ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[blade]

Once completed ..even the MK- I will be a serious challenge to western figheters in the same league from business point of view. MK- II certainly do a lot of harm to chinese dream of selling j 10B in the international market but at the end of the day everything depends on how fast india can make LCA commercially available.Now comming to the war part i can only tell you one thing ..if possible try get a real time peek at the fighter you will be surprized to see the stability of the flight path compared to migs.I am sure its going to make a lot of people around the glob unhappy.Whatever is being offered to india currenly is a fall out of MRCA competetion but once the jet is available for commercial purpose( may not be before 2015 atleast) they will feel the pin as it will be the best & cheapest counter to europian and us jets incorporating indo israeli avonics , radar , russian active stealth (plasma coating) may be

 

[Parashuram1]

Once completed ..even the MK- I will be a serious challenge to western figheters in the same league from business point of view. MK- II certainly do a lot of harm to chinese dream of selling j 10B in the international market but at the end of the day everything depends on how fast india can make LCA commercially available.Now comming to the war part i can only tell you one thing ..if possible try get a real time peek at the fighter you will be surprized to see the stability of the flight path compared to migs.I am sure its going to make a lot of people around the glob unhappy.Whatever is being offered to india currenly is a fall out of MRCA competetion but once the jet is available for commercial purpose( may not be before 2015 atleast) they will feel the pin as it will be the best & cheapest counter to europian and us jets incorporating indo israeli avonics , radar , russian active stealth (plasma coating) may be

The Mark-I is often underestimated by Indians. F-16 didn't get its initial hype because it its performance fresh out of factory; but because Americans advertised and believed in it. Only then, did it get a chance to prove itself. This is however not seen in Delhi's case. Many Indians I see still have the wrong idea that its a vintage aircraft now obsolete and not deserving, while conveniently forgetting the constant updating of the aircraft systems from time to time by engineers.

Indians need to learn to appreciate their own work as well at some point rather than constantly doubting their potential. One main component in self-reliance is to believe in one's own abilities. Despite such odds stacked against India, HAL still managed to make a state of the art fighter that has till date not suffered even a single crash despite being in test phase.

I though have to agree that the pace of work at Indian establishments is rather slow and must be looked into. J-10B still has a chance of better exports than HAL Tejas MARK-II. The reason is not superiority but plain geo-strategy and economics.

Considering that Chinese have managed to stumble across an accidental empire by arming Pakistan against Indian forces, it is very likely that China would be able to penetrate into those markets that have been denied fighters by either Russia as well as West. There is no shortage of such countries.

For example, take Pakistan. It was a favorite of Americans until the cold war. However, US was never interested in a very strong Pakistan that could question its authority over in Asia. Hence it started tightening its grip in the F-16 deals and ultimately made it impossible. Pakistan could not choose the Russian option due to India successfully pressurizing Moscow to politically block its weapons sales to Islamabad. Pakistan's mini-conflict in support of NATO, against USSR is another factor that remains fresh in Russia's mind.

Therefore, it was natural for China to capture this market. Libya and Iran also come under this category. Libya suffers from a constant weapons embargo from the West while it is not keen to let Russia boss over its domestic issues by being too dependent on them. Therefore, Libya can be an export potential for the J-10Bs. Iran faces the same situation. Desperate to modernize its fleet of vintage F-14s in an economical fashion, Iran might find the offer of J-10Bs just too tempting to ignore. India for obvious reasons might not supply fighters to Iran as this would harm Israel.

Now moving on to economics. China is able to mass produce goods including armaments at dirt cheap prices simply because it buys foreign currency to deflate its local currency. This has so far worked out wonderfully since China can mass produce fighter jets cheaper and faster than Indians can today. While jets like FC-1 and J-10s are targeted for mass export to such stuck-up countries with no options, India focuses not on the export potential of its products but how it can retain its combat edge in the region by modernizing its air force with its own domestic fighter. This attitude means that they aren't successfully able to reduce the unit costs of the aircraft, not forgetting that LCA is much more advanced than Chinese FC-1 and perhaps even more than J-10 when other components materialize.

While Chinese fighters on their own (without foreign radar and electronic equipment) are average in technology, they are effective and economical alternatives to the more advanced and expensive Western and Russian fighter jets.

Therefore, in the foreseeable future, LCA MARK-II won't find it easy to challenge J-10's export potential.

 

[khatarnak]

The institutes working on LCA from around the country.

http://www.ada.gov.in/Activities/Workcenters/workcenter.htm

 

[Rahul Singh]

LCA-Tejas has completed 1216 Test Flights successfully. (21-Oct-09).


LCA has completed 1216 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-224,PV2-128,PV3-173,LSP1-54,LSP2-99).
123rd & 124th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 20th Oct 09.


-------------------
Two flights of same jet in a day. Someting serious going on, isn't it?

 

[Rahul Singh]

I think it's useful and probably unique.

See attachment.

 

[RAM]

Self-reliance in defence production a must’

Bangalore, November 8


Self-sufficiency in defence production is a must, but at the same time one should not forget the realities of life. This was the message that came from Vice-Chief of the Air Staff P K Barbora on the occasion of the golden jubilee celebrations of the Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), an outfit that works under the aegis of the DRDO.

The GTRE was given the responsibility of developing a jet engine (Kaveri) to power the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA), Tejas. After two decades and an estimated expenditure of Rs 2000 crore, the GTRE is still struggling to complete the project.

GTRE director T M Mohan on Thursday said they would soon be heading for Russia with the engine for altitude tests and flying trials. While the GTRE has been facing a lot of flak over its inability to successfully develop the Kaveri engine, Air Marshal Barbora’s words came as music to the ears of all present at the function. The Vice-Chief, who was the chief guest at the function, said India was caught in a situation wherein it was being forced to jump straight to the space age from a technologically primitive era.

“We have missed out on the mid-level technologies that came about in the fifties,” the Air Marshal said. “Forget about the jet engine, we have not been able to develop a proper automobile engine as yet.” He said rather than being a failure, the Kaveri engine was a success story. “Very soon we shall see IAF pilots flying jets powered by the engine,” the Air Marshal said, attracting a huge applause from the audience.

The Kaveri programme has attracted much criticism due to its ambitious objective, protracted development time, and the DRDO’s lack of clarity and openness in acknowledging problems.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation

 

[SATISH]

Well I am still skeptical about the GTRE Kaveri....it is still underpowered for the Tejas. It can be built upon in the future but IMHO it might end up powering the Trainer of LCA.

 

[icecoolben]

Still the fastest way to bring out kaveri is the snecma-gtre venture. While the french are not funding m-88 3, snecma needs a partner to develop the core, gtre can capitalise on the opportunity to use kaveri techs and tropicalise the engine. Though the tech transfer would be spread over 15 years, it is worth as a good hedge. Reportedly they have set targets of 60 kn of military and 100 kn wet thrust. This could be the tejas mk-2 alternative engine for the third batch order after the first 40 then the next 100 mk-2 are delivered.
Kaveri's own core kabini is being proposed to be developed as a different venture, so in house r&d wont die either. Its requirement must be close to 120 kn reported by the improved performance ge414 engine, to give the proposed medium combat aircraft aircraft super-cruise capability.

The kaveri even in its present form has 52 kn dry thrust, 82 kn with after-burner, which is better than the m-88 2 engine's 50.5 military thrust and 75 kn wet. So reportedly rafale has offered to mount the gtx kaveri engines on the rafales sold to india. This offer should be actively considered and pursued as it would grant a lease of life for our indigenous kabini. In the event dassalt demonstrates successful integration of kaveri integrated with rafale , with extensive field trials certifying the clearance of engine at this point the first phase of mmrca funds should be released. The initial 18 should all be engined with the kaveri, this engine integration technology should be transfered to india and that would signal end start of implementation of contract and initiation of payment. Otherwise the contract would be declared void. Industrial development our own power plant this way would ensure future r&d and program maturity& dependibility .

 

[icecoolben]

Well I am still skeptical about the GTRE Kaveri....it is still underpowered for the Tejas. It can be built upon in the future but IMHO it might end up powering the Trainer of LCA.

had v taken the initiative of south korea and developed tejas like t-50 and turned it to a mk-2 mean fighter, it would have cost less still being effective. A non-after burning version of gtx kaveri engine even in the present configuration and thrust can be used to power a trainer version that would equal/exceed the performance of the present bae hawk
s in air force. While costing much less than imported systems
and providing great infusion of funds to the tejas programme.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I have seen so many pics of HF-XX Tejas, but i have still to pick engine's throttle stick. Help me if you have seen.


Thanks!

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Once completed ..even the MK- I will be a serious challenge to western figheters in the same league from business point of view.

I would not say so, LCA doesn't have an operational radar yet while the western world is moving towards AESA. We don't have a decent power-plant yet. The FLIR is imported and there is no info aviable about EW suite.

MK- II certainly do a lot of harm to chinese dream of selling j 10B in the international market but at the end of the day everything depends on how fast india can make LCA commercially available.

Nations that would buy J-10B would never think about LCA eg Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran and some other countries. J-10B and LCA are fighters in different class. Main foriegn customers for LCA could be some south or central american countries.

Whatever is being offered to india currenly is a fall out of MRCA competetion but once the jet is available for commercial purpose( may not be before 2015 atleast) they will feel the pin as it will be the best & cheapest counter to europian and us jets incorporating indo israeli avonics , radar , russian active stealth (plasma coating) may be

Firstly plasma stealth is yet not a reality once when it becomes reality we may talk about it. LCA is no place near to counter SH or SV. Typhoon and Rafale are also good daam aircraft. As LCA would develop these jets would also upgrade and not remain at same level.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Any Plans for OLS on Lca...?

No, we are not going to have OLS on LCA. We have FLIR pod. I believe we have imported it from France i suppose.

 

[blade]

I would not say so, LCA doesn't have an operational radar yet while the western world is moving towards AESA. We don't have a decent power-plant yet. The FLIR is imported and there is no info aviable about EW suite.
Nations that would buy J-10B would never think about LCA eg Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran and some other countries. J-10B and LCA are fighters in different class. Main foriegn customers for LCA could be some south or central american countries.


Firstly plasma stealth is yet not a reality once when it becomes reality we may talk about it. LCA is no place near to counter SH or SV. Typhoon and Rafale are also good daam aircraft. As LCA would develop these jets would also upgrade and not remain at same level.

1. I dont agree to this. Just bacuase a radar is not yet fit into the frame of Tejas dont mean that the radar is not ready. The hybrid ELTA 2032 is well into trial phase and has performed extreamly well untill now. Its a very fact that AESA being the latest fad in the world.Still there is hardly any AESA available at present which is better than russian PESA.Aprart from APG 77 (used in raptor) all other AESA's have better PESA counter.Both AESA & PESA have their individual field of excellence & advantage over each other. So it will still be too early to make a comparitive verdict. Moreover None of the present day fighters in the world of LCA's dimension is equiped with AESA.About power
plant neither j 10 nor LCA is not likely to fly with indigenous engine for atleast another half a decade. So the worst we can state about LCA engine is the fact that the final
pick has not yet been decided among a. GE 414 b. EJ 200 c. RD 33 ( a better version than what has been offered to china ). Once that is done both will be standing on the same platform. We should also keep in mind that even its very much unlikely that the export versions of j 10's will carry indigineous chinese avionics. So I fail to understand how with foreign engine & hybrid avionics
j 10 will have better business preparedness compared to LCA , especially when the later one will field a comparatively better avionics and engine with foreign help. About export potential its not that the countries like pak, bangladesh will not even think of LCA rather its the other way round. India will not be interested to sell LCA to these nations( especially the most advanced versions). Initial few tejas may have imported FLIR but its very difficult to believe that DRDO will take long time to make one indigenously or by JV (perhaps with israel.) especially when we see their success in other sections of avionics.The topic of EW is one of the most classified sections in defence. So its likely that we will know very little indepth description about the EW suits in Tejas but its known that both AIA & DARE are working together on a project to buld an EW suit for both the countries. Which Israel will use on JSF and DARE on Tejas.When the fact that JSF already have a very very sophisticated EW suit integrated with it in mind the potential and specially customized uniqueness of MAYAVI can be quiet a game changing factor. The EW's in mig 21 fooled F 16C version on regular basis.So it will be very unwise to believe that what we will have for Tejas will be a bad one. Several components of Su 30mki's EW suits are either indian made or obtained from Israel.

2. Yes plasma stealth is not yet a usable tech [ its already been developed though & thats why i used ( may be)]. Even if the plasma stealth is not an option russians have already come up with a stealth coating which is much better than what is available on mig 21.
If we compare the structural dimensions of mig 21 & Lca Tejas we will find that Jejas has slightly bigger geometric size compared to Tejas. Now use of composites, better air frame design , better placement of the engine , far better avionics (including EW ), better stealth coating will give Jetas a much better chance of first detection in BVR combat.Now Tejas is being designed to be an air dominance fighter(point defence) so it is not suppose to match SH in A2G role. As far as A2A engagement is concerned it will be too early to predict anything. SH & SV are the ultimate evolution of H & V whereas the present form of Tejas is only the first step. With an open architecture Lca will see a great deal of upgradation in comming year than we can think right now.
Tejas will be a very potent threat to any fighter of F 16 blk 52 class / mirage 2000-5. Its really very very difficult to believe that after the huge success of mig 21 upgradation India will make a fighter which will be having components worse than mig 21. If a tejas is fitted with a kopyo radar and other updraded equipments of mig 21s it will be more than a match for any f 16 A/B. Now rest is anyones guess. Typhoon & rafeal dosnt belong to the same class so lets not compare them. Its very likely that even LCA TEJAS mk I will give a nightmare to f 16 blk 52, jf 16, j 10 , mirage 2000-5. MK II version will bring some real
head ache for big boys too. So lets hold our nerve and wait for another 5 years.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Excellent post BLADE. Keep it up.

 

[Daredevil]

Can someone who has been keenly following LCA summarize the progress so far. It is good to take a look at the progress in the form of a small summary to avoid redundant questions again and again.

Thanks

 

[venkat]

DD! the plus and minus have been interchanged..so some smoke and fire!

 

[icecoolben]

Until v find countries like thailand, south africa which ordered low numbers of gripen. The tejas would serve only with our air-force. The tejas platform has tremendous other spin-offs like the advanced trianer that matches t-50 golden eagle and planned eads advanced trainer. Further, countries like indonesia ordered the t-50 and converted it to light fighter, this should be our way of marketing.
Still tejas export is 5-6 years in the making and no country has so far shown interest in the aircraft. Rarely hal products had envinced such enthusiasism among international customers except dhuruv. So it would really be a hard market to crack.

 

[mattster]

Sometimes I think that some people on this forum are getting too carried away with useless posts like exporting the LCA.

Lets look at the LCA saga. This is the first "start from scratch" fighter that India has produced in the last what 30 - 40 - 50 years.....I am not sure what the number is, but I know its been very long.

The indigenous Indian Aircraft industry is just starting out with its first baby step. The fact that HAL has been assembling foreign fighters under TOT is not such a huge advantage when it comes to building your own fighter from scratch. If it were, it would not have taken 20+ years to get the LCA ready.

Now having said all that, the last thing you want to do is export your very first fighter aircraft that you have operationalized in ages.

The reasons for this are simple:

1) You need your own air-force to validate the platform and gain full confidence in the performance of the aircraft. This will take a few years before you can be sure.

2) If there are any crashes, etc, its always easier to handle the investigation, PR, media, etc if it occurs in your own country. Example - the HAL Dhruv fiasco in Ecuador.

3) Finally...Aircraft manufacturing industry takes time to mature, and develop its capability. Hence its always smart to wait until your industry is really mature before export your 2nd generation products rather than rushing to export your 1st generation product.

Now, comparing China to India does not work in this regard. Chinese companies like Xian and Shenyang has been at this game a lot longer than HAL and ADA. The J10 is their 2rd or 3th indigenous attempt.
Their whole aircraft industry chain is a lot more mature than India's.

India should just focus on getting the LCA ready for the IAF. When the IAF has flown the LCA for a couple of years without any issues, then you can think of exporting it, but it may be an outdated product which will only be bought by 3rd world countries.

There are no shortcuts in this story.

 

[blade]

Can someone who has been keenly following LCA summarize the progress so far. It is good to take a look at the progress in the form of a small summary to avoid redundant questions again and again.

Thanks

1. Indo israeli hybrid ELTA 2032 has successfully completed most of its A2A operational displays. Currently A2G mode is being thoroughly tested in Israel.
2. Most likely Tejas engine choise has been diconnected from MRCA deal. GE 414 might not be an obvious choice anymore. Both EJ 200 & RD 33 are being seriously considered. RD 33 might have the final success but this RD 33 will be a significantly upgraded version
3. Some changes are being brought into airframe to improve air intake.
4. Most of the avionics have been either developed or being developed and the rest is nearing the final sepection ( such as FLINT)
5. The present challanges faces by Tejas developement team could be given as follows
A. Coordinating the avionics obtained from different sources.
B. Effectively modifying the airframe.
C. Handling over weight. ( some measures have been taken by geting rid of the telemetric equipments but that dosnt seem to be enough at present.)
D. Validation of the algorithms. Its a very very time consuming and tressful exercise.
E. Validation of highly complex flight control systems.

 

[icecoolben]

U can't blame us for trying to crack the market, of course v are well aware of the responsibilities and are prepared to accept them. V have to arm our littorals and countries that lie in our own exclusive zone of influence and zone of interest to a decent level, to tackle militancy or atleast for point defence against other aircraft straying into their air space. For example even the Us has lesser chance than india to arm bhutan's defence forces, given these obligations our own independent strategic hardware that are not prone to Us sanctions or dependent on other countries for their operational readiness is most essential.

[mod]Avoid using SMS lingo[/mod]