ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
Status
Not open for further replies.

Defcon 1

New Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Messages
2,195
Likes
1,842
Country flag
I appeal for calm between the posters... I understand that the anger and frustration has been building inside each of you for a while now. Now somebody please explain me and other members how STR is calculated and what do you think the STR of Tejas is and also please let us know how you came to the conclusion based on your STR measurement method?

Despite your fights, lot of members learnt a lot and are still learning from most of your valuable posts. Nobody can be 100% right and that's ok. @p2prada @ersakthivel @Twinblade @Defcon1
I am beyond calm dear poster. To answer to your question, first you need to understand what STR really is:

This is the definition Shipone poste

The concept of sustained maneuverability is used to describe the airplane's ability to maneuver at constant altitude without losing energy and without decelerating. If the airplane is maintaining a level turn at constant airspeed and load factor, the forces along the flight path are balanced. Thrust equals drag for these conditions; therefore, the amount of maneuvering drag the airplane can balance is limited by the maximum thrust. Any changes in thrust available or drag will affect the sustained turning performance.The sustained turning capability may also be limited by airframe considerations. For a level turn at a particular airspeed, the airplane uses excess thrust to counter the increased drag. Thrust available varies with ambient temperature, Mach number andaltitude....
The reason constant speed and altitude is required is because while STR calculation, perfect steady state is assumed, i.e. nothing is changing in the motion of the aircraft, the aircraft can continue to perform the horizontal loops STR for long periods of time which will not be possible if the situation of steady state doesn't exist.



Now lets start with the diagram shipone posted. It shows two forces, Y and G, Y is the lift force on the aircraft which always acts normal to the aircraft as shown in the figure. This force will have a vertical component given by Ysin(alpha). The other force is G, which the gravitational force acting on the aircraft, which will be equal to its weight, which acts opposite to Ysin(alpha). Obviously, for maintaining constant altitude, these two forces will have to balance each other. Hence G=Ysin(alpha). Since G is a constant and alpha, using the above equation we get a value of Y for a given alpha. Now the lift force Y itself depends on the speed on the aircraft, higher the speed, greater the lift.

So the horizontal component of Y, Ycos(alpha), depends on speed of aircraft and the angle alpha. Now if you have studied circular motion, you know that in any circular motion, in the frame of reference of the moving object, a centripetal force acts on the object in circular motion in the outward radial direction, i.e. the direction opposite to Ycos(alpha). For force balance, that centripetal force will be equal to Ycos(alpha). Obviously higher the force, higher the centripetal acceleration. And higher the acceleration, higher the angular velocity of the aircraft. STR is nothing but this angular velocity.

So given an aircraft, a Y and alpha can be selected for it which will give highest angular velocity in a horizontal loop. This is how STR is calculated.

Now, please be very clear about this, no one on this forum came to a conclusion based on our STR measurement method. All that has been said is that STR, the quantity itself is defined for level flights only. The reason why that happens can be easily understood as well. In a vertical loop, the angle between gravitational force G and lift force Y will change continuously, thereby force balance will not be possible at any point in time, thereby no steady state will be achieved.

That is why STR shouldn't be concluded by looking at an aircraft's performance in a vertical loop. I think I should be clear. If you want more exact measurement, you should go through the link @Twinblade posted. Otherwise you can ask if I have missed anything. thanx
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Defcon 1

New Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Messages
2,195
Likes
1,842
Country flag
Please don't question his ability or knowledge
You can question it as long as you can back it up.

in real world every airforce follows the basic rule of forming a squadron by adding single seat fighters + trainers or dual seat fighters. For example in IAF 1 squadron = 16 single seater + 2 trainers = 18 aircraft's.
Good. Where did you get all that? Can you post a source to back up the claim?

Since 40 LCA MK1 was ordered by IAF and 8 LSP's were also to be inducted so I thought for Tejas 1 squadron = 24 aircrafts(22 single seat + 2 trainers). But according to him
40 aircraft were indeed ordered, but out of that SP1 and SP2 will probably not see active service as is mentioned here
Tejas Induction into Air Force to Take More Time - The New Indian Express
We hope to have the first aircraft by end by mid of 2014. The first two aircraft (SP-1, SP-2) might not meet our standards for squadron formation as the metal cutting and hardware were done before we froze the IOC-2 test points. We will raise the first Tejas squadron with four aircraft starting from SP-3 to SP-6
Also, where the hell did you get that LSPs will be inducted, it has been made clear by IAF long back that LSPs will not be inducted.
@Kunal Biswas already posted it on this thread long time. Obviously, since you haven't been following the thread, you know nothing. You are here only to troll. This is a excerpt from Kunal's post, post #717 of this very thread, written by LCA's flight testing chief

In the process of transitioning from design and development to series production, limited or otherwise, an essential step is to undertake a formal comprehensive evaluation of the prototype vehicles. It is in this process that the platforms testability and therefore maintainability, and its suitability for deployment can be assessed and recommendations made for the required standard of preparation (SOP) for series production (SP) aircraft. Having neglected to undertake this step, limited series production aircraft are worthy of remaining test aircraft only and SOP of series production aircraft continues to evolve!
Now what the hell is 1 aircraft in servicing and 1 standby aircraft?? why not 2 in servicing and 4 in standby??
Is this new definition of squadron formation and by what logic??
This is how IAF makes its squadrons, its not a new definition, its how IAF works. You were told very clearly about this in post #1990 of this thread and the following link was posted for your benefit

IAF begins establishing first LCA squadron

A senior retired IAF Official said that a squadron would, generally comprise of 18 pilots and will have a service aircraft, a standby platform and a trainer. However, he added that the number could vary depending on the aircraft and other variables.
However, for some reason, you chose to ignore it all and now you are back here for ranting.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

CuriousBen

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
58
Likes
20
If we keep aside the vertical loop calculations, then I wish to know, at present , what is the STR figure achieved during IOC 2?

Further , when FOC ends what is the targeted STR ?

Would help if anyone point to genuine information .

Somehow I feel that tejas is upto the mark and has / can outperform, but I wish to know the results.
 

Defcon 1

New Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Messages
2,195
Likes
1,842
Country flag
nice work, but the small detail you fail to note is that in two of the four occasions i used the term in vertical loop ,

In other two occasions i did not use it.

But every one following my posts would know that on what plane I meant the 18 degree STR to be , if , It is difficult for you and couple of your useless friends changes nothing.


Ofcourse traditional STR is measured in horizontal plane , i never refuted it.
,
Ok, let us believe your lie for one more time. But we also know that you also compared it to F16's STR of 18 degree per second which is clearly measured in a horizontal turning flight in posts #1806 and post #1823.
From 1 to 21 seconds a vertical loop in 20 seconds gives it a STR of 18 deg(360/20 seconds).

It is the same STR as that of F-16's whose flight envelope is opened till 9Gs and to it's full AOA spec.
Now any sane person will not compare the turn rate in a vertical turn loop with a turn rate in a horizontal turn. That means either of the two are possible

1. You did not know how STR is measured. You measured the turn rate of Tejas in vertical loop and started calling it STR and compared it to STR of F16 which is measured in horizontal turning flight.

2. You knew how STR is measured. In spite of that you measured the turn rate of Tejas in vertical loop and started calling it STR and compared it to STR of F16 which is measured in horizontal turning flight, clearly lying.

Either way, either you are troll who knows nothing about aviation or a pathological liar who is suffering from a mental problem. Take your pick.
 
Last edited:

pmaitra

New Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,600
Guys:
  • Keep it civil and cut the name-calling.
  • Posting citations and references to back up a claim is highly desirable, but not mandatory.
  • I have seen both pro-indigenization and anti-indigenization posters make claims without backing them up. So let us not pontificate about one another.
  • Make your point and move on.
N.B.: To the person who is suggesting that MODs give leeway to one poster because he is nationalistic - please refrain from making such preposterous and false accusations.
 

Defcon 1

New Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Messages
2,195
Likes
1,842
Country flag
If we keep aside the vertical loop calculations, then I wish to know, at present , what is the STR figure achieved during IOC 2?

Further , when FOC ends what is the targeted STR ?

Would help if anyone point to genuine information .

Somehow I feel that tejas is upto the mark and has / can outperform, but I wish to know the results.
15 degree was demonstrated at Aero India 2013. As @Twinblade said, targeted STR is 17 degree. Source to it can be found here

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/18521-ada-tejas-lca-iii-194.html#post573804

Space constraints prevent any meaningful description of materials, technology, facilities, processes developed for execution of the project. Military aviation enthusiasts may read a monograph on Aeronautical Technology that has attained maturity through DRDO efforts; much of this technology finds application in the LCA project. The monograph was brought out at Aero India 1998. The LCA is tailless with a double-sweep delta wing. Its wing span is 8.2 m, length 13.2 m, height 4.4 m. TOW clean 8.500 kg, MTOW 12500kg. It will be super-sonic at all altitudes, max speed of M 1.5 at the tropopause. Specific excess power and g-over load data has not been published. Maximum sustained rate of turn will be 17 deg per sec and maximum attainable 30 deg per sec.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
Ok, let us believe your lie for one more time. But we also know that you also compared it to F16's STR of 18 degree per second which is clearly measured in a horizontal turning flight in posts #1806 and post #1823.

Now any sane person will not compare the turn rate in a vertical turn loop with a turn rate in a horizontal turn. That means either of the two are possible

1. You did not know how STR is measured. You measured the turn rate of Tejas in vertical loop and started calling it STR and compared it to STR of F16 which is measured in horizontal turning flight.

2. You knew how STR is measured. In spite of that you measured the turn rate of Tejas in vertical loop and started calling it STR and compared it to STR of F16 which is measured in horizontal turning flight, clearly lying.

Either way, either you are troll who knows nothing about aviation or a pathological liar who is suffering from a mental problem. Take your pick.
Do you know in how many seconds the F-16 completes a vertical loop?

Post me since you refer many books on aerodynamics , you ought to know.

I know how the STR is measured and all other things,

Thats why I mentioned vertical loop whenever I mentioned this 18 deg STR, Which you always omit conveniently?

Also I asked you how do you compute the agility of the fighter in a vertical loop?

you guys You haven't answered that either,

because in a dogfight when fighter A completes a vertical loop before the pursuing fighter B can get a gun shot on it,

And after a few vertical cartwheeling loops the fighter B is going to have his ass handed over on a silver plate by the faster vertical loop making fighter A,

Thats what I implied with the term vertical STR, Get that first

You intervene without even knowing the context and run away saying , I am done with or I am busy going home,

Got it. be honest for at least one last time, give a genuine reply,

you are not getting away from me any time soon,

bye,
 
Last edited:

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
15 degree was demonstrated at Aero India 2013. As @Twinblade said, targeted STR is 17 degree. Source to it can be found here


http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/18521-ada-tejas-lca-iii-194.html#post573804[/QUOTE]



pace constraints prevent any meaningful description of materials, technology, facilities, processes developed for execution of the project. Military aviation enthusiasts may read a monograph on Aeronautical Technology that has attained maturity through DRDO efforts; much of this technology finds application in the LCA project. The monograph was brought out at Aero India 1998. The LCA is tailless with a double-sweep delta wing. Its wing span is 8.2 m, length 13.2 m, height 4.4 m. TOW clean 8.500 kg, MTOW 12500kg. It will be super-sonic at all altitudes, max speed of M 1.5 at the tropopause. Specific excess power and g-over load data has not been published. Maximum sustained rate of turn will be 17 deg per sec and maximum attainable 30 deg per sec.
This old ASR was for LCA was before the FSED phase -II in 2004,

many things in the ASR are already exceeded,

tejas now lifts around to 13 ton MTOW ,

Also ADA poster in Aeroindia-2013, clearly said speed mach 1.6 at ceiling altitiude,

Despite the empty weight getting to 6.5 tons And it is super sonic at sea level and can do a higher speed than mach 1.5 mentioned in the old ASR,

SO it is obvious that the old ASR was upgraded as per later IAF request , and FSED phase-II which began after 2004 is for that,

Also the demo of 15 deg STR was done with 20 deg AOA limit and 6G limit,

So you can compute what STR it will do when post IOC it gets a much higher AOA of min 24 Deg(Most experience test pilot of tejas Suneet krishna says it will be 28 deg for FOC) and 8 G limit.

because right now the flight envelope of tejas is opened only to 70 percent of it's true potential, within this 70 percent opened capacity tejas did a 15 deg STR in horizontal and 17 deg STR in vertical,

Also old ASR was for a close combat WVR misisles of R-60 , now it has a much potent R-73 which was the reason for the FSED-II along with the longer range BVRs,
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
I don't get angry. It's the internet. who the hell cares.



Shiphone's post is a good starting point to understanding the concept of sustained turn. More at this link :- http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~lutze/AOE3104/turningflight.pdf

Tejas is expected to exceed 17 degree sustained turn rate.

---------------
Ersakthivel, when will you understand the concept of ignore list ?
When you understand the concept that the one rupee coin you hold perpendicular to ground,

at a height of two feet below your eyes will always look like an oval,


and

when you explain without undertaking the nose cone plug recommended by CEMILAC , how tejas went past the top speeds of SU-30 MKI and Mig-29 in indian conditions,

with the use of some decent english language of course,

If you don't like to reply, I will take this as an end of debate and leave it at that,

Shipone also said in the combat aircarft evolution and technology thread that,

the tailless delta is a drag prone platform and that is the reason for tejas troubles in range and so many other areas,If you stand by that statement please explain how with the addition of canard how the makers of Grippen, TYPHOON and RAFALE minimized the all the undesireable drag,

That statement of shipone flies ion the face of F-16 XL's basic design philosophy,

Strangely when I pointed out this in that thread and may other threads i only get a stony silence in response,

WHY?

Does Shipone knows more than the legendary designer of F-16 XL?

@p2prada
@shiphone
@Twinblade
@Defcon 1

any of you guys can answer this in a civilized manner, i come here for debate not for fighting , when provoked in extreme measures only i give something back, otherwise I don't mind being proved wrong,

In fact if someone corrects me i learn something it is an advantage and I don't consider it an insult,

Thanks,
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
@p2prada
@shiphone
@Twinblade
@Defcon 1

Shipone also said in the combat aircarft evolution and technology thread that,

the tailless delta is a drag prone platform and that is the reason for tejas troubles in range and so many other areas,If you stand by that statement please explain how with the addition of canard how the makers of Grippen, TYPHOON and RAFALE minimized the all the undesireable drag,

That statement of shipone flies ion the face of F-16 XL's basic design philosophy,explained beautifully in the link below,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For an air-to-surface mission,

the F-16XL can carry twice the payload of the F-16A up to forty-four percent farther,

and do it without external fuel tanks while carrying four AMRAAM (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles)

and two Sidewinder AIM-9 infrared missiles.


With equal payload/weapons and external fuel, the mission radius can be nearly doubled.

When configured for a pure air-to-air mission, an F-6XL with four AMRAAMs and two AIM-9s can go forty-five percent farther than an F-16A

and can do so while conducting a combat action that is equal to thirty percent of its internal fuel.

As for penetration and survivability, the F-16XL can dash supersonically with a load of bombs at either high or low altitude. It can climb at high rates with the bombs aboard.

And it has a speed advantage of up to eighty-three knots over the F-16A at sea level at military power setting and 311 knots on afterburner at altitude while carrying a bomb load.

Two additional capabilities of the F-16XL contribute to survivability. First is improved instantaneous maneuver ability coupled with greatly expanded flight operating limits (with bombs), and second is reduced radar signature resulting from the configuration shaping.

Importance of High Turn Rate

For a decade and a half, many fighter tacticians have stressed the paramount importance of being able to sustain a high turn rate at high Gs.

The rationale was that with such a capability, enemy aircraft that cannot equal or better the sustained turn rate at high Gs could not get off a killing shot with guns or missiles.

With developments in missiles that can engage at all aspects, and as a result of having evaluated Israeli successes in combat, the tacticians are now leaning toward the driving need for quick, high-G turns to get a "first-shot, quick-kill" capability before the adversary is able to launch his missiles.

This the F-16XL can do. Harry Hillaker says it can attain five Gs in 0.8 seconds, on the way to nine Gs in just a bit more time. That's half the time required for the F-16A, which in turn is less than half the time required for the F-4. The speed loss to achieve five Gs is likewise half that of the F-16A.


All of these apparent miracles seem to violate the laws of aerodynamics by achieving greater range, payload, maneuverability, and survivability. Instead, they are achieved by inspired design, much wind-tunnel testing of shapes, exploitation of advanced technologies, and freedom from the normal contract constraints.

The inspired design mates a "cranked-arrow" wing to a fifty-six inch longer fuselage. The cranked-arrow design retains the advantages of delta wings for high-speed flight, but overcomes all of the disadvantages by having its aft portion less highly swept than the forward section. It thus retains excellent low-speed characteristics and minimizes the trim drag penalties of a tailless delta.


Although the wing area is more than double that of the standard F-16 (633square feet vs. 300 square feet), the drag is actually reduced.

The skin friction drag that is a function of the increased wetted (skin surface) area is increased, but the other components of drag (wave, interference, and trim) that are a function of the configuration shape and arrangement are lower so that the "clean airplane" drag is slightly lower during level flight, and forty percent lower when bombs and missiles are added.

And although the thrust-to-weight (T/W) ratio is lower due to the increased weight, the excess thrust is greater because the drag is lower – and excess thrust is what counts.

The larger yet more efficient wing provides a larger area for external stores carriage.

At the same time, the wing's internal volume and the lengthened fuselage enable the XL to carry more than eighty percent more fuel internally. That permits an advantageous tradeoff between weapons carried and external fuel tanks.

Next, we conducted simulated weapons passes on a ground target, using the continuously computed impact point system (CCIP) displayed on the HUD. With this system, even this novice pilot, who has difficulty with a non-computing gun-sight, achieved on-target results.

Attack maneuvers resulted in G forces ranging to +7.0. With the heavy bomb load aboard, the F-16XL is cleared for maneuvers up to +7.2 Gs, compared with 5.58 Gs in the F-16A. This demonstrates how the designers were able to increase the aircraft weight while maintaining structural integrity and mission performance.


With the F-16XL, the US Air Force has the option to gain markedly improved range, payload, and survivability performance over current fighters. According to its designers, the F-16XL in production would have a unit flyaway cost of about fifteen to twenty percent more than the F-16C and D.


All this was achieved in F-16 XL with just 20 percent extra cost than the regular F-16 cost shows the cost effective nature of the cranled arrow wing design,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A normal F-16 flies besides the F-16 XL which has the cranked arrow wing form that tejas follows,





The Revolutionary Evolution of the F-16XL


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, if you guys can not reply to this post , then do the decent thing, at least acknowledge it.

Don't use the IGNORE option to escape explaining the plus points of tejas cranked delta wing form ,

which will give the same advantage of cranked arrow F-16 XL over the plain cropped delta F-16, canards are there or not is irrelevant , because all the advantages attained by F-16 XL over F-16 is due to the vortex generation effect of cranked arrow wing form, which is done by canards in canard delta wing form,
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
Must accept. You have great imagination

See this is not a literary ramp walk, where fakes clench their prose butt,

rotate their flowery language hips with the help of some high heels english ,

and try to cheat with seductive looks for love ,

This a technical synthetic track,

where you strain every nerve of your body ,

clench every muscle of yours,

to sprint and be measured against a stop watch ,

in milliseconds.

The written garbage maker you appreciated is keeping stony silence here ,

when confronted with some solid aerodynamic points in post no-2157.

These guys had a whale of the time till Tejas got the IOC-2,

and now,

they are having the time of the beached whale counting it's minutes,

I too share your thought, they ONLY have great imagination and no solid facts to debate,

which you should have known by now,

Any way these literary friends of mine are not going to keep quiet for long, that I assure you,

So it is going to be fun and games in the new year,
 
Last edited:

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
30 years in the making, Tejas aircraft finally gets initial operational clearance - The Times of India

Tejas specifications
Indigenous Content: 65% (Engines and ejection seats from US, canopy sheath from Canda, etc)
Weight: 12 tonnes (fully-loaded)
Length: 13.2 metre
Height: 4.4metre
Wing Span: 8.2 metre
Service Ceiling: 15 km
Speed: 1350 kmph
Radius of Action: Over 400 km (without refuelling)
Which tejas version has a twelve ton weight fully loaded?I don't know of any such fighter

It seems Rajat Pandit still has thirty year old copy of the older ASR, and still believes that tejas can lift only 12 tons fully loaded

Some one should ask him to move on,and leave defence reporting to some one who knows some ABC about defence matters,



Time the editor board took a call on this, or ask him to visit http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/ to learn a thing or two,
 
Last edited:

cobra commando

Tharki regiment
New Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Messages
11,117
Likes
14,550
Country flag
LCA-Navy ready to
fly again shortly




The LCA Navy, which hasn't flown for over a year now, is likely to fly again soon by early next year, top sources tell SP's. After a first flight in April last year, followed by three more development flights, the NP1 naval prototype is said to be ready to take to the air again with significant modifications. The NP1 flight test was put on hold after ADA identified issues with the platform's landing gear and undercarriage design, necessitating a technological consultancy contract currently being executed with EADS. On the ground in Bangalore over the last year, the consultancy has included issues pertaining to strengthening of the landing gear, sink rate parameters and other critical aspects of approach. As reported by SP's earlier, the ADA is looking to add a new telemetry facility at INS Hansa to facilitate testing at the shore-based test facility (SBTF) to be used by MiG-29K and LCA-N platforms starting next year.

SP's Aviation - SP’s Exculsive
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Articles

Top