but well proven technologies allow the F414 to stay the same length and maximum aft-end diameter of the original F404 while producing more thrust. The F414 fan provides 16 percent more airflow than the F404 fan, with improved bird strike and foreign object damage resistance features adopted from the F404/RM12 fan. Performance and reliability have been built into the new advanced power plant by carefully selecting the latest proven technology from the GE23A, F412, YF120 and other GE military and commercial engines.
In addition to proven technology, more than five million flight hours of F404 operational experience were factored into the F414 design. As a result, durability, reliability, and performance have been enhanced. The F414 has a 2000-hour hot section life and a 4000-hour specification life for all other engine rotating components and structure. Critical rotating disks, shafts and engine structure have been designed using GE’s robust, damage-tolerant design practice. This delivers a three-fold improvement in low cycle fatigue compared to previously used design methods.
The F414 configuration has been carefully planned for low-risk development by selectively using proven component technologies. Integrally bladed disks, also called blisks, are used in the second and third stages of the fan, and the first three stages of the seven-stage compressor. These blisks provide a 53-pound, or 24-kilogram, weight savings over more conventional blade and disk dovetail joints. With fewer parts, blisks also improve overall engine reliability. Using blisk technology, the F414 has 484 fewer parts in the fan and compressor than the F404.
A compact, lightweight, annular combustor with 30 thousand laser-drilled cooling holes significantly lowers combustor wall temperatures for longer life. Sophisticated manufacturing equipment makes this design very affordable. Highly-loaded single-stage, air-cooled high and low pressure turbines use GE’s latest single crystal alloys. Three dimensional viscous flow modeling helped increase low pressure turbine efficiency more than one percentage point over previous design methods. Thermal barrier coatings also enhance the durability of both turbines.
The F414 use GE’s advanced air-cooled radial flameholder and spraybar system in the augmentor. This will increase flameholder life substantially when compared to the current F404 design. Durability of this design has been proven by achieving more than 6000 afterburner cycles, better than three times life requirements. The radial flameholders, nozzle secondary flaps and seals are also individually replaceable without having to disassemble the engine.
The engine-mounted dual-channel full authority digital engine control - or FADEC architecture provides the highest level of reliability and performance in a lightweight system. In addition, the FADEC provides advanced fault detection logic to identify and adapt to various system failures.
IHPTET technologies can reduce the F414 SFC by 4% and increase turbine life to 6,000 hours, providing a $2B savings in total ownership cost. These technologies could also be used to provide a 20% increase in thrust with a 2,000 hour turbine life. Improvements in component life and durability increase mean time between engine removals, leading to improved readiness and reduced maintenance cost. Two Stage, Forward Swept Fan with Blisk Rotors (first stage shown) increases airflow and pressure ratio 10% over the current three stage version, and reduces parts count, weight, and manufacturing costs. Laser shock peening and translation friction welded blade repair reduces the effects of foreign object damage and lowers repair costs. The Six Stage Compressor uses the latest 3-D aero and clearance control features to increase efficiency by 3%. Also included are ruggedized leading edges, 3-D compound blisk hubs, non-uniform vane spacing, and probabilistic design assessment to significantly increase durability and reduce high cycle fatigue. The Advanced High Pressure Turbine incorporates 3-D aero design, advanced cooling, and brush seals to increase efficiency by 2% and gas path temperature capability by 150°F with current blade materials.
The F414 engine underwent extensive development testing as part of the US Navy’s Engineering and Manufacturing Development program. Design effort was begun in January 1991. All major engine components were evaluated in full-scale rig tests prior to running the first test engine. These rig tests provided valuable time - as much as a year - to optimize the final component designs. The benefits were realized when the first F414 engine was tested in May 1993 and met all performance goals. The rig tests also helped to reduce development cycle time - the first engine was tested two and one-half years before first flight. This provided more time to find and fix problems during engine development, which reduced costs by minimizing design changes after production. By the time the F414 completed the Navy’s Engineering and Manufacturing Development program in 1998, it had accumulated more than 10 thousand test hours on 14 engines.
The F414 engine program was the first major Navy aeropropulsion test program conducted at AEDC as a part of the transition of workload from the Navy's engine test facilities. Testing of the F414 began at AEDC in October 1993, only six months after the first F414 was tested at sea level in GE's facilities in Lynn, Mass.
F414 testing at AEDC includes altitude performance, and functional and operability testing. AEDC testing of the F414 was focused on achievement of three specific program milestones: Preliminary Flight Qualification test in May 1995; Limited Production Qualification tests in September 1996; and Full Production Qualification tests in September 1997. Flight testing of the Super Hornet began in November 1995. To speed the F414 test data analysis process, a high-speed link was established with the Navy's facility in Trenton, N.J., allowing the Navy engineers to have "virtual presence" at AEDC, analyzing the data in virtually real time. The same data were displayed at both Trenton and AEDC, allowing the Navy to evaluate the test results and provide test direction much more quickly than using traditional practices.
Much of the success of the F414 development program has been due to its innovative management and design approach. The Navy formed more than 40 Integrated Product Development Teams with representatives from each critical function and discipline. These teams have been directly involved in the design, procurement and testing of the F414’s complex engine hardware. US Navy representatives have also been part of these teams so the contractors could benefit from the customer’s insight as they progressed. Co-location of teams was critical to success. Being physically close together greatly enhanced communication and allowed teams to operate more effectively.
The Integrated Product Development Team approach is paying off. With F414 engine development 70 percent complete, design, manufacturing, procurement, and test cycle time reductions of 20 to 60 percent were seen on many components. Hardware re-work and scrap costs had fallen dramatically. As an example, the first test engine required only 25% of the re-work budget compared to previous programs. Also noteworthy, about 80% of all hardware for the first test engine came from production sources. The number of design changes was about two-thirds less than the historical average. All major program milestones were on or ahead of schedule. The best example of benefits of Integrated Product Development was demonstrated by the Afterburner and Exhaust Nozzle Team. They designed, developed, and fabricated the first afterburner and exhaust nozzle assembly for full-scale engine testing in just 14 months. This saved the F414 program 17 months compared to previous military engine programs.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/f414.htm
The F414 engine, although a new design, is derived from earlier engines, primarily the F412 designed for the A-12. The F414 is an advanced derivative of the F/A-18's current F404 engine family. The F414 Engine is a low bypass turbofan engine, with augmented thrust provided by the afterburner. The engine consists of six modules as follows: 1) Fan, 2) Compressor, 3) Combustor, 4) High Pressure Turbine, 5) Low Pressure Turbine, 6) Afterburner. The engine is controlled by a Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) which controls thrust modulation, fuel delivery, and governing. The new engine has increased thrust, an improved thrust-to-weight ratio of 9:1 and a 3- to 4-percent cruise-specific fuel consumption improvement over the F404-GE-400 engine. The F414 engine was conceived during studies begun in 1991 to develop an upgraded F/A-18 fighter with significant improvements in range and operational capability. Designated the F/A-18E/F, the Advanced Hornet is 25 percent larger than the currently operational F/A-18 Hornet - the US Navy’s premier carrier based multi-role fighter. The F414 that powers it is a 22,000-pound thrust class augmented turbofan engine. The F414 engines provides 35 percent more thrust than the GE F404 engines used in the original F/A-18.
More importantly, the F414 provides significant thrust increases in areas of the flight envelope critical to a multi-mission aircraft like the F/A-18E/F. It has 30 to 40 percent more thrust in the heart of the flight envelope to give the F/A-18E/F the advantage during close-in aerial combat, 25 to 30 percent more thrust supersonically for high altitude air combat intercept missions and over 40 percent more thrust for low-altitude air-to-ground missions where high speeds to and from the target area greatly enhance aircraft survivability.
Advanced, but well proven technologies allow the F414 to stay the same length and maximum aft-end diameter of the original F404 while producing more thrust. The F414 fan provides 16 percent more airflow than the F404 fan, with improved bird strike and foreign object damage resistance features adopted from the F404/RM12 fan. Performance and reliability have been built into the new advanced power plant by carefully selecting the latest proven technology from the GE23A, F412, YF120 and other GE military and commercial engines.
In addition to proven technology, more than five million flight hours of F404 operational experience were factored into the F414 design. As a result, durability, reliability, and performance have been enhanced. The F414 has a 2000-hour hot section life and a 4000-hour specification life for all other engine rotating components and structure. Critical rotating disks, shafts and engine structure have been designed using GE’s robust, damage-tolerant design practice. This delivers a three-fold improvement in low cycle fatigue compared to previously used design methods.
The F414 configuration has been carefully planned for low-risk development by selectively using proven component technologies. Integrally bladed disks, also called blisks, are used in the second and third stages of the fan, and the first three stages of the seven-stage compressor. These blisks provide a 53-pound, or 24-kilogram, weight savings over more conventional blade and disk dovetail joints. With fewer parts, blisks also improve overall engine reliability. Using blisk technology, the F414 has 484 fewer parts in the fan and compressor than the F404.
A compact, lightweight, annular combustor with 30 thousand laser-drilled cooling holes significantly lowers combustor wall temperatures for longer life. Sophisticated manufacturing equipment makes this design very affordable. Highly-loaded single-stage, air-cooled high and low pressure turbines use GE’s latest single crystal alloys. Three dimensional viscous flow modeling helped increase low pressure turbine efficiency more than one percentage point over previous design methods. Thermal barrier coatings also enhance the durability of both turbines.
The F414 use GE’s advanced air-cooled radial flameholder and spraybar system in the augmentor. This will increase flameholder life substantially when compared to the current F404 design. Durability of this design has been proven by achieving more than 6000 afterburner cycles, better than three times life requirements. The radial flameholders, nozzle secondary flaps and seals are also individually replaceable without having to disassemble the engine.
The engine-mounted dual-channel full authority digital engine control - or FADEC architecture provides the highest level of reliability and performance in a lightweight system. In addition, the FADEC provides advanced fault detection logic to identify and adapt to various system failures.
IHPTET technologies can reduce the F414 SFC by 4% and increase turbine life to 6,000 hours, providing a $2B savings in total ownership cost. These technologies could also be used to provide a 20% increase in thrust with a 2,000 hour turbine life. Improvements in component life and durability increase mean time between engine removals, leading to improved readiness and reduced maintenance cost. Two Stage, Forward Swept Fan with Blisk Rotors (first stage shown) increases airflow and pressure ratio 10% over the current three stage version, and reduces parts count, weight, and manufacturing costs. Laser shock peening and translation friction welded blade repair reduces the effects of foreign object damage and lowers repair costs. The Six Stage Compressor uses the latest 3-D aero and clearance control features to increase efficiency by 3%. Also included are ruggedized leading edges, 3-D compound blisk hubs, non-uniform vane spacing, and probabilistic design assessment to significantly increase durability and reduce high cycle fatigue. The Advanced High Pressure Turbine incorporates 3-D aero design, advanced cooling, and brush seals to increase efficiency by 2% and gas path temperature capability by 150°F with current blade materials.
The F414 engine underwent extensive development testing as part of the US Navy’s Engineering and Manufacturing Development program. Design effort was begun in January 1991. All major engine components were evaluated in full-scale rig tests prior to running the first test engine. These rig tests provided valuable time - as much as a year - to optimize the final component designs. The benefits were realized when the first F414 engine was tested in May 1993 and met all performance goals. The rig tests also helped to reduce development cycle time - the first engine was tested two and one-half years before first flight. This provided more time to find and fix problems during engine development, which reduced costs by minimizing design changes after production. By the time the F414 completed the Navy’s Engineering and Manufacturing Development program in 1998, it had accumulated more than 10 thousand test hours on 14 engines.
The F414 engine program was the first major Navy aeropropulsion test program conducted at AEDC as a part of the transition of workload from the Navy's engine test facilities. Testing of the F414 began at AEDC in October 1993, only six months after the first F414 was tested at sea level in GE's facilities in Lynn, Mass.
F414 testing at AEDC includes altitude performance, and functional and operability testing. AEDC testing of the F414 was focused on achievement of three specific program milestones: Preliminary Flight Qualification test in May 1995; Limited Production Qualification tests in September 1996; and Full Production Qualification tests in September 1997. Flight testing of the Super Hornet began in November 1995. To speed the F414 test data analysis process, a high-speed link was established with the Navy's facility in Trenton, N.J., allowing the Navy engineers to have "virtual presence" at AEDC, analyzing the data in virtually real time. The same data were displayed at both Trenton and AEDC, allowing the Navy to evaluate the test results and provide test direction much more quickly than using traditional practices.
Much of the success of the F414 development program has been due to its innovative management and design approach. The Navy formed more than 40 Integrated Product Development Teams with representatives from each critical function and discipline. These teams have been directly involved in the design, procurement and testing of the F414’s complex engine hardware. US Navy representatives have also been part of these teams so the contractors could benefit from the customer’s insight as they progressed. Co-location of teams was critical to success. Being physically close together greatly enhanced communication and allowed teams to operate more effectively.
The Integrated Product Development Team approach is paying off. With F414 engine development 70 percent complete, design, manufacturing, procurement, and test cycle time reductions of 20 to 60 percent were seen on many components. Hardware re-work and scrap costs had fallen dramatically. As an example, the first test engine required only 25% of the re-work budget compared to previous programs. Also noteworthy, about 80% of all hardware for the first test engine came from production sources. The number of design changes was about two-thirds less than the historical average. All major program milestones were on or ahead of schedule. The best example of benefits of Integrated Product Development was demonstrated by the Afterburner and Exhaust Nozzle Team. They designed, developed, and fabricated the first afterburner and exhaust nozzle assembly for full-scale engine testing in just 14 months. This saved the F414 program 17 months compared to previous military engine programs.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/f414.htm
Rahul Singh
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Be realistic! Nobody is going to give you the tech they developed and re-developed over five decades. ToT of the hot section will be minimal/close to nothing.
Well TVC is not just only about the engine, it is basically an additional control surface of the airplane and will require modification in FCS, leading to re-certification in some fields. IMO neither ADA nor IAF is willing to spend that much time on that. All they are looking for now is getting re-engined MK-2 developed and inducted. Later on during MK-3 with JV Kaveri they might look for a TVC equipped Kaveri.
neo29
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we will be buying either ej200 or ge414. chances are 99 engines with 100 more later. the total induction of lca is projected to be 200 to 220. so its logically to assume that kaveri will be never be with lca. they will buy either of these engines for all the projected number for lca's.
kaveri is developed with snecma to be installed in the NGFA and will be ready only in 2016-17.
kaveri is developed with snecma to be installed in the NGFA and will be ready only in 2016-17.
Tamil
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If we buy 99 engines means not 99 Fighters, it allows 2/3 fighters only b'cos rest are used for reserves. and even HF-Tejes is first to IOC, FOC in coming year or so. after that the orderd jets to be produced. before that the Kaveri engines will be ready in 3-4 years so conformation of Kaveri Engines into HF-Tejes is confirmed for MK-II later stages...
neo29
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if what u say its true, LCA mk 2 1st squadron will be ready by 2015 or 2016. kaveri will be ready by 2015 only , its been already said by kaveri and snecma.If we buy 99 engines means not 99 Fighters, it allows 2/3 fighters only b'cos rest are used for reserves. and even HF-Tejes is first to IOC, FOC in coming year or so. after that the orderd jets to be produced. before that the Kaveri engines will be ready in 3-4 years so conformation of Kaveri Engines into HF-Tejes is confirmed for MK-II later stages...
thats pretty late.
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Rahul Singh
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Fighter jets like LCA with top notch airframe is supposed to have three times the life of a turbo-fan and in order to exhaust all of its airframe life, theoretically, it will need two more engines. This is where JV Kaveri will get her share of play in LCA.
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http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/01/typhoon-tour-part-1-eurojet-heats-up.html
Eurojet Heats Up For Tejas
...Discussions between the Indian government and Eurojet are currently at the Q&A phase -- a period post-RFP, where the buyer smoothens out details and calls upon the vendor to explain, clarify or expand anything put forth in their technical bid. A few days ago, Eurojet received a set of 32 such questions from the ADA (Tenter says he is surprised there weren't more), out of which 26 are associated with engineering aspects, while the remaining six pertain to transfer of technology issues. Eurojet faces formidable competition to power the LCA from the American General Electric F-414-400.
OK, now here's the juice. According to Tenter and his team, for the Tejas to be able to take in an EJ200 engine, the engine will need "minor" modifications. These include some changing to the mounting assembly, a different hydraulic pump and an additional generator pack for starters. In addition, engine interfaces might need changes depending on how the LCA is configured. All in all, Eurojet believes its tailor-made EJ200 for the LCA can be ready-- certification tests and all -- in two years flat. Officials at the company point out that one of the biggest downers for their competition is that the F-414-400's intake interface assembly is markedly larger than the F-404 (and, thus, the LCA) and its selection would therefore imply some very serious modifications to the LCA's centre fuselage and intake architecture (in addition to the use of a cone director for airflow). Eurojet insists that the EJ200's installation will require absolutely no airframe and intake changes to the LCA. Both contentions remain unconfirmed at this point.
Even though the LCA new-engine competition and the MMRCA competition are linked for Eurojet (the Eurofighter Typhoon is powered by the EJ200), the company has chosen to keep both campaigns strictly separate.
"When we demonstrated the engine's performance to a team from HAL and DRDO in November last year, they were amazed that there was no thrust droop in the EJ200. The engine is designed to compensate for thrust droop," says Tenter, confident that this and a rapid-fire list of other ostensible unique selling points make the Eurojet a frontrunner in the race.
Eurojet Heats Up For Tejas
...Discussions between the Indian government and Eurojet are currently at the Q&A phase -- a period post-RFP, where the buyer smoothens out details and calls upon the vendor to explain, clarify or expand anything put forth in their technical bid. A few days ago, Eurojet received a set of 32 such questions from the ADA (Tenter says he is surprised there weren't more), out of which 26 are associated with engineering aspects, while the remaining six pertain to transfer of technology issues. Eurojet faces formidable competition to power the LCA from the American General Electric F-414-400.
OK, now here's the juice. According to Tenter and his team, for the Tejas to be able to take in an EJ200 engine, the engine will need "minor" modifications. These include some changing to the mounting assembly, a different hydraulic pump and an additional generator pack for starters. In addition, engine interfaces might need changes depending on how the LCA is configured. All in all, Eurojet believes its tailor-made EJ200 for the LCA can be ready-- certification tests and all -- in two years flat. Officials at the company point out that one of the biggest downers for their competition is that the F-414-400's intake interface assembly is markedly larger than the F-404 (and, thus, the LCA) and its selection would therefore imply some very serious modifications to the LCA's centre fuselage and intake architecture (in addition to the use of a cone director for airflow). Eurojet insists that the EJ200's installation will require absolutely no airframe and intake changes to the LCA. Both contentions remain unconfirmed at this point.
Even though the LCA new-engine competition and the MMRCA competition are linked for Eurojet (the Eurofighter Typhoon is powered by the EJ200), the company has chosen to keep both campaigns strictly separate.
"When we demonstrated the engine's performance to a team from HAL and DRDO in November last year, they were amazed that there was no thrust droop in the EJ200. The engine is designed to compensate for thrust droop," says Tenter, confident that this and a rapid-fire list of other ostensible unique selling points make the Eurojet a frontrunner in the race.
Agantrope
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Yeah absolutely. We atleast need an engine to survive i the future era if there was an sanction. Engine life will normally 1/3 the life of AC. So we need to replace the engine regularly, if we are opting for EJ200, we cant do the replacement every now and then. No Kaveri is needed in that scenario. A thrust in the range of F414 or little higher will do the trick
Rahul Singh
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Minor correction. First navel prototype NP-1 will be a two seater.
----------------------------
Look at the nose. The nose air probe got four small antennas attached much like F-35.
----------------------------
Look at the nose. The nose air probe got four small antennas attached much like F-35.
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Rahul Singh
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Bad is that as of now IAF plans calls for using LCA-T as a pure trainer.
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