ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[ersakthivel]

I have made a summary of my posts in this thread and tejas mk-2 thread and posted it on

bharath Karnard'snews article on "Stop wasteful military deals " in The indian express news servcice,

http://www.newindianexpress.com/opi.../article1866740.ece?pageNumber=4#commentsList

he in turn posted my comments on a separate blog entry,


Technically proficient value-add to 'Stop wasteful military deals' | Security Wise

Technically proficient value-add to 'Stop wasteful military deals'
Posted on November 10, 2013 by Bharat Karnad
Reproduced here is the in-depth, technically proficient, response by @ersakthivel published in the New Indian Express to my "Stop wasteful military deals". I am so much better informed now after ingesting his incisive comments.

You can read it in the above link, a portion of it I am quoting below,
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Mirage 2000s with the IAF have a clean config RCS of 1.2 meters or more,

So even after launching all BVRs IAF Mirage-2000 (or any other fighter presently in service with IAF including SU-30 MKI) with it's 1.2 sq meter RCS will present a big enough target for the powerful PLAF SU-30 radars to track and launch.

But after the lunch of all long range BVRs Tejas will have a much smaller 0.2 meter RCS .

So it will not be visible to the PLAF flanker 's radars from from even medium BVR range forget about long range BVR s.

SO While PLAF flanker with a 5 meter clean config RCS will be visible to the Tejas fire control radars even in clean config, tejas won't be be visible to the PLAF flanker fire control radars even in clean config,

SO the BVRs fired by PLAF flankers won't be given mid course update by PLAF fire control radars,

And if PLAF flanker tries to jam tejas mk-1s radar using ESM this jamming alone would be used by tejas to guide the BVR on PLAF flanker without even using it's radars.

So PLAF flanker vs IAF Mirage-2000 and PAF F-16 blk 52 Vs Mirage 2000

will be very different cup of tea compared to

PLAF flanker vs IAF tejas
and
PAF F-16 blk 52 VsTejas

Even Tejas mk-1 has 10 percent more TWR than the Mirage-2000 and a more powerful MMR radar with 150 km tracking range,

But Tejas mk-2 will have a difficult to locate and jam ASEA radar along with 20 percent more TWR than the Tejas mk-1, So it will be unbeatable by any legacy fighter on PLAF and PAF fleet , if we strictly use the specs as guidance.

So the following analogy applies ,

1.A clean config RCS of 0.3 (not really known , but lets take the statement that it will have a third of Mirage -2000 RCS at face value),

2. Six air to air missiles with 0.5 X 6 = 3 sq meters will give an RCS of 3.5 meter max to LCA mk-1 in lightly loaded quick response air to air interception role .

If you do the same calculation for PLAF flanker then it's clean config RCS of 5 sq meters + 3 sq meters(same 6 X 0.5 sq meter load out) will give a cumulative RCS of minimum 8 sq meters for PLAF flanker.

So even if PLAF flanker has 30 percent more radome dia giving it a more powerful radar it will present 2.5 times more RCS to the 30 percent smaller dia radar of the LCA Tejas, So in practical terms the big radome dia of PLAF flanker will hold no significant advantage over much smaller RCS of tejas.

So tracking by both the radars may happen simultaneously in real time with no significant advantage for either one of them,

But what happens after tracking is very interesting,

Say a squadron of 20 tejas fighters fire all their 0.5 sq meter BVRs on a squadron of 20 PLAF flanker, and both start evading maneuvers ,

What happens after that?

The RCS for tejas will reduce ten fold to just 0.3 sq meter , but for PLAF flanker it will reduce by just 40 percent to 5 sq meters,

So in theory 20 tejas fighters will vanish from the big powerful radar of PLAF flanker because no PLAF flanker radar can pick up a sub 0.3 meter(clean config RCS) Tejas target from any distance greater than say 50 Km.

So how will the PLAF flanker give mid course guidance to it's BVRs to home in on Tejas ?

The 120 KM range BVrs have their own active seekers , but they can detect tejas only from a closer distance of say 18 Km.

Simply there is no way PLAF flanker can guide it's 120 Km or 240 Km BVR on tejas in this circumstances.

But still all the 20 tejas will see the big 5 sq meter clean config PLAF flanker on their radar screen as big as foot ball. So with their discreet ASEA radars(in MK-2 , and will definitely come in as MLU in MK-1 as well) they will continue to guide them on the much bigger RCS PLAF flanker.

So there is no guarantee that the bigger PLAF flanker radar will look first, fire first, fill first at all times when it comes to air to air BVR combat?

That is the reason 4.5th gen fighters are designed with lower RCS , to minimize tracking by opposing fighter fleet's X band fire control radars.

If you use lifecycle costing and MLU costing along with maintanenace cost we can field two or three tejas mk-2 for every single PLAF flanker. SO on the first day fleet vs fleet battles each PLAF flanker will have an unenviable job of jamming all the difficult to jam ASEA radars while continuing to be visible to Tejas ASEA radars as targets,

But Tejas mk-2 in clean config can not be tracked and targeted by PLAF flanker X band fire control radars from any distance greater than 50 Km, But tejas mk-2 will detect any PLAF flanker in clean config from distances in excess of 150 Km.

it is an undeniable physical fact.

If stealth external weapon bays are introduced on Tejas mk-2(it is being done in Hornets and F-15 and it can be done on all other fighters) then any PLAF flanker X band fire control radar won't see Tejas mk-2 from any distance greater than 50 Km
For more of the same discussion , visit,

For more of the same discussion , visit,
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/43717-ada-lca-tejas-iv-94.html

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[TrueSpirit1]

@ersakthivel to your passion, fighting spirit, zeal & commitment to a great cause. We need more such people.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Keep up the good work @@ersakthivel .. !

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel to your passion, fighting spirit, zeal & commitment to a great cause. We need more such people.

Keep up the good work @@ersakthivel .. !

Thanks for the support, Kunal and Truespirit,

 

[Kyubi]

Thanks for the support, Kunal and Truespirit,

Seriously mate ur truly kick ass !!!

 

[ersakthivel]

Seriously mate ur truly kick ass !!!

it is good to counter misnformation campaign against tejas carried out with ulterior motives to belittle the indian achievement and scupper it's future export potential.

SO in case you are any other member of the form happen to come across such pieces you can simply copy a part of info from this thread and rebut it,

till now I have done it on many other links as well,


Undermining national security - The New Indian Express

The Tejas Debate Continues | TKS' Tales

http://idrw.org/?p=30938

and in many other IDRW and broadsword , and livefist articles,

Strangely after I post my comments all beating down of tejas stops,

No one counters the claim there and everything falls silent,

I visit those pages many times , but no one has ever conclusively rebutted my comments till date,

So it is obvious 90 percent of the guys who write articles ,

and most of the people who make all knowing comments ,on tejas

are not aware of the aerodynamic principles and tech breakthroughs,

achieved for indian military aviation industry through this much maligned program,

because people are ignorant of principles like RSS fly by wire,

aerodynamic refinement of cranked delta platform

, record low clean config frontal RCS

, the weight saving effects of composites on giving it a decent thrust to weight ratio,

the low wing loading which gives tejas ability to take off with decent loads even in high himalayan airfields,

also the high lift to drag ratio provided by low drag(in wave and interference segments of drag) high lift ,

high agility design, which is the oxygen in todays high Instantaneous turn rate close combat battles,

where a sudden turning ability gives Tejas the ability to engage enemy fighters,

with HMD enabled high off bore WVR missiles against which the enemy fighter has very low reaction time,


The high instantaneous turn rate is the strong point of cranked delta with low wing loading airframe

 

[Shaitan]

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Though I feel @ersakthivel overestimates LCA at times he certainly makes some good points and has pretty good technical knowledge also..so I would humbly request @Singh and other admins to consider upgrading his statues to think tank, defence analyst or something like that..

 

[makmohan]

Tejas MK-2 and Beyond | idrw.org

With Successful completion of Initial operational clearance (IOC) -2 . Tejas MK-1 is all set to enter Indian air force and HAL is also set to deliver first SP-1 and SP-2 aircrafts to Indian air force by mid of next year . 2014 like 2013 will be a busy year for DRDO and HAL , DRDO has to test and validate 6 key points before Final Operational Clearance (FOC) for Tejas MK-1 is granted by end of 2014 .
6 key points for FOC includes firing of Russian-made 23 mm GSH gun , although Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 is reliable weapon and has been used on many variants of Mig-21 ,23 and Mig-27 which Indian air force also operates , But experts believe that test and validation of twin-barrelled 23 mm auto cannon can throw some surprises on its own
Another key Induction and validation will require Integration of Beyond-visual-range missile (BVR ) missile . Its official now Israeli duo of Derby and Python-5 BVR missiles will be main BVR Missiles on Tejas MK-1 and MK-2 , Home Grown Astra BVR will also join in when it is ready . Russian R-73 which is a WVR missile has already been integrated into Tejas MK-1 , It is likely due to dispute with Russians over providing of source code for R-73 has lead to Procurement of Israeli BVR missiles .
2014 will also see actual work on Tejas MK-2 to start , ADA and HAL who have completed advance design work of Tejas MK-2 are all set to work on first Prototype and plans to roll-out of first Tejas MK-2 might happen at the same time FOC is granted to Tejas MK-1 mostly in 2014 year end or early 2015 , But first test flights might only happen in end of 2015 .
Tejas MK-2 will bring in new challenges to ADA and HAL and requires extensive work to be done on the Mk-2, But with Experience workforce on Tejas Project , DRDO is planning to reduce test program of Tejas MK-2 to two years before it is ready for Production in 2018 . Indian air force plans to buy 4 squadrons of Tejas MK-2 and post 2020 purchase and induction of non stealth fighter is not exciting IAF much to place more orders for Tejas MK-2 .
But DRDO sensing an opportunity is planning for a stealth optimised Tejas MK-3 post 2020 and also has suggested Experimental Drone Tejas to act has technological demonstrator for AURA UCAV project , but talks of MK-3 is still on paper and IAF and MOD still have not cleared any such projects .

 

[cobra commando]

Tejas is a contemporary
aircraft: ADA Programme
Director


Tejas is a contemporary aircraft: ADA Programme Director - SP's Aviation

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This is important ..

talks of MK-3 is still on paper and IAF and MOD still have not cleared any such projects .

 

[WMD]

Tejas is a contemporary aircraft: ADA Programme Director

To a question on what was the most difficult part in 'Tejas', he said designing and developing "the high angle of attack" and that the team developed its own methodology. This has considerably enhanced the combat performance of the aircraft. With flight control systems, the aircraft maintains an angle and in Tejas the team has designed till 24 degrees, while the aircraft in tests has performed upto 22 degrees. "We expect it to be at 26 degrees for the full operational clearance (FOC)." The maximum degrees in a fighter aircraft is said to be 28 degrees and the aircraft is likely to get there.

Tejas is a contemporary aircraft: ADA Programme Director - SP's Aviation

 

[Twinblade]

Tejas is a contemporary aircraft: ADA Programme Director



Tejas is a contemporary aircraft: ADA Programme Director - SP's Aviation

People who talked to test pilots were told the same thing. 22 is achieved, 24 is IAF requirement, 26 to 28 is what it will finally achieve.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Though I feel @ersakthivel overestimates LCA at times he certainly makes some good points and has pretty good technical knowledge also..so I would humbly request @Singh and other admins to consider upgrading his statues to think tank, defence analyst or something like that..

I second this.

No one on this forum has gone into greater depth of aeronautics' technical & functional aspects, the way he has. When a query is posed, most contributors would simply leave a one-liner or post articles without highlighting the relevant parts of it but @ersakthivel leaves no stones unturned in answering questions & clarifying doubts. There maybe a couple of posters here who have more knowledge than him, are more articulate/coherent, or maybe, possess better command at language, but absolutely no one has really put in as much effort & gone that deep while analyzing developments by conjuring up air-combat scenarios & theoretical calculations. One cannot be without a folly so he may come across as slightly mulish at times but his counter arguments (along with detailed examples) & his knack of catching outright baseless propaganda needs no introduction.

He excels at sharing & his hunger regarding grasping of technical know-how is par-excellence. Such spirit definitely deserves a

 

[ersakthivel]

Right way to put it is,

"tejas may achieve 28 deg AOA for carefree operation by the pilot"

And beyond 28 deg it may may have restricted operational profile like Grippen or any other fighter,

where the pilot will be allowed to override max AOA limit and will be allowed very restricted flight operation like any other modern fly by wire fighter,

As far as the air frame is concerned in NAL research paper which I have posted many times in this thread clearly states

for the cranked delt wing form of tejas Cl max peaks at 35 deg AOA, SO till 35 deg AOA max lift coefficient increase so no problem with wing lift at those acute AOAs which is typical of deltas(high alpha , high speed performance)

And it's control surfaces retain fair bit of control of the fighter with augumentation even at 30 deg AOA

However how much it is cleared will be known only in FOC. But there are no design limitations as such.

because most of the fighters may advertise 50 deg 100 deg and many fancy degree of AOAs ,'

But the reality is unless it has thrust vectoring it can not do any worthwhile combat maneuver with any meaningful aerodynamic efficiency of the wing,

Even with thrust vectoring these AOAs can not be used for combat operations at a higher kinematic state.because at these extreme AOAs the fighter rapidly loses energy and the advantage it has by using these AOAs is limited by the loss of speed and kinetic energy.



So to know the full AOA specs of tejas we have to wait longer after FOC till all the experiments with LSP-6 gets over, which is a norm in all fighter programs of RSS fly by wire era

 

[ersakthivel]

Though I feel @ersakthivel overestimates LCA at times he certainly makes some good points and has pretty good technical knowledge also..so I would humbly request @Singh and other admins to consider upgrading his statues to think tank, defence analyst or something like that..

i don't over estimate it, Right way to put it is I am optimistic about how the platform can evolve and make useful contribution in high numbers with very low price.

And if we combine the tejas fighter group with Su-30 MiKI and future stealth UCAVs , the effectiveness of the whole group increase many fold,

because SU-30 MKi can function like mini awacs and it's powerful tracking radar can give guidance to long range BVrs fired by tejas which can fly farther in front. Once the four long range BVRs leave the tejas pylons the frontal RCS of Tejas will go below 1 sq meter and it can't be tracked or targeted at any distance greater than 50 Km roughly,

Such a scenario is a nightmare for any opposing fleet, since IAf will induct tejas in high numbers and may use tejas in excactly in the same manner in air to air mode as it demonstrated in the red flag recently held by using combo of Mig-21 and Su-30 MKi fleet.


That is the point often under estimated by other people who do a simple one on one comparison

if at all you have played chess deeply, you would have noticed how important a pawn is!!!!!!

Often GMs resign from the game just because they have one pawn less or their pawn position is weak,

or even one of their pawn is a passed pawn when all other pawns and pieces are equal,

no one plays a chess game with 8 queens on the front rank, the pawn always occupy the front rank and

all other major pieces always operate around pawns, so importance of a fighter like tejas can never be under estimated citing it lifts just 3.5 tons and it has 20 percent less range.


other than tejas I don't claim much knowledge on guns , naval warfare now,
if need arises I may try to learn a fair bit about them , Thats why I don't post in most other threads besides tejas and Arjun

Thanks ,

 

[venkat]

Thanks for the support, Kunal and Truespirit,

please count me in !!!1

 

[ersakthivel]

Approach to High Angle of Attack Testing of Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas

CL Max And Usable Aoa Considerations----. Wind tunnel experiments haveindicated that CL max continues to improve till approx 35 deg AoA .

However, directional characteristics indicated the proverbial 'cliff' with a sudden drop in Cn , CRM (Coefficient of Rolling Moment) and CYM (Coefficient of Yawing Moment) atapprox 25deg AoA as shown at fig-4 and 5.

These phenomena require the High AoA trialsto be limited to 24deg.(as shown in dotted line) until directional stability is bolstered and augmented by rudder control up to an expected 26 deg.


. Currently the Tejas is flying to AoAlimits of 20deg and 22deg never exceed. Fortunately as shown in fig-6, the LCA has significant rudder authority (CYM-Del R) even up to 30deg AoA that will allow artificial stabilization in yaw at high AOA

,

 

[aerokan]

I second this.

No one on this forum has gone into greater depth of aeronautics' technical & functional aspects, the way he has. When a query is posed, most contributors would simply leave a one-liner or post articles without highlighting the relevant parts of it but @ersakthivel leaves no stones unturned in answering questions & clarifying doubts. There maybe a couple of posters here who have more knowledge than him, are more articulate/coherent, or maybe, possess better command at language, but absolutely no one has really put in as much effort & gone that deep while analyzing developments by conjuring up air-combat scenarios & theoretical calculations. One cannot be without a folly so he may come across as slightly mulish at times but his counter arguments (along with detailed examples) & his knack of catching outright baseless propaganda needs no introduction.

He excels at sharing & his hunger regarding grasping of technical know-how is par-excellence. Such spirit definitely deserves a

+1 this from my side. I learned a lot of aerodynamic concepts from his posts. Though many of the knowledgeable posters find it redundant and propagandist, and though i find the same things repeated over and over again, i feel it is necessary for the new comers to the DFI to get beyond the newbie status in aerodynamics and also learn a little strategic thinking. Once each of the newbies reach a stage of learning, they can research and decide for themselves which version is right in a given argument.

Since we know him as the Defender of the Light (Combat Aircraft) or Defender of the Tejas (light again), i would propose the title "Defender of the Light" :thumb: @Kunal Biswas @Ray @Singh @ Pmaitra

Also why not we have a strategy thread where members can pick their fleet and develop scenarios and engage in a mock battle to prove their points? @Decklander

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Also why not we have a strategy thread where members can pick their fleet and develop scenarios and engage in a mock battle to prove their points? @Decklander

Nice idea. That way, we would even leave BR forum far behind where all posters are on same side during scenario-building exercises.