ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[RajeevKr]

I think for MMRCA deal is off the radar of GOI for some time now. I am seeing that GOI has stopped mentioning MMRCA for filling up required numbers at IAF.

"GOVERNMENT OF INDIA
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
RAJYA SABHA
UNSTARRED QUESTION NO-1429
ANSWERED ON-18.12.2013
Shortage of fighter aircrafts
1429 . SHRI MOTILAL VORA

(a) whether it is a fact that the Indian Air Force needs 300 new aircrafts;

(b) if so, the steps being taken by Government to meet this requirement;

(c) whether it is also a fact that the Indian Air Force is using obsolete techniques for repair and regular testing of the aircrafts due to which 40 per cent aircrafts do not remain air-worthy;

(d) whether 70 to 80 per cent aircrafts would become air-worthy by using modern techniques; and

(e) if so, whether Government would use modern techniques for the optimum utilisation of the aircrafts available with the Air Force?
ANSWER
(SHRI A.K. ANTONY)
MINISTER OF DEFENCE

(a) to (e): The Government constantly reviews the security environment and ensures that the IAF is fully equipped to meet the security challenges. The IAF is in the process of modernizing its fleet by procuring various aircrafts including the Sukhoi-30 MKI and the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft. In addition, existing fleets of aircraft such as Mirage-2000, Jaguar and MiG-29 are being upgraded as per requirements.

IAF inventory is mix of vintage and new generation aircraft, system and equipment. In maintenance of vintage and new generation inventory, the technology & repair schemes recommended by the Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) are applied. In addition to this, IAF has also incorporated contemporary techniques of repair and testing of equipment, as a substitute of older repair schemes / equipment. All the aircraft declared serviceable by IAF, are airworthy.

******"
This augurs well for LCA programme if it is able to deliver and keep timelines.

 

[p2prada]

What is the SFC of m88 under full militiary thrust and optimum conditions vis ai vis the F 404 ? Anybody got any data?

Wiki has it.
Snecma M88 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

F-414 is still a state secret. Figures for F-404 are available on wiki instead.

 

[cobra commando]

More organized approach could've got LCA faster: DRDO official


More organized approach could've got LCA faster: DRDO official - The Times of India

 

[makmohan]

Didnt know where to post this..

Hal and the tag of "Screwdriver company" | idrw.org

:banghead:

 

[ersakthivel]

Didnt know where to post this..

Hal and the tag of "Screwdriver company" | idrw.org

:banghead:

Then how does HAL build both the Su-30 MKI and ALH successfully(ALH has significant export orders as well)?

Hoe did HAL build and flight test more than a dozen tejas cutting edge 4.5th gen fighter from research and development stage 2500 times with zero crash record?

How did SUKHOI order 64 sets of mission computer and avionics from HAL for russian airforce's Su-30 SM?

How come dassault and US ambassadors alone find fault with HAL, while ADA, IAF and UA (which has given orders for many ALH), and Sukhoi did not know about HAL's inefficiency?

Recently HAL has delivere an un manned space capsule to ISRO, Doesn't ISRO knows HAL tech is bad? then why did they give order to them?

I have posted these comments in the above story,

 

[ersakthivel]

So from indranilroy's Post

Total fuel: 2 X 1200 ltr tanks and about 2600 kg of internal fuel = approx. 4600 kg

1. SFC for military thrust = approx. 84 (kg/kN-hr) .
2. Maximum military thrust = approx. 54 kN.
3. Therefore, the rate of fuel consumption at this speed = approx. 54 kN * 84 kg/(KN-hr) = approx. 4536 kg/hr.

So Flying hour is >2 Hours and Ferry Range about 1700 KMs under Cruise Condition ...and Endurance with maximum Speed means only one Hour



I think He was correct about 1700KM range ( 2hour in the Air ) is with the 2x1200ltr tanks

The Beta Coefficient...: Search results for lca

Some interesting statements on combat range of tejas in different profiles, presented by Vivek Ahuja

Low altitude air space penetration flight profile (4x 250 kg bombs, fuel max internal and all available external)combat radius of 700 Km,

high altitude PGM attack profile (2 LGBs , all available external and internal fuel)- a combat radius of 1200 Km,

HAL gives a radius of action up to 500 Km for tejas, but does not specifies the fuel or weapon combo along with flight altitude,

Mirage-2000 has a fuel fraction of around 30 percent similar to tejas,

So I think there won't be any significant difference combat range between the two fighters if similar altitude and roles are assigned with optimum load capacity for each fighter,

needs some clarification as well,

Hope you are following vivek Ahuja's posts in BR regarding tejas range, it is very detailed and will remove many misconceptions on the issue,

SO it is not whether the fighter is twin engined or single engined which determines the range, but fuel fraction and drag, lift to drag ratio at cruising speed which determines the range,

You can go to F-16 Xl vs F-16 comparison which throws light on the excellent Lift to drag ratio of the cranked delta wing which enables the much higher wing area F-16 XL to have a 40 percent advantage over the lower wing area cropped delta F-16 .
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-16ef-xl.htm

The F-16XL aircraft were built by General Dynamics as prototypes for a derivative fighter evaluation program conducted by the Air Force between 1982 and 1985.

The aircraft were developed from basic F-16 airframes, with the most notable difference is the delta (cranked arrow) wing which give the aircraft a greater range because of increased fuel capacity in the wing tanks, and a larger load capability due to increased wing area.

The F-16XL was able to take off and land in two thirds of the distance required by the F-16A. It was capable of speeds of 90 knots greater than the F-16A at sea level and had a 125% greater range than an F-16A with the same payload.

In February 1980 General Dynamics proposed the Supersonic Cruise and Maneuvering Program (SCAMP). The final configuration became known as the F-16XL (later designated the F-16E), which displayed an excellent combination of reduced supersonic wave drag, utilization of vortex lift for transonic and low-speed maneuvers, low structural weight, and good transonic performance. In March 1981 the US Air Force announced an effort to develope a new multi-role strike strike fighter.


A radical redesign of the F-16A, the XL was a supersonic cruise demonstrator with a cranked arrow delta wing optimised for that flight regime. The aircraft was a major technical success, with two demonstrators eventually flying. Although supersonic cruise without afterburner was an original goal of the F-16XL program, the aircraft did never achieved this feat.

The highly swept inboard wing section of this aircraft produced substantial vortex lift at supersonic speeds, while also improving instantaneous turn rate and extending the 9G manoeuvre envelope well above Mach 1.

An additional benefit of the new configuration was a substantial increase in internal fuel capacity, providing a 120% improvement in combat radius performance.

Extensive tests for SCAMP took place in Langley facilities, including the Unitary Plan Wind Tunnel, the 7- by 10-Foot High-Speed Tunnel, the 16-Foot Transonic Dynamics Tunnel, the Full-Scale Tunnel, the DMS, the Spin Tunnel, and a helicopter drop model. During these tests, a team led by researcher Joseph L. Johnson, Jr. identified low-speed stability and control issues that required modifying the wing apex with a rounded planform.

Research on the SCAMP configuration by Langley researchers identified numerous advanced concepts for improved performance, including the application of vortex flaps on the highly swept leading edge for improved low-speed and transonic performance, automatic spin prevention concepts, and optimized wings for supersonic cruise.

The final configuration became known as the F-16XL (later designated the F-16E), which displayed an excellent combination of reduced supersonic wave drag, utilization of vortex lift for transonic and low-speed maneuvers, low structural weight, and good transonic performance.

The F-16XL flutter envelope was cleared in the 16-Foot Transonic Dynamics Tunnel by Charles L. Ruhlin without significant problems.

it lost out to f-15 is another story,

tejas too is a cranked arrow wing form which has a much larger wing area per kg of load carried than f-16 Xl,

 

[ersakthivel]

F-16 XL lost out to f-15 is another story, It is due to the reasons stated below, which has nothing to do with it's cranked arrow wing form(which was followed on f-22 with a diamond shape as well)

Unfortunately, the interest in supersonic cruise was replaced by an urgency to develop a dual role fighter with ground strike capability.

The F-16XL suffered the fate of many pioneering aircraft before their time. The F-16E dual role lost out in a flyoff against MDC's bigger and more capable F-15E Strike Eagle, thus ending all prospects for its eventual production. Although the relatively large wing of the F-16XL carried a significant amount of weapons, the Air Force ultimately selected the F-15E in 1983 for developmental funding and terminated interest in the F-16XL.

Many observers attributed its demise to a political strategy played by the USAF, to prevent an older generation airframe derivative from being used by legislators as an excuse to kill off or postpone the ATF program. Equipped with Amraam, higher thrust engines and new radar, the F-16XL could cover a large part of the role envisaged for the ATF at substantially lower unit and program costs. As an older generation airframe however its infrared and radar signatures are substantial and this would greatly reduce its effectiveness

So the wing form allows tejas to have same excellent capabilities of f-16 XL, including a decent range I hope,

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=...sQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=F-16XL vs F-16&f=false

http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/3.45579?journalCode=ja

the concepts demonstrated by F-16 XL will significantly impact all the future fighter designs

 

[Twinblade]

Didnt know where to post this..

Hal and the tag of "Screwdriver company" | idrw.org

:banghead:

About the BAE spares saga which is cited as an example of HAL's incompetence: The parts were pulled from new kits due to delays by BAE in setting up the spares infrastructure. The US ambassador visited HAL in 2008-2009, BAE was imposed with Liquidated Damages for the same in 2010.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

 

[rvjpheonix]

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas Mk-II preliminary design to be ready by next month


By Anantha Krishnan M
Express News Service
Bangalore: The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is giving the final touches to the preliminary design of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk-II, scheduled to be completed by the end of March. An official confirmed to Express on Saturday that the detailed design phase of LCA Mk-2 would begin in the second quarter of 2014. A separate project team from ADA and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), dedicated to the upgraded version, is currently undertaking daily reviews to get the first cut of the design out by next month.
The main scope of Tejas Mk-2 programme is to have the engine changed from the current GE F-404 to GE F-414. A development contract for eight engines for the preliminary design phase has already been signed with GE, with the critical design review already been completed at its Boston facility. The Mk-II fighter will have OBOGS (Onboard Oxygen Generating System), which is being developed by Defence Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory (DEBEL), a Bangalore-based Defence Research and Development Organisation lab. "Currently, the ground development is over for OBOGS and the systems are undergoing various stages of qualification process," an official who wished not to be named, said.
Tejas Mk-II will have a unified electronic warfare system aimed at detecting and ducking enemy radar and later jamming it. "It is likely to be the most maintenance-friendly aircraft in its class and all equipment onboard can be easily removed or re-installed smoothly. The Tejas MK-I has some scope for improving the maintenance aspects, which is being addressed in Mk-II," the official said.
Her promises to make Tejas Mk-II free from any kind of dead weight. "The Mk-I has some dead weight in the form of lead plates installed to balance the aircraft which will disappear in Mk-II. It will also have considerable amount of extra fuel capability in operational clean configuration," he added.
The point performance of Mk-II will be higher than Mk-I, which means the aircraft will have better rate of climb, transonic acceleration and turn rates. The new version will have an in-flight refueling system and the ADA-HAL combine is planning to take a new route for Mk-II production. "We are going for the DFMA (Design for Manufacturing and Assembly) technique for the production of Mk-II. The DFMA concept will be used for the first time for an Indian aviation programme, which will decrease the production time and cost, also increase the quality quotient," the official said.
With the avionics systems changing at a faster rate leading to technology obsolescence, the makers of Tejas have an uphill task of making the fighter contemporary even in the 2025s. "We will straight away get on to the production phase after the prototypes complete the required test flights. The The Indian Air Force (IAF) support is a huge factor for the Mk-2 project with some cost being shared by them. It shows the confidence the user has in us. Tejas will be the mainstay for IAF in the long run," he said.
The Mk-II project was sanctioned in 2009 at a cost about of Rs 2400 crore and post-design finalisation phase, two prototypes are set to roll out from the HAL hangars. The IAF has committed a minimum of squadrons of Tejas Mk-2.

 

[ersakthivel]

So removal of lead plates in mk-1 for mk-2 means there won't be significant increase at least for the air force version due to the lengthened air frame, No PVs , TDs means faster induction into service.

Higher internal fuel loads and fully integrated Ew suit along with improvements in STR ,ITR, TWR ,climb rate, range, and weapon load makes it even better with no complaints from air force,

kota Harinaraya was reported to have said that new indigenous engine program for Mk-2 is also underway,

most possibly he could have meant the k-10 effort,

 

[proud_indian]

 

[SajeevJino]

.


From above the Truth ..AMCA Prototype in 2022 ..Induction in 2030

 

[Twinblade]

.


From above the Truth ..AMCA Prototype in 2022 ..Induction in 2030

The trouble with Prasun is, he is never available to eat his words. Right click and save this image, would come in handy when he is proven wrong.

 

[proud_indian]

The trouble with Prasun is, he is never available to eat his words. Right click and save this image, would come in handy when he is proven wrong.

don't you think this is rather realistic time frame?
by the way this poster he fetched from the defexpo.

 

[Twinblade]

don't you think this is rather realistic time frame?

Contrary to all timelines issued by all agencies involved

by the way this poster he fetched from the defexpo.

He pulled it out of the article he wrote for force india magazine.

 

[proud_indian]

Contrary to all timelines issued by all agencies involved



He pulled it out of the article he wrote for force india magazine.

"The table below, based on data released by the IAF HQ and ADA, gives the actual estimated service-induction timelines for the Tejas Mk1 and Tejas Mk2 MRCAs. The Hon. RM A K Antony will therefore be well-advised to refer to this table the next time the MoD wants to blurt out the kind of notional IOC/FOC timelines that have been announced since February 2011! "

this is what he says.

 

[Twinblade]

"The table below, based on data released by the IAF HQ and ADA, gives the actual estimated service-induction timelines for the Tejas Mk1 and Tejas Mk2 MRCAs. The Hon. RM A K Antony will therefore be well-advised to refer to this table the next time the MoD wants to blurt out the kind of notional IOC/FOC timelines that have been announced since February 2011! "

this is what he says.

..and ? He is known to be a class A bull****er. Here's the actual source for his realistic timelines, an article which was written at last aeroindia, before any of MoD, ADA or HAL issued any production timelines.:-
The Light Combat Aircraft will attain IOC this year and FOC by 2015

The only thing force india magazine is good for is for occasional interviews.

 

[Sea Eagle]

Their was a seminar by a DRDO scientist Dr. Prabhakar he basically specializes in
trajectory optimization and has
developed algorithms for the same... Here are few things he highlighted :
1)IIR guidance was designed by RCI
however, Indian designed IR
detector(FOCAL PLANAR ARRAY )
couldn't work satisfactorily in harsh
heat conditions of rajasthan hence
FPA from safran(france) were
procured for NAG, -MCT(mercury
cadmium telluride)
the upgraded IIR uses cooled TI
2)india was the first country in the
world to have successfully launched
an IRBM(prithvi 3) from surface ship
3) trishul missile was a success from
technology point of view and many
of it's lessons were applied in
MRSAM project
4)LCA's x-band AESA radar is well
underway and was recently sent
abroad for a certain critical test(test
facility for which isn't available in
the country ).T/R modules of the
AESA are not only indigenously
designed but also indigenously
manufactured by astra microwave
corp Hyderabad
He also revealed that BVR trials of
LCA will commence in june 2014and
told that the reason why they didn't
integrate indigenous AESA into LSP -8
etc was because they didn't want any
more delays due to indigenous AESA,
their UTMOST priority at present is
stick to the schedule and successfully
accomplish the parameters for FOC

 

[Twinblade]

Their was a seminar by a DRDO scientist Dr. Prabhakar he basically specializes in
trajectory optimization and has
developed algorithms for the same... Here are few things he highlighted :
1)IIR guidance was designed by RCI
however, Indian designed IR
detector(FOCAL PLANAR ARRAY )
couldn't work satisfactorily in harsh
heat conditions of rajasthan hence
FPA from safran(france) were
procured for NAG, -MCT(mercury
cadmium telluride)
the upgraded IIR uses cooled TI
2)india was the first country in the
world to have successfully launched
an IRBM(prithvi 3) from surface ship
3) trishul missile was a success from
technology point of view and many
of it's lessons were applied in
MRSAM project
4)LCA's x-band AESA radar is well
underway and was recently sent
abroad for a certain critical test(test
facility for which isn't available in
the country ).T/R modules of the
AESA are not only indigenously
designed but also indigenously
manufactured by astra microwave
corp Hyderabad
He also revealed that BVR trials of
LCA will commence in june 2014and
told that the reason why they didn't
integrate indigenous AESA into LSP -8
etc was because they didn't want any
more delays due to indigenous AESA,
their UTMOST priority at present is
stick to the schedule and successfully
accomplish the parameters for FOC

Source ? Were you there in person ?