ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Defcon 1]

The TACDE will fly these ac while the sqn pilots continue conversion. TACDE will lay down the procedures and tactics to exploit this ac. writing of manuals, preparation and formulation of tactics and conversion of pilots can continue simultaneously. Please remember that IAF will be inducting two sqns of these ac which means they need to train over 60 pilots on this ac and you do train pilots after the ac is delivered but before that.

Thanks for the prompt reply. As you said in other thread, pilot training can be started by using some LSPs, while first SPs will go to TACDE. I believe some LSPs will also be required to carry forward FOC tests. So manual preparation would probably require additional SPs which will only come later.

Either that or training, manual prep and FOC testing should be carried simultaneously using the limited number of PVs and LSPs that we have. Is it possible to do so using 7 LSPs and 5 PVs?

 

[ersakthivel]

IAF begins establishing first LCA squadron
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IAF begins establishing first LCA squadron
Chethan Kumar, Bangalore, July 10, DHNS:

Tejas' seventh limited series production to fly in August

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has begun the process of establishing the first light combat aircraft (LCA) squadron — Tejas — and is getting help from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

Well-placed sources in the IAF said: "We already have our personnel in Bangalore and are working together with ADA and HAL to form the squadron, an official announcement about the squadron will be made soon after we are fully ready."

A senior retired IAF Official said that a squadron would, generally comprise of 18 pilots and will have a service aircraft, a standby platform and a trainer. However, he added that the number could vary depending on the aircraft and other variables.

The first squadron of LCA will be the IAF's 45th squadron, the Flying Daggers. They would first be based in Bangalore before being stationed at Sulur, near Coimbatore, where the IAF wants the first squadron positioned.


Speaking to Deccan Herald, ADA head P S Subramanyam, who confirmed that the IAF personnel were in Bangalore, said:"ˆ"HAL, ADA and IAF together are working on raising the first squadron."

He said that a team of ground support personnel and technicians, who have been identified after due diligence would assist the IAF in establishing the squadron so that there is proper product support, besides having set up labs and other facilities.

The aid from HAL and ADA, he said, will be during the transition phase, and after that the role of the duo will be restricted to support and maintenance. The IAF personnel are currently going through ground testing among other things and will get on to the real activity once the LCA limited series production seven (LSP-7) and LSP-8 platforms are ready to fly.

Speaking on that, Subramanyam said:"ˆ"Despite small delays, the LSP-7 platform will take to the skies this August and the LSP-8 in November." Aircraft Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) Chief Test Pilot, Group Captain B R Krishan had told Deccan Herald in February that the aircraft would be put through rigorous testing and the limits would be pushed before handing it over to the squadron. "...The ASTE intends to push the G-force of the plane from six to eight," he had said.

The first LCA squadron, will first fly the LSP-7 & 8, which are pegged to be very close to the final version of the aircraft. It is noteworthy that HAL and ADA had earlier said that the IAF would be provided with the LSP-7 and LSP-8 for user evaluation trials by March 2011, but have failed in meeting the deadline.

However, the delay, they say is acceptable given that the LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be very close to the final version. Not only will they be close in terms of design and ability but also in terms of the way they are manufactured, which has required HAL and ADA to make suitable changes.

LCH completes maiden flight
The second technology demonstrator (TD-2) of the light combat helicopter (LCH) completed its maiden flight on June 28, here, an official announcement of which is yet to be made by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)

According to sources close to the project, pilots performed limited manoeuvres on June 28 and did not experiment much, as the flight was limited to low-speed testing.

They added that the pilots, Hari Nair and Unni Pillai, after the flight, have given their observations and the team is working on the same. Surprisingly, HAL has maintained silence over the test, the same way it did last year when TD-1 went on its first flight, which was a milestone.

The LCH TD-2, although faced a small glitch, attracted a lot of attention at the latest edition of Aero India, given its digital camouflage paint, a technology which is being used for the first time in India.

 

[ersakthivel]

Can't find the link about air marshal. Please post it if you can find it.

Anyways here is what I understand. Since cemilac have already issued the certificate once, they won't be issuing it again. The shortfalls in ASR which could be corrected without changing the design have been corrected now and hence IOC-2. So two things are left, tactics preparation and mro and deployment manual preparation for training the ground and air crew.

So I am assuming that pilot training cannot start right now since manuals are not ready. So the first 4 SPs should go to TACDE for tactics prep. Pilot training could begin in a year while LSPs are utilized for manual prepartion. Am I correct?
@<a href="http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/member.php?u=12248" target="_blank">Decklander</a> @<a href="http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/member.php?u=10032" target="_blank">Twinblade</a>

Thanks

Which shortfall in ASR is corrected now?

Please give a source for the IAF ASR past and present and point out the shortfalls,

Even with 6Gs and 20 deg AOA restriction Tejas completed a vertical loop in 20 seconds in Aeroindia 2013, giving it a STR of 18 deg per second.

http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/f16.htm

Combat Radius: 900 km
Internal Armament: 1*g 20 mm
G-limits: 9/-3.5
Maximum instantenous turn rate: 26 degrees/second
Maximum sustained turn rate: 18 degrees/second
TWR(50% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile): ~1.26:1
TWR(100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile): ~1.1:1

Even with a TWR(1.07-50% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile) 20 percent less than F-16 Tejas has managed the same STR of F-16 in aeroindia 2013 a proof of the aerodynamic superiority of cranked delta RSS design with just 6G and 20 deg AOA restriction.

Half loop completed in ten seconds from 1.29 seconds to 1.39 seconds and full loop at 1.29 seconds to 1.50 seconds in the following display video



So what are the shortfalls?


The original ASR given out by MSD Woolen says IAF wanted an STR of 17 deg and ITR of 30 deg from Tejas, which was posted many times in this thread. AFAIK no other ASR version is available on the net for tejas.

And we don't know what kind of STR and ITR was demanded by IAF in FSED phase-2.

So you can make up what STR it can manage with 8Gs and 24-26 deg AOA when flight envelope is opened.

Don't believe the conversion training BS reeled out here by some blind folks, who don't know a shit about Tejas

So talking about this shortfall and that shortfall without even knowing what was the asked for ASR is just inaccurate.

Months ago IDRW published an article which conclusively says IAF has been satisfied with the close combat specs of tejas. That is the final official word we have about all specs specified in ASR having been met.

http://idrw.org/?p=21468

Tejas MK-2 was born when Indian navy wanted a carrier fighter aircraft based on Tejas MK-1 air force variant, Navy wanted more powerful engines to care out carrier take off, Navy also wanted changes in Airframe for carrier role,

and

IAF sensing an opportunity that a new and better variant of Tejas can be developed based on Indian navy requirements, was quick to grab this opportunity and pressed for development of new variant, even when Tejas MK-1 was able to fulfil ASR of IAF.

Mk-2 is built to take advantage of all the latest development in engine and radar fields that does not mean mk-1 is a sub standard fighter.

 

[Decklander]

Thanks for the prompt reply. As you said in other thread, pilot training can be started by using some LSPs, while first SPs will go to TACDE. I believe some LSPs will also be required to carry forward FOC tests. So manual preparation would probably require additional SPs which will only come later.

Either that or training, manual prep and FOC testing should be carried simultaneously using the limited number of PVs and LSPs that we have. Is it possible to do so using 7 LSPs and 5 PVs?

Post#1803 has answered it already.

 

[ersakthivel]

From 1 to 21 seconds a vertical loop in 20 seconds gives it a STR of 18 deg(360/20 seconds).

It is the same STR as that of F-16's whose flight envelope is opened till 9Gs and to it's full AOA spec.

tejas did pull this 20 seconds vertical loop with 6G and 20 deg AOA flight envelope restriction in 2013 aeroindia flight display.

if it is going to be cleared for 8Gs as explained in post 1803 along with a much higher AOA of 24-26 deg in FOC it sure is going to better this STR of around 18 deg displayed in aeroindia 2013.

this video was originally posted by @rahulrds1 in

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/38586-aero-india-2013-a-17.html

If any one has any views on the STR calculation here , please post

 

[ersakthivel]

So the unsubstantiated drivel that Tejas is beset with higher drag and it's air intake starves air flow to engine and because of it's speed bleeding delta it can not achieve a good STR is being thrown out of the window by the video in the post-1806.



Also the decision of ADA to go for a cranked delta RSS fly by wire air frame with very wing loading following the F-16 XL model has been proven right .

That 20 seconds vertical loop was pulled not by improved LSP-7 which implemented many improvements but by older LSPs.

 

[p2prada]

Anyways here is what I understand. Since cemilac have already issued the certificate once, they won't be issuing it again. The shortfalls in ASR which could be corrected without changing the design have been corrected now and hence IOC-2. So two things are left, tactics preparation and mro and deployment manual preparation for training the ground and air crew.

So I am assuming that pilot training cannot start right now since manuals are not ready. So the first 4 SPs should go to TACDE for tactics prep. Pilot training could begin in a year while LSPs are utilized for manual prepartion. Am I correct?

Thanks

Everything will happen simultaneously. The air force has given some leeway in this IOC-2, for eg, IOC-2 aircraft will only have 20deg AoA instead of 22. So both ADA and CEMILAC will be more concerned about achieving FOC specs while air force will handle the rest. This is only half time. The game is yet to finish.

Training can continue without the manuals, it will mostly be conversion training for existing pilots before rookies are trained. We don't yet have a two seat trainer for LCA.

 

[Twinblade]

So I am assuming that pilot training cannot start right now since manuals are not ready. So the first 4 SPs should go to TACDE for tactics prep. Pilot training could begin in a year while LSPs are utilized for manual prepartion. Am I correct?
@Decklander @Twinblade

Thanks

Manuals were supposed to be handed out at IOC 2. LSP-7 and LSP-8 were supposed to be handed over to TACDE. I am unaware of any changes that might have happened since then.

 

[makmohan]

Step 2: FOC and Fast Tracking Tejas MK-2 Development | idrw.org

It took almost 3 years and record breaking test flights of 450 for Drdo along with HAL to achieve IOC-2 for Lca Tejas Aircraft; Tejas which achieved Partial IOC-1 in January 10, 2011, will be granted IOC-2 on 20th December of this month, which will also lead to formal induction of Tejas into Indian air force after almost 13 years in testing after its first flight in 2001.

IOC-2 clearance also gives Tejas operational capability to use WVR (Within Visual Range) AAM (Air to Air Missile) like Russian made R-73 in Active combat roles and recent test conducted in Ins Hansa base in Goa over Arabian sea confirms that Tejas now has ability to track and destroy aircrafts Within Visual Range .

IOC-2 also clears Tejas to be used for Ground attack roles and have cleared tests for use of laser-guided 1000-lbs bombs and unguided bombs. DRDO plans to achieve FOC by end of 2014 , FOC certification will include integration and Successful firing of Rafael Derby or the Vympel R-77 for BVR ( Beyond Visual Range ) AAM (Air to Air Missile) Roles and also will require clearance of High Altitude Bombing runs which will be carried out in Leh next .
FOC will also see Demonstration of Inflight Air-to-Air refueling capability by Tejas aircraft , Fixed Refueling probes in past have been successfully integrated and tested on ground and current LSP ( limited Serial Production) Tejas Aircrafts already have required Piping and plumbing systems integrated in the aircraft so adding Refueling Probes will see lesser time consumption .
FOC will also require higher AOA (Angle of Attack) from current 22-24 degrees to 28 degrees but this also has high risk element of Flame out. usually aircrafts are designed to handle much higher AOA then 28 degrees but Tejas Air-intakes which are smaller and have some design flaws might make it High Risk Test for Tejas , But ADA and HAL are planning to integrate a Backup Power Pack to allow engine restart if flames out does occur has a safety mechanism.

HAL has promised to deliver first SP (Serial Production) 1 and 2 by end of March 2014 and another 2 aircrafts by end of 2014, IAF has placed orders for 20 IOC-2 Certified aircrafts and 20 FOC certified aircrafts based on Tejas MK-1. HAL Plans to start work on first Prototype of Tejas MK-2 next year and have it ready for its first flight by end of 2015, GE will be sending first batch of F414-GE-INS6 which will power Tejas MK-2 in early 2014.

Tejas MK-2 will also have a newly laid out cockpit layout with better computing power since it also be housing new mission control computer, Samtel Display Systems(SDS) is also working on touch based Multi-Function Displays (MFD) for Tejas Mk-2 , which will later find its way in AMCA too .

Tejas Mk-2 will also see structural changes in the aircraft which will be noticeable in wider wing span to carry extra weapons load along with extra fuel, aircraft will also have large air intakes to let the high thrust engine generate additional power for the aircraft, engine change for Tejas Mk-2 will result in the rear fuselage being changed too.

Commonality between Tejas Mk-1 and Tejas MK-2 will be digital Fly by Wire (FBW) Flight Control System (FCS) along with some avionics which both aircraft will share, but sources also told us that FBW Software will require some modification in them to support structural changes which Tejas MK-2 will have.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Interesting Point ..

FOC will also require higher AOA (Angle of Attack) from current 22-24 degrees to 28 degrees but this also has high risk element of Flame out. usually aircrafts are designed to handle much higher AOA then 28 degrees but Tejas Air-intakes which are smaller and have some design flaws might make it High Risk Test for Tejas , But ADA and HAL are planning to integrate a Backup Power Pack to allow engine restart if flames out does occur has a safety mechanism.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Interesting Point ..

The question is how long will it take for the aircraft engines to reach peak performance after restarting from a flameout? every second delay will give enormous advantage to the enemy.

 

[Twinblade]

The air force has given some leeway in this IOC-2, for eg, IOC-2 aircraft will only have 20deg AoA instead of 22. So both ADA and CEMILAC will be more concerned about achieving FOC specs while air force will handle the rest. This is only half time. The game is yet to finish.

Not really. 22 degree AoA was achieved a while back itself. 24 is the IAF's requirement, 35 degrees is what the design originally called for, 26-28 is what it will realistically achieve.

 

[p2prada]

Not really. 22 degree AoA was achieved a while back itself. 24 is the IAF's requirement, 35 degrees is what the design originally called for, 26-28 is what it will realistically achieve.

It is the same as before. 22 deg for IOC (relaxed to 20) and 24 deg for FOC as of 2011.

2013 news
The Light Combat Aircraft will attain IOC this year and FOC by 2015

The transition from IOC to FOC will see the flight envelope being extended to -3.5G to +8G from the -2G to 6G when the 'Tejas' was granted limited IOC. The Angle of Attack (AoA) will also be increased to 24 degrees.

Livefist: Another Milestone Missed, Panic Button Pushed On Tejas

The bridge between IOC-2 and FOC will include the following: integration of beyond visual range weapons, gun, rockets, guided and unguided bombs, and the further expansion of its flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (-2 to 6G for IOC-2) and 24-degrees angle of attack (22 for IOC-2).

2011 news
Livefist: IAF Grudgingly Accepts Tejas IOC, Wants 83 Mk-IIs

ADA said in a statement that the following would bridge the gap between initial and final operational clearance: integration of beyond visual range weapons, gun, rockets, guided and unguided bombs, and the further expansion of its flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (-2 to 6G for IOC) and 24-degrees angle of attack (22 for IOC).

So, IOC figures have always been 22 deg and FOC figures 24. It's not changed even today.

It is possible requirements for Mk2 are the ones that are being quoted all over the place now.

If ADA has managed to achieve 22 deg for IOC-2, then that's great. It only means it surpassed IAF's IOC-2 parameter that was originally relaxed.

 

[Decklander]

Not really. 22 degree AoA was achieved a while back itself. 24 is the IAF's requirement, 35 degrees is what the design originally called for, 26-28 is what it will realistically achieve.

53* sweep back has a stalling alpha of nearly 35*. any ac not capable of reaching its stall alpha is a failure.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It also depends on various details such as altitude, Speed etc ..

The question is how long will it take for the aircraft engines to reach peak performance after restarting from a flameout? every second delay will give enormous advantage to the enemy.

 

[ersakthivel]

Step 2: FOC and Fast Tracking Tejas MK-2 Development | idrw.org

It took almost 3 years and record breaking test flights of 450 for Drdo along with HAL to achieve IOC-2 for Lca Tejas Aircraft; Tejas which achieved Partial IOC-1 in January 10, 2011, will be granted IOC-2 on 20th December of this month, which will also lead to formal induction of Tejas into Indian air force after almost 13 years in testing after its first flight in 2001.

IOC-2 clearance also gives Tejas operational capability to use WVR (Within Visual Range) AAM (Air to Air Missile) like Russian made R-73 in Active combat roles and recent test conducted in Ins Hansa base in Goa over Arabian sea confirms that Tejas now has ability to track and destroy aircrafts Within Visual Range .

IOC-2 also clears Tejas to be used for Ground attack roles and have cleared tests for use of laser-guided 1000-lbs bombs and unguided bombs. DRDO plans to achieve FOC by end of 2014 , FOC certification will include integration and Successful firing of Rafael Derby or the Vympel R-77 for BVR ( Beyond Visual Range ) AAM (Air to Air Missile) Roles and also will require clearance of High Altitude Bombing runs which will be carried out in Leh next .
FOC will also see Demonstration of Inflight Air-to-Air refueling capability by Tejas aircraft , Fixed Refueling probes in past have been successfully integrated and tested on ground and current LSP ( limited Serial Production) Tejas Aircrafts already have required Piping and plumbing systems integrated in the aircraft so adding Refueling Probes will see lesser time consumption .
FOC will also require higher AOA (Angle of Attack) from current 22-24 degrees to 28 degrees but this also has high risk element of Flame out. usually aircrafts are designed to handle much higher AOA then 28 degrees but Tejas Air-intakes which are smaller and have some design flaws might make it High Risk Test for Tejas , But ADA and HAL are planning to integrate a Backup Power Pack to allow engine restart if flames out does occur has a safety mechanism.

Back up power pack is mandatory for all single engine fighters.

No air intake flaws and no flame out as usual some pretty illiterate stuff from the journo.

The chief naval test pilot himself clarified in Aeroindia 2013 that there is no engine flame out during starving at high AOA.

Aux intake is added to provide more air to increase thrust in high AOA not to save plane from flame out.

No design flaw makes it a high risk test, Same pretty old BS without even knowing the basic fact that all Fly by wire RSS fighters will never be allowed to go beyond their designated high AOA.

Since tejas Fly by wire software will never allow the pilot to pull a AOA higher than safe limit it will never cause flame out due to this reason!!!!!

Surprising people don't even know this basic fact.

LSP-6 is meant for DEPARTURE testing. I.e to test the fighter for it's behaviour in high AOAs above 26 degree.

In wind tunnel tests the airfram already proved to retain rudder authority even above 35 deg.

Even though fighter makers float fancy 100 deg AOA in manuals for very restricted flight regime (mostly stall recovery) and they are never combat usable.For all practical purposes usable AOA is max 28 deg for all fighters with aerodynamic efficiency of the wing holding up reasonable lift.

beyond that it is mostly stall recovery from trying to recover non Fly by wire fighter entering stall position inadvertantly.

more than 28 deg AOA is not needed to be used for tejas as it has low enough wing loading to pull required STR and ITR within that AOA.

HAL has promised to deliver first SP (Serial Production) 1 and 2 by end of March 2014 and another 2 aircrafts by end of 2014, IAF has placed orders for 20 IOC-2 Certified aircrafts and 20 FOC certified aircrafts based on Tejas MK-1. HAL Plans to start work on first Prototype of Tejas MK-2 next year and have it ready for its first flight by end of 2015, GE will be sending first batch of F414-GE-INS6 which will power Tejas MK-2 in early 2014.

Tejas MK-2 will also have a newly laid out cockpit layout with better computing power since it also be housing new mission control computer, Samtel Display Systems(SDS) is also working on touch based Multi-Function Displays (MFD) for Tejas Mk-2 , which will later find its way in AMCA too .

Tejas Mk-2 will also see structural changes in the aircraft which will be noticeable in wider wing span to carry extra weapons load along with extra fuel, aircraft will also have large air intakes to let the high thrust engine generate additional power for the aircraft, engine change for Tejas Mk-2 will result in the rear fuselage being changed too.

Commonality between Tejas Mk-1 and Tejas MK-2 will be digital Fly by Wire (FBW) Flight Control System (FCS) along with some avionics which both aircraft will share, but sources also told us that FBW Software will require some modification in them to support structural changes which Tejas MK-2 will have.

So people pretty much write what they desire with out caring for the truth.

 

[p2prada]

53* sweep back has a stalling alpha of nearly 35*. any ac not capable of reaching its stall alpha is a failure.

The design stall alpha for Mk1 is still above 30 deg. That's not changed. Whether it will reach it, LSP-6 will demonstrate it eventually.

If possible can you please explain how Gripen achieves it's AoA of 50 deg FCS limit. And why are Rafale and EF restricted at ~ 25 degs in comparison?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They had to add something, Cannot swallow the uncomfortable truth that India can make a fighter on its own ...
Serious bad news for their business and there business associates,

I do remember dec 2011 when Tejas were inducted into IAF, the Jurno kept saying ' After 30 years ' again and again but little or no input abt IOC-1 or what is IOC itself ..

So people pretty much write what they desire with out caring for the truth.

 

[p2prada]

X posting from Mk2 thread.

The plan was always to deliver 2 after 6 months of IOC and 2 more after 12 months. Followed by 4 next year, followed by 8 the third year.

So, total of 16 in three years and then 8+8+8 = 40 aircraft in 6 years. This is for LCA Mk1.

 

[Twinblade]

If possible can you please explain how Gripen achieves it's AoA of 50 deg FCS limit. And why are Rafale and EF restricted at ~ 25 degs in comparison?

Gripen achieved it's critical alpha in excess of 100 degrees, but for the sake of preservation of energy, the 'hard' limit has been put in the range of 50-55 degrees and the 'soft' limit around 26 degrees. The FCS of gripen momentarily allows for the alpha to overshoot the soft limit but then the negative feedback kicks in and it is brought back within the limits.