ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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s_bman

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Thursday, 26 November 2009
NEWS FLASH... PV-5 Tejas twin-seater makes a successful 30 minute flight!!

Air Marshall Tyagi (centre) with Dr D Banerjee (DRDO, CC Aerospace). Rohit Verma is next to Tyagi, while Gp Capt Tyagi flanks Banerjee.


PV-5 takes off from the HAL airfield in Bangalore. The twin-seater has not yet been painted... the yellow is the colour of the composites from which most of the skin is made


This is the DRDO release, issued at 18:30 hours today:

TEJAS TRAINER MAKES SUCCESSFUL MAIDEN FLIGHT

Two seater (Trainer) version of Tejas (PV-5) made its maiden flight on 26 Nov 09. The flight took off from HAL,Airport at 1300 hrs. The successful maiden flight covered an altitude of 9km and Mach number 0.85. The prototype was flown by Gp Capt Ritu Raj Tyagi of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC). Air Cmde Rohit Varma, Project Director (Flight Test) flew in the rear cockpit. Wg Cdr (Retd) PK Raveendran, Group Director (Flight Test) was the Test Director. Extensive preparatory work that has gone in resulted in the first flight profile being executed with clock work precision. All the objectives set out for the flight were achieved and all the systems on board the new prototype performed well through out the sortie.

Successful flight of Tejas trainer is a major milestone for Tejas programme and a significant achievement for all the stake holders in the programme, which include ADA, HAL, NAL, ADE, CEMILAC, DGAQA, Indian Air Force and Indian Navy. With the Tejas scheduled to be cleared for Initial Operations with the Indian Air Force by end 2010, successful maiden flight of Tejas trainer has given a fillip to the programme. The trainer when fully developed will have the full operational capability from the rear cockpit as well. As Tejas Trainer has a lot of commonality with Tejas Naval version, even Tejas Navy programme would see accelerated progress as a result of the successful first flight.

As the first flight coincided with the programme review by the Air Force, the historic event was witnessed by Air Mshl NV Tyagi, AVSM, VM, VSM, who was the Chairman of the Review Committee along with Mr Ashok Nayak, Chairman, HAL, Chief Controller, DRDO Dr D Banerjee and Mr PS Subramanyam, Programme Director (Combat Aircraft) & Director, ADA.

Broadsword: NEWS FLASH... PV-5 Tejas twin-seater makes a successful 30 minute flight!!
 

icecoolben

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I am pretty confident ADA is doing a really nice job of project management albiet at a slower race, for an R&D sector that won't be getting benefits financially or global recognition even for a very successful tejas programme. It will be HAL that would be the lead contractor and the company is liable to much more than we speak of .

For initial operational clearance u need 1000 fligt hours, the more aircraft prototypes and production models u have the quicker u achieve the target and for producing more aircraft u need more funding. Example, take the technology demosurator x-35 made its first fligt on x-35 in january 2001. Tejas made its by february 2001. The f-35 flew its first production variant by 2006, same as tejas. The american plane is slated for ioc by 2012, basically and final clearance by 2016. for an aircraft to reach more hours of flight it needs more aircraft first and good funding to achieve them in addition to spare supply. The f-35 has 13 production models to work on, testing its parameters and fine tuning its controls. The tejas has only 7, but is up neck and neck regarding the time-lines. the loss of an aircraft due to crash would be crippling for the tejas programme. So there is no harm in ada being a little cautious. For producing flying planes u need funds, lockheed and boeing were initially given $750 million dollars each for developing their joint strike fighter prototypes, the present f-35 program's huge costs are still classified owing to industrial sensitivies. But our program's entire costs stand at $ 1.2 billion, which is quite modest by any standards. Lockheed is given orders for prototypes by different countries, but the sole sponsor for our programme is the mod, which is entrenched in beauracratic hurdles now, than budget crunch before. If it had not been the iaf order for initial 20 aircrafts the program would have gotten delayed even further. Pv-5 was supposed to be the first naval prototype. But due to absence of naval fundin then, it could not be modified into the proposed naval version. If it had been the case with another contractor like mig and sukoi after disintegration of soviet union, they would have poured their own money to build prototypes but not Hal. Eventough it sits on lump cash reserves would prefer to wait for user/government money than spend a little from its pocket to speed up its program. Take an example of Hal's programs Nal saras only two prototypes one crashed, hjt-40. This tendency is which forced the very creation of Ada. So feeding it is even more essential.ada to my reconing has done a great part of hal's job by building the entire indian aerospace infrastructure.

The impetus for the naval version is now here the construction of 2-3 carriers have been planned and started. Because of the Rs 900 cr input by the navy, the design and development of naval tejas has gained momentum. The method of basing the naval version on the trainer version was an ingenious move on ada's part. For trainer's airframe should have more than 10,000 hours lifetime, which would require thicker skin stronger carriage, longer life endurance engine. Thus ada is not just working fast is also working economically, efficently as well. the pv-5 was suppose to have been the first naval variant, but anyway naval prototypes are up in the pipe-line np-1 twin-seater and np-2 single seater.

Finally Ada has all that it needs to build the three primary variants for air force,navy and trainers. What it needed desperately early on, funds, technology and consultants are available as well . All it needs now is our nation's support for its programme through private participation and public support. In this age of citizen journalism, the power of the individual can never be taken for granted, we should do our best not to under-write the programme and feed it with moral support, even if we were simple blogers.
 

Vladimir79

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Sir, it still hasnt reached its 1000 hours of flight for IOC...but only 1226 test flights. This is our first modern aircraft and we didnt have enough consultancies during the testing period because of sanctions. That is why the HAL and ADA dosent want much of problems.
Well look at the F-22 test programme as a comparison, 2,400 sorties for 4,500 hours for the whole EMD. The average sortie is 1.87 hours, F-35 is 1.4. LCA is averaging around half an hour. The legs are far too short to get anything done. To hit 3000 you will need 6000 sorties at the rate you are going. Number of sorties don't mean diddly for LCA unless it adds up to hours.
 

p2prada

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Well look at the F-22 test programme as a comparison, 2,400 sorties for 4,500 hours for the whole EMD. The average sortie is 1.87 hours, F-35 is 1.4. LCA is averaging around half an hour. The legs are far too short to get anything done. To hit 3000 you will need 6000 sorties at the rate you are going. Number of sorties don't mean diddly for LCA unless it adds up to hours.
Exactly. We need more prototypes(atleast 3 more) flying for 20-25 hours a month if we need to get anything done in time. Our present speed is too less.
 

icecoolben

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Previously v didn't have funding to build prototypes for navy. But its here now and v can expect fully developed naval aircraft around 2012.
 

enlightened1

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The following is a post from gogbot, an Indian member of a Pakistani Forum. He has put a commendable effort in analyzing the LCA Program. All credit therefore goes to gogbot. It is a must read for all the critics of the LCA program...
=======================================================



The LCA program Declared a failure, with cost overruns, decades of delays.
But how much of these claims is actually true ?
For the nest few posts i intend to explore what makes the Tejas a failure and what makes it a success.


First a brief overview.

The Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is the world's smallest, light weight, multi-role combat aircraft. The LCA is designed to meet the requirements of Indian Air Force as its frontline multi-mission single-seat tactical aircraft to replace the MiG-21 series of aircraft.

The LCA program was launched in 1985. The development effort for the LCA is spearheaded by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) under the Department of Defence Research & Development. ADA’s responsibilities include project design, project monitoring and promoting the development of advanced aeronautic technologies of relevance to the LCA.

The Indian government's "self-reliance" goals for the LCA include indigenous development of the three most sophisticated — and hence most challenging — systems: the fly-by-wire (FBW) flight control system (FCS), multi-mode pulse-doppler radar, and afterburning turbofan engine
I want to address the First Issue of its supposed failure.
Chapter 1:The Delays

Many people have made exuberant claims that the program was 10 years delayed to 30 years delayed.
This is simply not the case, if one examines the facts.


The LCA design was finalised in 1990 as a small delta-winged machine with "relaxed static stability" (RSS) to enhance maneuverability performance.
It took 5 years to just design the Aircraft. No small feat considering India's financial status as well as its Lack of experience in making the plane since the second generation fighter (HF-24 Marut) in the late 50's.

One important aspect to note is that only after the Aircraft was designed did any sort of time table for induction even be drafted..
so technically this is when the program started.


Phase 1 would focus on "proof of concept" and would comprise the design, development and testing (DDT) of two technology demonstrator aircraft (TD-1 and TD-2)

Phase 1 commenced in 1990 and HAL started work on the technology demonstrators in mid-1991; however, a financial crunch resulted in full-scale funding not being authorized until April 1993, with significant work on FSED Phase 1 commencing in June. The first technology demonstrator, TD-1, was rolled out on 17 November 1995
Much of the Initial problems with the LCA were financial, leading to its first few delays.

So five years in The first prototype rolled out. Program still very much operating in a reasonable time frame.

The Ministry had stated, in December 1994, that the LCA was expected to enter into squadron services with Initial Operational Clearance by 2002 and with Final Operational Clearance by 2005 provided Government approved Phase-II of FSED in 1995 and accorded clearance for production in 1997. Since proposal for approval of Phase-II of FSED was yet to be submitted to the Government, the chances of meeting the induction schedule of LCA by 2002/2005 were remote.

The first prototype of LCA rolled out on 17 November 1995. Two aircraft technology demonstrators were powered by single GE F404/F2J3 augmented turbofan engines. Regular flights with the state-of-the-art "Kaveri" engine, being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in Bangalore, were planned for 2002, although by mid-1999 the Kaveri engine had yet to achieve the required thrust-to-weight ratio.
This schedule puts the LCA program with a 15 year development time frame.
The average time frame for Development of any such aircraft.

Following India's nuclear weapons tests in early 1998, the United States placed an embargo on the sale of General Electric 404 jet engines which are to power the LCA. The US also denied the fly-by-wire system for the aircraft sold by the US firm Lockheed-Martin. As of June 1998 the first flight of the LCA had been delayed due to systems integration tests. The first flight awaits completion of the Digital Flight Control Systems, being developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE).

The Ministry explained, in February 1999, that delay in conducting first flight of first technology demonstrator was the main reason for not seeking sanction for Phase-II of FSED. However, clearance for an interim Phase-II from the Government was underway and Phase-II would be concurrently undertaken with the last two years of Phase-I. With this arrangement, Initial Operational Clearance in 2003 and Final Operational Clearance in 2005 would be realised.

On 04 January 2001, India's Light Combat Aircraft LCA flew for the first time. The LCA completed its first batch of tests in 12 flights instead of 15 - ahead of schedule - on June 2, 2001. There has been some delay in Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Project which is mainly due to lack of development experience, non-availability of ready infrastructure, foreign exchange crunch of 1992, sanctions imposed by USA in 1998 and technological complexities. The first technology demonstrator has flown on January 04, 2001 and successfully demonstrated to international experts during Aero India 2001. Further development was in progress for its timely induction in Indian Air Force.
Not only the international Embargo there were problems with The Radar.

Due to delay in development of MMR, government have come out with the collaboration with IAI for development of Radar the sensor for the new radar is supposed to be EL/M-2052 AESA from Elta and the remaining item and software will be combination of MMR and IAI developed products. Varadarajan, (Director — LRDE) has said that LRDE has initiated development of active electronically scanning array radar
The MMR was eventually replaced In favor of the more advanced EL/M-2052 AESA RADAR

There were also problems with the engine.
In mid-2004, the Kaveri failed its high-altitude tests in Russia, ending the last hopes of introducing it with the first production Tejas aircraft.

This eventually led to the Kaveri program to be de-linked from the Tejas program. And developed Independent. whilst the Tejas MK-1 would fly using the The Same GE engine used int the prototypes.

The Hindu : Karnataka News : Kaveri engine programme delinked from the Tejas

The Tejas continued its development to this end and now after a delay of a little over 5 years. The Tejas is finally stated to see An IOC in 2010.

So what have we established in this chapter.
The Tejas was not delayed by over a decade but really only 5 years.
People need to actually take a look at the Tejas time line to realize, That the development cycle of 17 years. while slightly to much is not a giant mess up as some would have u believe


Lets examine the development of a similar plane. The Dassault Rafale

The development of the Rafael and is in fact a similar ambition to that of the LCA.

Both planes were an attempt to improve upon the Successful Mirage aircraft.

Both were supposed to be operated on carriers as well, as in the air force

Both were built with the Intent of having a completely indigenous program

Both had a single seater as well as twin seater version

The difference are clearly the level of technology available to be employed in each aircrafts design.



# 1983, France awarded Dassault a contract for two Avion de Combat eXpérimental (ACX) demonstrators.

# 1985 France formally withdraws from Eurofighter programme, committing to Rafale project.

# 1986 July 4: First flight of Rafale A; December: Development of SNECMA M88 engines commences

# 1988 April: First order signed (for Rafale C prototype).

# 1990 February: Flight tests of M88 begin

# 1991 May 19: First flight of Armée de l'Air single seat prototype (Rafale C); December 12: First flight of Aéronavale prototype (Rafale M)

# 1992 Rafale M carrier trials programme begins

# 1993 March: First contract for production aircraft signed. April: Start of carrier compatibility trials with Foch. April 30: First flight of Armée de l'Air twin seat prototype (Rafale B)

# 1995 June: First MICA fired from Rafale in self guided mode. July: OSF system and helmet-mounted sight/display installed and tested. September: Rafale M tested on board carrier (4th series). November: First non-stop long-range flight by Rafale B01 (3,020 nm in under 6 hours 30 minutes). October: Final land-based carrier test series of Rafale M in the USA. December: First production model fuselage assembly.

# 1996 March: M88 engine "flightworthiness" qualified. April: Production suspended, restarted in January 1997 following cost reductions. May: Low level tests with digital terrain database. July: Spectra electronic warfare system integration tests in anechoic chamber. November: Spectra flight tested. December: First deliveries of production standard engines.

# 1997 February: Rafale B01 flight tested in heavyweight configuration (2 Apache ASMs, three 2,000l drop tanks, two Magic and two MICA AAMs). May: First inertially-guided MICA firing. June: Flight testing of Spectra countermeasures system. October: First production RBE2 radar flown for the first time. November: Inertially-guided firing of missiles against two targets, with aircraft-to-missile link, with countermeasures.

# 1998 June: Qualification of MICA fire control system. Proposed initial operational capability evaluated by Navy and Air Force pilots flying Rafale B01 and M02 development aircraft. November 24: First flight of production Rafale (a Rafale B)

# 1999 May: First test launch of SCALP EG cruise missile. July 6: First deck landing of Charles de Gaulle afgan. July 7: First flight of production Rafale M

# 2000 July 20: First Rafale M delivered to Flotille 12F

# 2002 Rafale M entered service with 12F (Aeronavale, evaluation)

# 2004 Full service entry with 12F (Navy); September 9: First Meteor GHTM (General Handling Training Missiles) carriage trials by Rafale M from CEV Istres; Juneecember: Three Rafale Bs delivered to CEAM, Mont de Marsan

# 2005 September 11: First Meteor GHTM carriage trials by Rafale M from the carrier Charles de Gaulle.

# 2006 Summer: Formation of EC 1/7 with 8–10 aircraft

# 2007 Full service entry (Air Force) expected with EC7; First landing of Rafale M on US Navy carrier USS Enterprise

# 2008 Rafale qualified to full F3 standard
This is Dassault a veteran aircraft manufacturer with more money more, more technology and more experience. Yet their development is well over 15 years. HAL has performed admirably given the the huge list of challenges it has to overcome to bring the Tejas to where it is now.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AS we move on to the next chapter i would like to mention that The total programme cost for the Rafale, as of 2008, is around €39.6 billion.

This compared to the LCA programme cost of just US$1.2 billion.
Which was supposed to accomplish the same as the Rafael \

India rules out foreign help for Tejas LCA

Antony says 48 billion rupees ($1.2 billion) has so far been spent on the LCA project. However, this has now been pushed back to 2010 because of several technological setbacks and bureaucratic red tape.
***

Chapter 2:Cost over runs ?



Earmarked my many as The LCA programs second sing of Failure. Is the 500 % increase in the costs of the project.

The original project cost, incidentally, was estimated to be only Rs 560 crore. The government so far has sanctioned Rs 5,489.78 crore for the development of LCA technology
Rs 5,489.78 crore which translates to about 1.2 billion dollars(depending on the exchange tare)



Often said to be India's white whale, criticized for its gross inefficiency.
But what do these numbers actually mean.

Rs.560 crore is roughly $118,921,214 . Or about the cost of a single Euro fighter typhoon.:what:

Now don't get me wrong i have faith in our scientist. And these figures have not been inflation adjusted.
But the amount of money committed to the LCA project to begin with was peanuts compared to all other development programs arround the world.

Most people would consider, it a miracle that we got anything out of this program at all, considering the gross underestimation of the funding required.

But forget all that, the costs as they stand today amount to Rs 5,489.78 crore which translates to about 1.2 billion dollars. Critics rally to this figure. "A billion dollars clearly money has been misspent here. ?"

Lets examine some other development costs of more advanced and experienced agencies from around the world.

Dassault Rafale
The total programme cost, as of 2008, is around €39.6 billion, which translates to a unit programme cost of approximately €138.5 million. The unit flyaway price as of 2008 is €64 million for C version (Air Force), and €70 million for the Navy version.
A plane i have mentioned in the previous chapter , which was built with the same ambitions as the LCA.

Eurofighter Typhoon
1988 the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces told the UK House of Commons that the European Fighter Aircraft would "be a major project, costing £3.3 billion development costs
Mind you this does not include the development costs of the EJ2000 engine otherwise the Costs would have been well in excess of
$15 billion

This next development cost high lights the disparity in the amount of money spent on the LCA programe

UAE funded the entire $3 billion Block 60 development costs, and in exchange will receive royalties if any of the Block 60 aircraft are sold to other nations.
Dubai 2007: UAE shows off its most advanced Falcons
This not a new plane. it was the cost of developing the upgrades for one of the most staple planes in the west. Mind you a new engine was selected attributing to the high costs.

But on that note, it is important to understand that the engine is often the most expensive development cost of the plane.

Development of the Kaveri engine was projected in 1989 to cost Rs. 382.81 crores (nearly US$82 million). In Dec. 2004, it was revealed that the GTRE had spent over Rs. 1,300 crores (around US$295 million) on developing the Kaveri. Furthermore, the Cabinet Committee on Security judged that the Kaveri would not be installed on the LCA before 2012, and revised its estimate for the projected total development cost to Rs. 2,839 crores (more than US$640 million)
That is about half of the money spent of the LCA project. And although it was branded a failure as well. This is in fact not the case.

Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister M Natarajan said nearly 90 to 93 per cent of the expected performance had been realised and the government had recently floated an expression of interest to seek partners to move the programme further
The only reason the engine is not being used right now in its leaky state. which by the way still produces more trust than the enigne used in the Dassault Rafale. Is because The LCA and Kaveri ending up being 200 kg overweight each. Which combined ended up jeopardizing the Amount of Weapons that could be could carry.
Eighter an Increase in trust or a decrease in weight can get the Engine back on track.

But back to costs.
At the end of the day, with all the claims of cost escalation.
The Fact remains.

In December 1996, A. P. J. Abdul Kalam, the then Scientific Adviser, calculated unit costs of US$21 million. At the end of 2001, Dr. Kota Harinarayana, director of the ADA and of the LCA programme, estimated the unit cost for the LCA (for an expected order of 220 aircraft) to be between US$17–20 million, and once production ramped up, that could drop to US$15 million.

However, by 2001 others were indicating that the LCA would cost US$24 million (in excess of Rs. 100 crores [Rs. 1,000,000,000] per aircraft). Considering cost escalations, some aviation experts feel that when the aircraft comes out, it could cost upwards of US$35 million apiece. A Rs. 2,000 crores (over US$450 million) order for 20 Tejas aircraft would represent a unit procurement cost of US$22.6 million for each, which would be consistent with Abdul Kalam's estimates. At a price tag of around US$ 20 to 32 million(Rs. 100-150 crores), the Tejas will be much cheaper than other 4.5 generation fighter planes. (By comparison, the Times of India quoted the costs French Rafale as Rs. 270 crores -US$61 million).

Indian navy has okayed the placement of an order for six Naval LCAs. At an approximate cost of US$31.09 million(Rs 150 crore) per aircraft.
In actually the development costs often help determine the cost of the Plane by the basis of orders.

Whiles the LCA is available for a little over 20 Million dollars.

Most jets around the world excluding the Russians and Chines.
Don't sell a plane for less that 60 million dollars(read back to Dassault Rafale) and some times go upwards to 100 million(typhoon).
Which raises the question how much did the companies really spend of their development to justify such high costs.

Cost over runs ?. What cost over runs?
It is a matter of point of View.


Chapter 3:"Kaveri"
 

RPK

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Tejas trainer makes successful maiden flight

Bangalore, Nov 26 (PTI) The two-seater (trainer) version of indigenously designed and developed fighter aircraft Tejas Light Combat Aircraft made its maiden flight today.

The flight covered an altitude of nine km and Mach number 0.85, according to a Defence Research and Development Organisation statement.

The prototype was flown by Gp Capt Ritu Raj Tyagi of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC). Air Cmde Rohit Varma, Project Director (Flight Test) flew in the rear cockpit. Wg Cdr (Retd) PK Raveendran, Group Director (Flight Test) was the Test Director, it said.

Extensive preparatory work resulted in the first flight profile being executed with clock work precision, DRDO said.

All the objectives set out for the flight were achieved and e- systems on board the new prototype performed well throughout the sortie.
 

enlightened1

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Chapter 3: Kaveri

Like the river it is named after this engine and its story also seems to stretch on as far as the eye can see.

This is the most important and difficult part of the entire and LCA project.

To develop and then manufacture a fully indigenous engine. for use in the Military aircraft.

an ambition that has been riddled with years of delay. Failure to create a fully realized version of the designed engine has been the single greatest contributor to the Delay of the LCA programe.

A little summary for our less informed members.

In 1986, the Indian Defence Ministry's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was authorized to launch a programme to develop an indigenous powerplant for the Light Combat Aircraft. It had already been decided early in the LCA programme to equip the prototype aircraft with the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 afterburning turbofan engine, but if this parallel program was successful, it was intended to equip the production aircraft with this indigenous engine.

The DRDO assigned the lead development responsibility to its Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), which had some experience in developing jet engines. It had developed the GTX37-14U afterburning turbojet, which first ran in 1977, and was the first jet engine to be designed entirely in India. A turbofan derivative, the GTX37-14UB, followed. The GTRE returned to turbojet technology with the greatly redesigned, but unsatisfactory, GTX-35.

For the LCA programme, the GTRE would again take up a turbofan design which it designated the GTX-35VS "Kaveri" (named after the Kaveri River). Full-scale development was authorised in April 1989 in what was then expected to be a 93-month programme projected to cost 382 crores (nearly US$82 million at the time).
Contrary to popular belief this was not India's first ever engine.

Design and development of a "demonstrator" gas turbine engine—GTX 37-14U—for fighter aircraft. Performance trials commenced in 1977 and the "demonstrator phase" was completed in 1981. The GTX 37-14U was "configured" and "optimized" to build a "low by-pass ratio jet engine" for "multirole performance aircraft. This engine was dubbed GTX 37-14U B.
However the GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri, would be the country's most advanced and capable engine.

But the Engine more than any other, has had the failure tag attached to it, because frankly the deadline has long passed and there is nothing to show for it or is there.


Lets examine what Kind of engine the Kaveri really is.

Design

The Kaveri is a low-bypass-ratio (BPR) afterburning turbofan engine featuring a six-stage core high-pressure (HP) compressor with variable inlet guide vanes (IGVs), a three-stage low-pressure (LP) compressor with transonic blading, an annular combustion chamber, and cooled single-stage HP and LP turbines. The development model is fitted with an advanced convergent-divergent ("con-di") variable nozzle, but the GTRE hopes to fit production Tejas aircraft with an axisymmetric, multi-axis thrust-vectoring nozzle to further enhance the LCA's agility. The core Turbojet engine of the Kaveri is the Kabini, named after the Kabini River (which is a tributary of the Kaveri river).

The general arrangement of the Kaveri is very similar to other contemporary combat engines, such as the Eurojet EJ200, General Electric F414, and Snecma M88. At present, the peak turbine inlet temperature is designed to be a little lower than its peers, but this is to enable the engine to be flat-rated to very high ambient temperatures. Consequently, the bypass ratio that can be supported, even with a modest fan pressure ratio, is only about 0.16:1, which means the engine is a "'leaky' turbojet" like the F404.

The Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for the demanding Indian operating environment, which ranges from hot desert to the highest mountain range in the world. The GTRE's design envisions achieving a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1, which it believes will permit the Tejas to "supercruise" (cruise supersonically without the use of the afterburner). The Kaveri is a variable-cycle, flat-rated engine and has 13% higher thrust than the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 engines equipping the LCA prototypes.

Plans also already exist for derivatives of the Kaveri, including a non-afterburning version for an advanced jet trainer, and a high-bypass-ratio turbofan based on the Kabini core. Another concept being considered is an enlarged version of the Tejas with two engines fitted with fully vectoring nozzles, which might make the vertical tail redundant (the Tejas has no horizontal tail).

An indigenous Full-Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) unit, called Kaveri Digital Engine Control Unit (KADECU) has been developed by the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Bangalore. The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) of Avadi was responsible for the design and development of the Tejas aircraft-mounted accessory gear box (AMAGB) and the power take-off (PTO) shaft.
A lot of money the largest chunk of the LCA programe in fact and time has gone into trying to create the GTX-35VS Kaveri.

suffice to say things did not go according to plan.

it is known that the Kaveri has had a tendency to "throw" turbine blades, which required securing blades from SNECMA (as well as digital engine control systems).

Continuing development snags with the Kaveri resulted in the 2003 decision to procure the uprated F404-GE-IN20 engine for the eight pre-production Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft and two naval prototypes. The ADA awarded General Electric a US$105 million contract in February 2004 for development engineering and production of 17 F404-IN20 engines, delivery of which is to begin in 2006.

In mid-2004, the Kaveri failed its high-altitude tests in Russia, ending the last hopes of introducing it with the first production Tejas aircraft.This unfortunate development led the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) to order 40 more IN20 engines in 2005 for the first 20 production aircraft, and to openly appeal for international participation in completing development of the Kaveri. In February 2006, the ADA awarded a contract to SNECMA for technical assistance in working out the Kaveri's problems. At that time, the DRDO had hoped to have the Kaveri engine ready for use on the Tejas by 2009-10.

The Kaveri program has attracted much criticism due to its ambitious objective, protracted development time, cost and time overruns, and the DRDO's lack of clarity and openness in admitting problems.Much of the criticism of the LCA program has been aimed at the Kaveri and Multi-Mode Radar programs.

There has been much criticism of the degree of realism in the DRDO's planning schedules for various elements of the LCA programme, most particularly for the Kaveri development effort. France's SNECMA, with over half a century of successful jet engine development experience, took nearly 13 years to bring the Rafale fighter's M88 engine to low-volume production after bench testing had begun; a similar timespan for the less-experienced GTRE would see Kaveri production beginning no earlier than 2009.

Another criticism has been DRDO's reluctance to admit problems in the engine and its resistance to involve foreign engine manufacturers until the problems became too large to handle.
Lets face it, if this didn't happen, then the LCA would have been inducted already and i would not be typing this post.

This is where LCA program lets us down. where many of its problems arose. Its like giving birth to a baby with its Heart(engine) and Brain(radar) not fully functioning. You could see how that could be interpreted. well as a dead(failure)

BUT its isn't a baby, The LCA is machine and in machines parts can be replaced(as was the case with the Radar), and parts can be mended(engine).

So it was that in recent years, DRDO has been hard at work tryig to get the dam thing completed.

The Kaveri is still in development, and reports indicate that it will be ready to fly by 2009.Testing and certification for use on the Tejas is expected to take some more time after that. Till then, the first two squadrons of Tejas will be powered by the GE404 engine.

Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister M Natarajan said nearly 90 to 93 per cent of the expected performance had been realised and the government had recently floated an expression of interest to seek partners to move the programme further.

DRDO has reportedly been able to develop single crystal blades, which represent a major technological achievement for engine development. Production and integrating this technology into the engine is expected to take some more time.

Kaveri has already undergone 1,700 hours of tests and has been sent twice to Russia to undergo high-altitude tests for which India has no facility. The engine is also being tested to power the next generation of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles.

In September 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to selected. Development of the Kaveri by the GRTE would continue for other future applications.

It was announced in November 2008 that the Kaveri engine will be installed on LCA by December 2009, apparently for tests only.
"Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister M Natarajan said nearly 90 to 93 per cent of the expected performance had been realised"

well that's a whole lot better then the alternative of using another foreign engine.

But enough of all this lets just get some cold hard figures on the engine. as well as comparison to other engins the IAF also uses or could use.

Specification (GTX-35VS Kaveri)
General characteristics

* Type: Afterburning turbofan
* Length: 137.4 in (3490 mm)
* Diameter: 35.8 in (910 mm)
* Dry weight: 2,427 lb (1,100 kg) [Production model goal: 2,100 lb (950 kg)]

Components

* Compressor: two-spool, with low-pressure (LP) and high-pressure (HP) axial compressors:
o LP compressor with 3 fan stages and transonic blading
o HP compressor with 6 stages, including variable inlet guide vanes and first two stators

* Combustors: annular, with dump diffuser and air-blast fuel atomisers
* Turbine: 1 LP stage and 1 HP stage

Performance

* Maximum Thrust:
o Military thrust (throttled):11,687 lbf (52.0 kN) [Goal: 13,500 lbf (60.0 kN) ]
o Full afterburner:18,210 lbf (81.0 kN) [Goal: 20,200 lbf (90.0 kN)]
* Specific fuel consumption:
o Military thrust: 0.78 lb/(lbf•h) (79.52 kg/(kN·h))
o Full afterburner: 2.03 lb/(lbf•h) (207.00 kg/(kN·h))
* Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8:1 (76.0 N/kg)

Engine cycle

* Airflow: 172 lb/s (78.0 kg/s)
* Bypass ratio: 0.16:1 [Goal: Between 0.3:1 & 0.4:1]
* Overall pressure ratio: 21.5:1 [Goal: 27:1]
* LP compressor pressure ratio: 3.4:1 [Goal: 4:1]
* HP compressor pressure ratio: 6.4:1
* Turbine entry temperature: 2,218-2,601 °F (1,214-1,427 °C; 1,487-1,700 K) [Goal: 3,357 °F (1,847 °C; 2,120 K)]
The Saturn AL-31 is a family of military turbofan engines. It was developed by Lyulka, now NPO Saturn, of Russia (former Soviet Union), originally for the Sukhoi Su-27 'Flanker' air superiority fighter. It produces a total thrust of 123 kN (27,600 lb) with afterburning in the AL-31F, 137 kN (30,800 lb) in the AL-31FM (AL-35F) and 142 kN (32,000 lb) in the AL-37FU variants. Currently it powers all Flanker derivatives and the Chengdu J-10 multirole jet fighter which has been developed in China.

Specifications (AL-31F)
General characteristics

* Type: Two-shaft afterburning turbofan
* Length: 4990 mm
* Diameter: 905 mm inlet; 1280 mm maximum external
* Dry weight: 1570 kg(Russia standard), 1800 kg(French standard)

Components

* Compressor: 4 fan and 9 compressor stages
* Bypass ratio: 0.59:1
* Turbine: 2 single-staged turbines

Performance

* Maximum Thrust:
o 16,754 lbf (74.5 kN) military thrust
o 27,557 lbf (122.6 kN) with afterburner
* Specific fuel consumption:
o Military thrust: 0.67 lb/(lbf·h)
o Full afterburner: 1.92 lb/(lbf·h)
* Thrust-to-weight ratio: 8 (Russia standard), 7 (French standard)
Specification (F404-GE-402)
General characteristics

* Type: Afterburning turbofan
* Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
* Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)
* Dry weight: 2,282 lb (1,036 kg)

Components

* Compressor: Axial compressor with 3 fan and 7 compressor stages
* Bypass ratio: 0.34:1
* Turbine: 1 low-pressure and 1 high-pressure stage

Performance

* Maximum Thrust:
o 11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
o 17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner
* Overall pressure ratio: 26:1
* Specific fuel consumption:
o Military thrust: 0.81 lb/(lbf·h) (82.6 kg/(kN·h))
o Full afterburner: 1.74 lb/(lbf·h) (177.5 kg/(kN·h))
* Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8:1 (76.0 N/kg)
The SNECMA M53 is an afterburning turbofan engine developed for the Dassault Mirage 2000 fighter by Snecma. The engine is in service with different air forces, including the latest Mirage 2000-5 and 2000-9 multirole fighters.

Variants

* M53-5 - powered initial Mirage 2000C models
o Dry thrust: 54.0 kN (5,500 kgp / 12,230 lbf)
o Afterburning thrust: 86.3 kN (8,800 kgp / 19,400 lbf)

* M53-P2 - powered later Mirage 2000C models and used to upgrade earlier models [2]
o Dry thrust: 64.7 kN (6,600 kgp / 14,500 lbf)
o Afterburning thrust: 95.1 kN (9,700 kgp / 21,400 lbf)

[edit] Specifications (M53-P2)
General characteristics

* Type: Afterburning single-shaft turbofan
* Length: 5,070 mm (199.60 in)
* Diameter: 796 mm (31.33 in) inlet
* Dry weight: 1,515 kg (3,340 lb)

Components

* Compressor: 8-stage axial compressor
* Bypass ratio: 0.36:1
* Turbine: 2-stage axial turbine

Performance

* Maximum Thrust:
o 64 kN (14,300 lbf) military thrust
o 95 kN (21,384 lbf) with afterburner
* Overall pressure ratio: 9.8:1
* Specific fuel consumption:
o 0.90(kg/daN.h)Dry engine thrust
o 2.10(kg/daN.h) military thrust
* Thrust-to-weight ratio: 6.5
The Snecma M88 is an afterburning turbofan engine developed by Snecma for the Dassault Rafale fighter.

Specifications
General characteristics

* Type: twin-shaft, bypass turbofan engine
* Length: 3531 mm (139 in)
* Diameter: 698.5 mm (27.5 in) inlet
* Dry weight: 897 kg (1,978 lb)

Components

* Compressor: 6-stage
* Bypass ratio: 0.30:1
* Turbine: 2 single-staged turbines

Performance

* Maximum Thrust:
o 11,250 lbf (50.04 kN) military thrust
o 17,000 lbf (75.62 kN) with afterburner
* Overall pressure ratio: 24.5:1
* Turbine inlet temperature: 1,850K (2,871 °F)
* Fuel consumption: dry 0.80 kg/(daN·h)
* Thrust-to-weight ratio: approx. 8.5:1
well be examining these specifications you can see where the current Kaveri and Project goal Kaveri stand. Performance wise.

upon examine the figures you will find the Kaveri to be in fact a Highly capable engine in its own right.
And it has to be given the fact that the there so many uses for it.

Plans are also already under way for derivatives of the Kaveri, including a non-afterburning version for an advanced jet trainer and a high-bypass-ratio turbofan based on the Kaveri core, named as Kabini.

* GTX-35VS Kaveri:
o HAL Tejas (planned for production models)
o HAL Medium Combat Aircraft (conceptual)
o Unmanned Aerial Vehicles

Derivatives:

* The Indian government plans to adapt and further develop the Kaveri engine design and technology to create a gas-turbine powerplant for armoured fighting vehicles such as the Arjun tank.

* Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT), a recently developed derivative of the GTX-35VS Kaveri engine for ships.

The IAF has stated interest in Making the GTX-35VS Kaveri and its variants the standard engines for all its aircraft. Given that it realizes all its project goals.
To that end
Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, which would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF by 2010.

The Kaveri is realy not about just the LCA anymore, All three branches of the Indian Military have a stake in it.

Quite frankly given the Huge support the Engine has garnered, what should have been a failed venture has been brought back from the brink of defeat to well a positive outcome.

The DRDO, however, currently hopes to have the Kaveri engine ready for use on the Tejas by 2010.
This program has survived literally fueled by hope(as well as quarter of a billion dollars), who knows may be, we may still be surprised.

Chapter 4: The Battle royale
 

RPK

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HAL Tejas timeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


HAL Tejas timeline

1983
DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft
1984
Government of India set up Aeronautical Development Agency ADA in 1984 as the nodal agency for managing and developing the LCA.
1985
IAF submits Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for LCA in October 1985. This was initiated by the then Air Chief Marshal Idris Hassan Latif.
1986
Programme to develop an indigenous powerplant (engine) was launched at GTRE.
1987
Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French Dassault Aviation as consultants.
1988
Project definition completed in September 1988.
1989
Government review committee expresses confidence in LCA programme. It was decided that the programme will be carried out in two phases.
1990
Design of LCA was finalised as a small delta winged reverse static stability aircraft.
Phase 1 of the development was commenced to create the proof of concept system. Financial problems within India prevented full scale operations from starting.
1993
Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.
1995
Technical assistance sought with Israel in critical bottle-neck areas.
First technology demonstrator, TD-1, rolled out on 17 November 1995 and was followed by TD-2 in 1998. However, technical problems in flight control systems and structural deficiencies plagued the prototypes and they remained grounded.
1997
Multi-Mode Radar (MMR) for LCA design work started at HAL’s Hyderabad division and the LRDE.
2001
Development assistance sought from Snecma on the Kaveri engine.
4 January - LCA’s maiden flight successfully completed by Technology Demonstrator TD-1 , on , 2001. Prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee renames LCA as Tejas.
2002
MMR system was reported to be not working as per the criteria laid down in requirements.
2006
13 May - The PV-2 went supersonic for the first time
14 May - The PV-2 went supersonic again, but this time in a weaponised state (i.e., carrying weapons such as missiles and an internal gun).
1 December - The PV-3 flew for the first time for 27 minutes at an altitude of 2.5 km and at a speed of Mach 0.8. The PV-3 was equipped with a more advanced pilot interface, refined avionics and higher control law capabilities compared with the previous versions.
2007

Tejas PV-1 firing an R-73 missile during weapons trials in Goa
25 April - The first Limited Series Production LCA (LSP-1) made its first flight and it reached a speed of Mach 1.1.
PV-2 and PV-3 underwent sea-level trails at INS Rajali Naval Air Station, Arakkonam to study the effects of flying at sea-level, as all earlier trials have been conducted at Bangalore which is 3,000 feet above sea-level. The reliability of the LCA systems under the hot and humid conditions, as well as low level flight characteristics was tested.It is due to this intense flight testing schedule that the LCA was not able to fly at the Paris air show-2007, as was originally planned.
7 September - Tejas Prototype Vehicle (PV-1) made a successful maiden flight with two 800 litre drop tanks.
25 October - Tejas PV-1 fired a Vympel R-73 missile for first time. The trials were conducted off the Goa coast at INS Hansa Naval Air Station.
11 December - LITENING Pod was successfully tested on Tejas PV-2.
2008

HAL Tejas high-altitude trials at Leh successfully completed by December 2008.
7 February - Tejas Prototype Vehicle (PV-1) made a successful flight powered by fuel from two 800 litre drop tanks. It made a one hour and 24 minute long sortie. On internal fuel LCA can perform a 40-minute sortie.
April - First Flight with HMDS
LCA Tejas prototypes PV-2 & PV-3 underwent hot weather flight trials at Air Force Station, Nagpur from 28 May 2008 to 04 June 2008. The trials were declared successful.
16 June - Tejas second Limited Series Production LCA (LSP-2) made its first flight and it reached a speed of Mach 1.1.
7 November - LCA Prototype Vehicle-3 made first successful night flight.
13 December - PV-3 and LSP-2 completed the high altitude at the Leh air base.
2009
22 January - Tejas completed 1000 flights.
February - the live bombs test were successfully carried out.
October - PV-3 and LSP-2 completed visual target elimination and air-to-ground weapons delivery trials.
26 November - Two seater (Trainer) version of Tejas(PV-5) made its maiden flight on 26 Nov 09.
 

icecoolben

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Tejas to fly on indigenous Kaveri engine next year: Official

After a lot of suspense, news has emerged that Tejas would be fitted with kaveri for tests by next year,

http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/India/20091127/1393498.html

though this could be only for tests, the integration would definitiely be a feat for the engine development. But the article falls short to describe kaveri's thrust weight etc. The last time I heard from business standard on may 2009, the kaveri engine was 1250 kg overweight by 200 kg and the tejas aircraft was overweight by 1-1.5 tonnes, and reportedly produced only 65 kn max sustained thrust, hope they have made good improvements now.

The gtre-snecma venture hasn't taken off it seems, if the venture not worth'd, we could approach patt & whitney. They were willing to provide consultancy after all, and they produce the most advanced turbo-fan as well f-135 for f-35 lightning2.

the iaf brass seems to have turned around as well, the air chief marshal himself bats for indigenous products

http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/India/20091106/1377817.html

can anyone give concrete news reports that kaveri produces 82 kn max thrust than 64 kn quoted by business standard?
 

icecoolben

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Here's a better presented article by domain-b,

domain-b.com : Tejas LCA to be powered by indigenous Kaveri engine

The article claims that tejas right now is only 500 kgs overweight and the engine performs at 93% efficiency, I rather doubt that efficiency be'cos gas turbines generally aren't that efficient especially low bypass ratio jet engines.
Mr. Rao quotes that the stipulations laid down in 1998 by air force were fulfilled, any of u guys with knowledge what those stipulations were.
 

Rahul Singh

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Enough of the mess already. Focus should be on getting MK2 done first, irrespective of what ever progress KAVERI makes. We will always have the option for putting KAVERI in last batch.
 

icecoolben

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Enough of the mess already. Focus should be on getting MK2 done first, irrespective of what ever progress KAVERI makes. We will always have the option for putting KAVERI in last batch.
Guess Tejas has already achieved its conceived parameters 19 then.only after lsp-3 comes out u would know how el-2032 and after subsequent Lsps how mmr, works on tejas. pv-4 is not out, which was planned to be the naval variant but now just another prototype, the naval prototypes np-1 double seater and np-2 haven't been produced even as prototypes, the mk-1 version has been found gasping for air at high altitudes and we are still figuring out how to get optimum air intake for the engine and thinking of designing auxillary intakes along with main intake. In short, the tejas mk-1 isn't complete at all, only after mk-1 can we build mk-2 upon it.

ok, lets talk of mk-2, which engine would v fit it with? F414 or ej-200. Either of this engines are constant thrust engines and i seriously doubt if either of them can deliver the performance the iaf requires, in Indian tropical conditions where ambient temperatures are comparably higher than in the original equipment manufacturer countries. Constant thust engines give a solid thrust for a constant intake like the case of f414 giving 97 kn in north america. But due to indian conditions, f-18 e/fs twin-enginee with there same engines were found gasping for air, if this engine gets employed the tejas would still be an under-performer, i'm sure the theory holds good for ej-200 too. Then the air-force will ask for another engine with even more thrust, saying that it couldn't perform specified combat manoevers like high angeles of attack etc. Of course they would buy 40 more due to political pressure. But then what the tejas mk-3 with a 120 kn engine.

To avoid such an embarrasing fiasco, the tejas from its inception was build to use a flat-rated engine. Flat-bedding is a technology employed on very few engines like kaveri, f404 to make engines suitable to varying high ambient conditions. The engine employs RPM changes when air availabily decreases to keep the engine thrust steady. This of course produces enormous stress on the turbine blades, this could well be the reason kaveri has been known to have the tendency to throw its blades. But, if recent reports are to be believed Kaveri has solved those problems and that should be great news, even for an under-performing engine. Just developing core components that withstand high temperatures, single crystal blades would be the small steps that v must take to reach the 90 kn from the present 80 kn, this is called performance enhancement.

Kaveri development is as much important as the Tejas programme itself, with recent marine kaveri and armoured vehicle powering version its significance grows even more. The mk-2 would never be complete, without kaveri being employed on the mk-2 production machines that follow the first 100 or 160 initially foreign ones. Only with Kaveri powering tejas, that the programme initiated in 1983 would reach its logical conclusion.
kaveri is real important for our autonomy as well, our tejas mk-2 would not be a hanger queen, v would have to engage in atleast limited conflict with China or Pakistan. Pakistan f-16s patrolled shortly after Indian mig-23,25 violated pakistan airspace. But they couldn't keep them in the air primarily due to lack of engine spares. India should not be left in such a situation and should standardise kaveri across all its fighters whose engines fall into kaveri's category.
 

Quickgun Murugan

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IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but..

Bangalore: The geopolitical factor that determined state-owned Air India's choice of commercial aircraft in the mid-2000 may come into play again in the Indian government's selection of engines for its indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas.

In 2005, when the national carrier's order for 50 aircraft worth $6 billion went to US aerospace company Boeing, its French rival Airbus Industrie had said it was the "geopolitical factor" that had clinched the deal.

DNA Money has learned that Indian Air Force (IAF), which is the user of LCA Tejas, has in its recommendations to the Ministry of Defence favoured the purchase of European aerospace company Eurojet's EJ200 over US aerospace firm General Electric's F-414. These are the only two companies that have bid for the $750 million order for 99 engines.
An IAF official, who did not want to be named, said IAF want the EJ200 to power Tejas so that there is no delay in building the LCA with enhanced power. The government is currently carrying out technical evaluation of the two military aircraft engines.

"The thrust of EJ200 (about 85+ kilonewton) may be slightly lower than F-414 (95+ kilonewton), but it will easily fit into the LCA. And if the weight is reduced, its (EJ200) power will be adequate. Thus, we will not have to change the design of the fuselage," the official said.

The official said since the F-414 was a "fatter" engine with a bigger diameter, it could require redesigning of fuselage. "And if that happens, then all the test flights, many of which have already been carried out, will have to be repeated and the whole programme could get considerably delayed. It will also escalate the cost."

He, however, said the price of the European engine was higher than the American engine. "Generally, aircraft equipments bought from US are cheaper because of their scale of production. European manufacturers do not have the same volumes and so tend to be expensive," he said.

But even though the IAF is pitching for the EJ200, the final decision would be made by the Ministry of Defence with inputs from the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) -- the state-owned company that is manufacturing the aircraft -- and Defence Research and Development Organisation.

A defence analyst, who did not want to be named, said looking at direction of the winds in the Indo-US relationship, which is very positive at the moment, the aircraft engine deal could well fall in the lap of the US aerospace company.

He said the order for F-414 would also work in favour of HAL and ADA. "It (F-414 order) will mean more money and work for both of them (HAL and ADA) as the aircraft require redesigning. This way we will get more business. Everybody is trying to push their own agenda," he said. "My guess is that F-414 will be thrust upon the IAF despite the fact that they want the EJ200 because Americans are pushing hard for it."

The two major aircraft and engine manufacturers are aggressively lobbying for the engine deal because its outcome will have a bearing on India's order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) worth over $10 billion.

"The government is likely to go for aircraft, which is powered by the same engine as Tejas. One argument is that if these fighter jets come in time, then any delay in the Tejas programme will have less significance on the IAF,"
said the analyst.

http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report_iaf-wants-ej200-engines-for-tejas-but_1320196
 

Agantrope

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Go EJ Eo

Indian defence procurement policy often confuses me. :help:

Now to Tejas....

1) Is that the own idea of that official or what ........
2) if the above news is true then i would be happy to go with ET; EJ on Tejas.
3) Will the america be having their lollypops in their mouth when EJ is signed? :twizt:
4) Enhanced EJ will surely more than enough for the Tejas and adding to its stealth features. :)
5) then who will clinch the deal for the acircraft for the IN when F-18 is ruled out?

IMPO india shud have more ties with EU than with US. for 2 reasons

EU trade embargo on China:stinker:
US tech copies on Chinese table :twizt:
 

bhramos

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its really a great news , without changing fuselage fitting engine means reducing time for early induction,
this would be a smart move by HAL.
 

bhramos

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its really a great news , without changing fuselage fitting engine means reducing time for early induction,
this would be a smart move by HAL.
 
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