ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[vram]

Awesome ...SO finally the era of the LCA begins in the IAF..may it be glorious.

 

[sasi]

Two squadrons in five years seems about right. For all the hoopla going around about 16 fighters a year, the fact is there is no official source for this. There is only a interview of DRDO chief in september in which he said something like this.



If that can be taken as official source then ok.

Logically as well, increase in production capacity from 8 to 16 per year would have required allotment of additional funds to HAL since they have no money of their own. However, we haven't heard anything about the same as well.

it is official cleared by ccs. As of now production line for 8 is ready. Don't know abt the status of second line.

 

[Defcon 1]

it is official cleared by ccs. As of now production line for 8 is ready. Don't know abt the status of second line.

8 fighters per annum is cleared. Not 16. Newspapers have been quoting 16-20 per annum everywhere.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

It is in the same league of Rafale F3 and Super SU-30 interns of electronics and material ..

Though at lot cheaper cost both unit, maintenance and operational costs ..

Will this plane be still relevant by that time?

 

[p2prada]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

Will this plane be still relevant by that time?

It is not relevant today, forget 2019.

Think of it as a low cost replacement for Mig-21.

 

[JBH22]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

It is not relevant today, forget 2019.

Think of it as a low cost replacement for Mig-21.

So as usual will be running behind time, but this plane is enough to take on PAF JF-17, Mirage F1 upgrades.

Any future growth plans for that plane I mean to evolve it into a 5th Gen plane.

 

[cloud]

Somehow I would have preferred all the LCAs to be built from start with dual seat config(approx 200 of them), they could act as filler(for next 10-15 years) until we complete the order for 300 MKI + 300 FGFA + 150 Mig 29 + New single engine version of AMCA development(based on FGFA engine). Not that LCA is bad or something, but being good fighter it can easily fill the gap for IAF for next 10-15 years, then once we have developed the single engine version of AMCA and start manufacturing, then these LCAs could be converted to next gen trainer(and will be very good at that having all the new techs and good performance) and more optimized for handling the UAVs(via second pilot) for Ground attack and reconnaissance deep into enemy territory.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

So as usual will be running behind time, but this plane is enough to take on PAF JF-17, Mirage F1 upgrades.

Any future growth plans for that plane I mean to evolve it into a 5th Gen plane.

So you have made a promise to yourself not to read the thread and capabilities of Tejas that was hotly argued for the last 100 pages perhaps!!!!!!!

In air defence role Tejas mk-2 will have as much powerful ASEA radar as RAFALE F-3 with the same 120 Km range BVR at a third of the unit fly away cost of RAFALE and a fourth of total future upgradation and lifecycle cost of RAFALE F-3.

tejas will also be able to carry any long range stand off ground attack weapon that can be carried by Mig-29 within its range.

Since it has refueling probe and can do buddy refueling so no need for tankers either.

For the cost of one RAFALE at F-3 standard with 10 hard points one asea radar one IRST suit, one EW suit ,

we can have four Tejas with 28 hard points and three same capacity ASEA radars , three IRST suits , three Ew suits all spread across 100s of Kms across the air space.

SO you can decide for the effectiveness yourself.

RAFALE may replace Mig-,23,27 in future . that does not mean RAFALE has the same capacities as that of Mig-23 and 27.


Mig-29 K replaces sub sonic Harrier in indian naval arm, but it does not mean both have the same capacities,


In the same way


Tejas replaces Mig-21 in IAf. it does not mean both have the same capability.

tejas will remain relevant for the next thirty years in IAF in mk-2 .

Considering the PM's statement which openly says that country's falling exports and weakening rupee along with weak economic growth makes it imperative to source from India. We may not know when will IAF get RAFALE, or whether it will get it at all.

because with FGFA entering service shortly with a budget of another 20 billion in five or six years from now , Will IAF be able to afford another forex outgo of 20 billion in RAFALE deal.

the new government may ask IAf to choose between the two. As buying both at the same time means a forex out go of more than 60 billion (if you consider the total life cycle cost and crippling mid life upgrade costs) and compare it with the tejas mk-2 which will have close to 80 percent range of RAFALE , with the same TWR and same long range BVR missiles and ASEA radar.

Considering the present RAFALE deal has origins in IAF proposal for just 124 Mirage-2000 after the kargil war, with tejas mk-2 exceeding mirage-2000 by a fair margin in every parameter there is no justification for this costly RAFALE deal at this juncture when FGFA is about to enter into service with 5th gen futures and internal weapon bays with specially developed Missiles for them.




SO what more do you want ?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

It is not relevant today, forget 2019.

Think of it as a low cost replacement for Mig-21.

It is your posts that are not relevant to this thread. Not tejas to IAF.

Tejas will be relevant to IAF for another thirty years. Whatever you may post here.

And once K-10 gets finished it will have 100 percent indian components in the MLU .

External stealth weapons are going to be developed for all fighters in IAF in future ,

SO tejas too will get one, when combining it with it's close config RCS of less than 0.3 sq meter in mk-1 itself , it will be most effective plane for any role , whether air defence or ground strike compared to any other fighter that presently serves the IAF , because it will be least detectable with stealth compliant external weapon pods.

Since it has only one engine it's IRST signature too will be half of any serving IAF fighter in 2020.

 

[ersakthivel]

Somehow I would have preferred all the LCAs to be built from start with dual seat config(approx 200 of them), they could act as filler(for next 10-15 years) until we complete the order for 300 MKI + 300 FGFA + 150 Mig 29 + New single engine version of AMCA development(based on FGFA engine). Not that LCA is bad or something, but being good fighter it can easily fill the gap for IAF for next 10-15 years, then once we have developed the single engine version of AMCA and start manufacturing, then these LCAs could be converted to next gen trainer(and will be very good at that having all the new techs and good performance) and more optimized for handling the UAVs(via second pilot) for Ground attack and reconnaissance deep into enemy territory.

there is no single engine AMCA,

If you take crash stats Mig-29 shares almost the same percentage with Mig-21 . So as it gets older it is not going to improve it's record further.

orders for FGFA has been slashed from 166 to 100 plus , because of non availability of two seaters and still there is a big tussle going on between MOD and SUKHOI for equal partnership in design and R&D with both sides digging their heels in the work has been delayed by about an year on the indian FGFA version.

The PAKFAs that are flying are not flying with the engines meant for them , they are flying with older engines, official projection for FGFA specific engine to enter into bench tests is 2018.

Also we don't know whether J-20 will have lesser RCS than FGFA or PAKFA. This will have a huge impact on FGFA order , because for AMCA IAF demanded 100 percent stealth compliant design scuttling ADA designs three times. So it won't be fair on IAF to spend tens of billions on FGFA which by may have many times higher RCS than J-20. If it does it is a self defeating decision.

IAf should put the same condition of 100 percent stealth like F-22(whose frontal design J-20 copies with S shape air intakes ) on FGFA if it is to be effective against J-20. because it is entirely possible that russians may sell FGFA engines to J-20 in future considering the financial power of China.

In such a situation it will be foolish for IAF to have a FGFA which shares the same engine as that of J-20 with many times bigger frontal RCS than J-20.

So things are not set in stone for IAF like the way you interpret it to be. So need of higher number of tejas mk-1 and Mk-2 is more critical now for IAF. It is no filler stop gap measure as you think. As a stand alone platform tejas mk-2 confers class leading 4.5 the gen capabilities for IAF at a fraction of the cost .

So you don't have to treat it as a gift horse that just acts as a filler.

 

[Kyubi]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

So you have made a promise to yourself not to read the thread and capabilities of Tejas that was hotly argued for the last 100 pages perhaps!!!!!!!

In air defence role Tejas mk-2 will have as much powerful ASEA radar as RAFALE F-3 with the same 120 Km range BVR at a third of the unit fly away cost of RAFALE and a fourth of total future upgradation and lifecycle cost of RAFALE F-3.

tejas will also be able to carry any long range stand off ground attack weapon that can be carried by Mig-29 within its range.

Since it has refueling probe and can do buddy refueling so no need for tankers either.

For the cost of one RAFALE at F-3 standard with 10 hard points one asea radar one IRST suit, one EW suit ,

we can have four Tejas with 28 hard points and three same capacity ASEA radars , three IRST suits , three Ew suits all spread across 100s of Kms across the air space.

SO you can decide for the effectiveness yourself.

RAFALE may replace Mig-,23,27 in future . that does not mean RAFALE has the same capacities as that of Mig-23 and 27.


Mig-29 K replaces sub sonic Harrier in indian naval arm, but it does not mean both have the same capacities,


In the same way


Tejas replaces Mig-21 in IAf. it does not mean both have the same capability.

tejas will remain relevant for the next thirty years in IAF in mk-2 .

Considering the PM's statement which openly says that country's falling exports and weakening rupee along with weak economic growth makes it imperative to source from India. We may not know when will IAF get RAFALE, or whether it will get it at all.

because with FGFA entering service shortly with a budget of another 20 billion in five or six years from now , Will IAF be able to afford another forex outgo of 20 billion in RAFALE deal.

the new government may ask IAf to choose between the two. As buying both at the same time means a forex out go of more than 60 billion (if you consider the total life cycle cost and crippling mid life upgrade costs) and compare it with the tejas mk-2 which will have close to 80 percent range of RAFALE , with the same TWR and same long range BVR missiles and ASEA radar.

Considering the present RAFALE deal has origins in IAF proposal for just 124 Mirage-2000 after the kargil war, with tejas mk-2 exceeding mirage-2000 by a fair margin in every parameter there is no justification for this costly RAFALE deal at this juncture when FGFA is about to enter into service with 5th gen futures and internal weapon bays with specially developed Missiles for them.




SO what more do you want ?

As always u are ever present to counter argue whenever people doubt the capability of Tejas. Its high time guys who deride our indigenous project's to introspect themselves and their thoughts on foreign imports. No matter whatever may be the situation it is always beneficial to have indigenous products rather than costly imports. Exact time for the induction Rafael will may be in a couple of years from now and delay can be even more why not use this time to augment the production of LCA's and divert those enormous funds from rafael to LCA MK2, Kaveri engine and AMCA projects, as MK2 R&D is already underway we can use those funds for investing in Wind Tunnel facilities and RCS testing facilities for full scale size aircrafts..

Plz do correct me if i am wrong in using terminologies

Thank you.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Terminologies aside, What count is logic ..

There is no way India is going to win any future wars with imports, Men and Machine have to be National ..

 

[mehrotraprince]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

we can use those funds for investing in Wind Tunnel facilities and RCS testing facilities for full scale size aircrafts..

Watch this video especially from 6:25 to 6:40

April 23, 2012
Global aircraft major Boeing is setting up a transonic wind tunnel facility in Hyderabad. A transonic tunnel is a high-speed tunnel that can generate speeds up to Mach 1.4 (Mach is the speed of sound).

The DRDO is also in the process of setting up its own Rs 350-crore Hypersonic Wind Tunnel facility, also in Hyderabad.

At present the country has only one wind tunnel facility at the National Aerospace Laboratory, Bangalore, which is 40 years old. This will also be upgraded, Mr Murthy said.

Boeing to help set up transonic tunnel facility | Business Line

 

[p2prada]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

So as usual will be running behind time, but this plane is enough to take on PAF JF-17, Mirage F1 upgrades.

Any future growth plans for that plane I mean to evolve it into a 5th Gen plane.

It won't evolve into a 5th gen aircraft, but it can be upgraded to carry 5th gen avionics like the LCA Mk2 will.

 

[Defcon 1]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

It won't evolve into a 5th gen aircraft, but it can be upgraded to carry 5th gen avionics like the LCA Mk2 will.

And that is what will keep it relevant. LCA is the only non chinese fighter program in the world that is not in trouble. It has the most growth potential.

 

[jmj_overlord]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

It won't evolve into a 5th gen aircraft, but it can be upgraded to carry 5th gen avionics like the LCA Mk2 will.

so it also means that stealth features can't be incorporated into lca in it's future upgrades as well ?

 

[Defcon 1]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

so it also means that stealth features can't be incorporated into lca in it's future upgrades as well ?

Depends on what you call stealth features. Scope of design changes will be very limited. However other solutions to enchance stealth could be used such as ram coatings, gold tinted canopy, radar blocker in the intakes. However, this will only convert the aircraft to semi stealth. Lack of internal weapons will also hurt Tejas.

 

[p2prada]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

And that is what will keep it relevant. LCA is the only non chinese fighter program in the world that is not in trouble. It has the most growth potential.

Yes, but there will be a half a decade difference or more in terms of maturity to existing models.

For eg: J-10B SP deliveries with AESA is happening today while LCA Mk2 will happen only at the end of this decade while western types have such similar equipment today already and in enough numbers. Meaning, there will be a 5-10 years difference with China itself.

LCA's growth potential is questionable since it depends on IAF's involvement, but it can form the link to the export market which we will sorely need by the next decade.

so it also means that stealth features can't be incorporated into lca in it's future upgrades as well ?

Steatlh? No. But it will receive periodic electronics upgrades like AESA.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

It already have stealth feature as of now, Radar absorbing coating, Internal ECM suit and many more features to be added, Just like Rafale it will evolve with time, Not to mention Tejas MK3 may feature stealth design ..

Also, MK1 will be upgraded to MK2 standered in near future, It will include Radar and Avionics and ECM suit ..

so it also means that stealth features can't be incorporated into lca in it's future upgrades as well ?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: LCA set to join IAF

Yes, but there will be a half a decade difference or more in terms of maturity to existing models.

For eg: J-10B SP deliveries with AESA is happening today while LCA Mk2 will happen only at the end of this decade while western types have such similar equipment today already and in enough numbers. Meaning, there will be a 5-10 years difference with China itself.

LCA's growth potential is questionable since it depends on IAF's involvement, but it can form the link to the export market which we will sorely need by the next decade.

There is an MOD in india to make sure IAF will give it's total involvement for the future development of tejas. MOD babus will easily see through the import lobby game if IAF is not involved with total commitment to the future tejas development effort.

India is not a banana republic. And certainly I don't expect future IAF chiefs to be foolish enough not to participate in tejas development effort.

Steatlh? No. But it will receive periodic electronics upgrades like AESA.

End of the decade is just 5 years away not fifteen years away, SO it means the time lag for ASEA equipped TEJAS and it's western counter parts is just 5 years.

As of today there is no ASEA equipped TYPHOON or RAFALE or SU-35 in any European or russian air force.

And we are yet to know the capabilities of chinese ASEA as there is no export sale to verify it.

TEJAS's growth potential into 4.5 th gen mk-2 and 5th gen Mk-3 is guaranteed if we go by the way how IAF flogged the last beat of life of every Mig-21.

tejas is ten times more versatile platform than mig-21 and all the tech and weapon system developed for AMCA will be readily available for Tejas.

Last but not the least. There are no more LCAs in india. What exists as an end product of the so called Light Combat Aircraft program goes by the name of TEJAS not LCA

The clean config frontal RCS of so called 5th gen PAKFA is supposed to be 0.3 sq meter.

Tejas has lesser clean config RCS than PAKFA even in mk-1 form.

If we add two stealth external weapon pods like the concept released for Silent RAFALE for Tejas mk-2,

chances are the total RCS of Tejas mk-2 with those stealth external weapon pods will be,

less than that of the present PAKFA making tejas as good as the 5th gen FGFA on which IAF is going to spend close to 20 billion dollar for the all crucial air to air missions.

SO you can call tejas mk-2 stealth as it have no radar friendly surface like canard or exposes engine blade and shaping of tejas mk-2 will be carried out using latest tech twenty years after tejas mk-1 shape was done with a clean config RCS of 0.3 sq meter even without those huge anechoic chambers.

So there is nothing wrong in expecting tejas mk-2 with stealth component external weapon pods to have a lesser RCS than the PAKFA or FGFA that will fly for IAF.

Unlike Grippen tejas has a huge under wing space to fit those external weapon pods covering two pylons with total load bearing capacity of 2 tons on each side of the wings.

So nothing prevents it from carrying 4 or 6 long range BVRs in 5th gen stealth mode in future.

Once development work of tejas mk-2 finishes I am sure ADA will go for the exteranl stealth compliant weapon pod as all 4.5th gen fighter makers in future will go for it.

Still tejas mk-2 will come at a significantly lower cost than Grippen NG making it a compelling export proposition for many countries looking to replace those thousands of Migs and Mirages in a cost effective way with proven tech.

Unlike grippen whatever tech like fly by light even better composite tech and new BVRs and ground weapons developed for AMCA will be available for tejas mk-2 ,

Last but not the least within a decade GTRE will develop a 1000 KG 100 Kn engine for AMCA and it will be offered for in first or second engine change time making tejas mk-2 a 100 percent indian platform,

unlike Grippen NG which has significant European and American components that can fall under sanctions at the drop of the hat,making tejas mk-2 even more attractive for export customers.

I see whatever possible that can be done on tejas .

And you express your wish list of whatever should not be done on tejas to make it a more potent platform