ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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ersakthivel

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@ Ersakhtivel

LCA mk1 also costs 40 million dollars And if it is less than useful for IAF then why to make it at all

And LCA mk 1 has already been badly delayed With FOC for LCA mk1 coming in 2015

By 2015 LCA mk 2 will be ready even if it is WITHOUT AESA but GE 414 will give it the much needed TWR
and speed

AESA can come later in LCA mk2

The Most important thing is the GE 414
Orders are already placed for 40 MK-Is. They are much more effective than migs and jags. They can be upgraded close to mk-II level with nose cone extensions ,fuselage extension and asea radar.
If you see any fighter program this is the norm.
We inducted sukhois 10 years before it's actual weaponisation. Pilots train and develop tactics on it. Then they were sent back to Russia for weaponisation later. Also in tranche 3 version all TYPHOONS will have ground bombing capability not now.

The first rafale with asea radar is just about to be tested.
The grippen NG that participated in MMRCA is just a single prototype(with far more extensive changes needed than MK-I) , it's first developmental flight sheduled for 2013!!!!!!!!!!!
People look at the future when inducting the fighter not it's IOC, FOC specs..
Mk-1 is the tested plat form ,that's all we can upgrade it on the go with mk-II.
K firs and mirages in the past were upgraded with longer nosecone housing bigger radars and longer fuselage extensions in their MLU.
That is the practice world over,Mate.

It is useful for IAF.That's why the initial order for 20 was extended by IAF to 40. Do you think they will extend the numbers if] it is not useful to them?
 
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ersakthivel

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@ Ersakhtivel

Mate I believe that We will NOT see FORTY LCA mk1 in IAF

LCA MK1 is just a completely necessary learning experience for making a better LCA mk2

All the problems that ADA has faced in LCA mk 1 will help them in making a much better LCA mk2
I have already posted whatever that was relevant.It is better to induct 40 brand new LCAs than maintaining 40 older migs and jAGS . The pilots too can develop tactics with LCA, like they did on SUKHOI 10 years before weaponisation.. And these LCA mk--Is can be updated later with AMCA engines and aseas.
 

ersakthivel

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AWACSs today like E-2C Hawkeye 2000 and E-3C are capable to the detect the target of RCS = 1m2 class 250~300 km away.

And their maximal effective detection range to the fighters in the world should be:

* F-15C & Su-27 (RCS = 10~15m2): 450 ~ 600 km
* Tornado (RCS = 8 m2): 420 ~ 500 km
* MIG-29 (RCS = 5 m2): 370 ~ 450 km
* F/A-18C (RCS = 3 m2): 330 ~ 395 km
* F-16C (RCS = 1.2 m2): 260 ~ 310 km
* JAS39 (RCS = 0.5 m2): 210 ~ 250 km
* Su-47 (RCS = 0.3 m2): 185 ~ 220 km
* Rafale (RCS = 0.1~0.2 m2): 140 ~ 200 km
* F-18E (RCS = 0.1 m2): 140 ~ 170 km
* MIG-42 (RCS = 0.1 m2): 140 ~ 170 km
* EF2K (RCS = 0.05~0.1 m2): 120 ~ 170 km
* F-35A (RCS = 0.0015 m2): 50 ~ 60 km
* F/A-22 (RCS < or = 0.0002~0.0005 m2): < or = 30 ~ 45 km
 

ersakthivel

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AWACSs today like E-2C Hawkeye 2000 and E-3C are capable to the detect the target of RCS = 1m2 class 250~300 km away.

And their maximal effective detection range to the fighters in the world should be:

These are estimated values.

* F-15C & Su-27 (RCS = 10~15m2): 450 ~ 600 km
* Tornado (RCS = 8 m2): 420 ~ 500 km
* MIG-29 (RCS = 5 m2): 370 ~ 450 km
* F/A-18C (RCS = 3 m2): 330 ~ 395 km
* F-16C (RCS = 1.2 m2): 260 ~ 310 km
* JAS39 (RCS = 0.5 m2): 210 ~ 250 km
* Su-47 (RCS = 0.3 m2): 185 ~ 220 km
* Rafale (RCS = 0.1~0.2 m2): 140 ~ 200 km
* F-18E (RCS = 0.1 m2): 140 ~ 170 km
* MIG-42 (RCS = 0.1 m2): 140 ~ 170 km
* EF2K (RCS = 0.05~0.1 m2): 120 ~ 170 km
* F-35A (RCS = 0.0015 m2): 50 ~ 60 km
* F/A-22 (RCS < or = 0.0002~0.0005 m2): < or = 30 ~ 45 km

There is no air bourne radar in the world that can detect a o.1 sq meter target beyond 100 kilometers. SO LCA with a RCS range closer to 0.1 sq meter(exact figures are not known, since it is smaller than rafale and with no canards and designed with RCS reduction aim from the inception using all the RAM techniques employed in all modern 4.5 gen fighters) with a bvr ranges above 120 km will be a very useful weapon for a long time to come

. It can hold it's own against J-10, F-16 and all other chinese sukhoi versions in the sphere of RCS values.

comparing it with mig-21s and jaguars is plain silly thing to do.
 
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EzioAltaïr

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AWACSs today like E-2C Hawkeye 2000 and E-3C are capable to the detect the target of RCS = 1m2 class 250~300 km away.

And their maximal effective detection range to the fighters in the world should be:

These are estimated values.

* F-15C & Su-27 (RCS = 10~15m2): 450 ~ 600 km
* Tornado (RCS = 8 m2): 420 ~ 500 km
* MIG-29 (RCS = 5 m2): 370 ~ 450 km
* F/A-18C (RCS = 3 m2): 330 ~ 395 km
* F-16C (RCS = 1.2 m2): 260 ~ 310 km
* JAS39 (RCS = 0.5 m2): 210 ~ 250 km
* Su-47 (RCS = 0.3 m2): 185 ~ 220 km
* Rafale (RCS = 0.1~0.2 m2): 140 ~ 200 km
* F-18E (RCS = 0.1 m2): 140 ~ 170 km
* MIG-42 (RCS = 0.1 m2): 140 ~ 170 km
* EF2K (RCS = 0.05~0.1 m2): 120 ~ 170 km
* F-35A (RCS = 0.0015 m2): 50 ~ 60 km
* F/A-22 (RCS < or = 0.0002~0.0005 m2): < or = 30 ~ 45 km

There is no air bourne radar in the world that can detect a o.1 sq meter target beyond 100 kilometers. SO LCA with a RCS range closer to 0.1 sq meter(exact figures are not known, since it is smaller than rafale and with no canards and designed with RCS reduction aim from the inception using all the RAM techniques employed in all modern 4.5 gen fighters) with a bvr ranges above 120 km will be a very useful weapon for a long time to come

. It can hold it's own against J-10, F-16 and all other chinese sukhoi versions in the sphere of RCS values.

comparing it with mig-21s and jaguars is plain silly thing to do.
Doesn't the presence of missiles and bombs on pylons increase the RCS?
 

p2prada

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Doesn't the presence of missiles and bombs on pylons increase the RCS?
Yeah. Any aircraft will see an increase in RCS by many times.

It's like you can put any number next to clean RCS. Rafale claims something like 0.1m[SUP]2[/SUP], add a missile and the ejector racks and we will see an increase by a massive number. Multiply by 5, 10, 20, 30 etc and you get the picture.



Look at the number of corner reflectors formed. What a mess. Compare that rack to the F-22s stealth optimised airframe and you get the idea.

Radar sees everything.
 

A chauhan

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Seeing the size of the LCA I don't think that there can be an accommodating internal weapons bays for stealth purposes, the whole design will have to be changed for that IMO, which will take another 5 years. Rather AMCA should be taken as twin engined LCA mk-III :rolleyes:
 

p2prada

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Seeing the size of the LCA I don't think that there can be an accommodating internal weapons bays for stealth purposes, the whole design will have to be changed for that IMO, which will take another 5 years. Rather AMCA should be taken as twin engined LCA mk-III :rolleyes:
A LCA type aircraft is a requirement for "poor" air forces.

The capability boost medium and heavier aircraft bring is simply far too different.

When the F-16 and Mirage-2000 were thought of, and LCA, the idea was that a small and light fighter had a major advantage in dog fights. This is because of the technology of the time and engine technology limitations. Now that is no longer the case. A F-35 which is twice as heavy as a F-16 can out maneuver it while a F-22 while being 3 times heavier can out maneuver the same. This killed all the chances of light fighters because their only advantage to heavier fighters was lost due to superior airframe and engine designs.

Now a 19 ton Su-35 will outfly anything in the sky, most probably even the F-22 which is probably the next best flyer out there.

If I provide figures and compare to that of LCA which is merely a Mirage-2000,
Rafale's Instantaneous Turn Rate is over 30deg/s at 1G and at Mach 0.5. Sustained Turn Rate is over 23deg/s at same speed and 50% fuel. Higher Gs reduces turn rates, but modern FCs and airframe does not limit it.
Comparatively Mirage-2000 is at 29 deg/s instantaneous and 19 deg/s sustained. So, while the ITR is similar, the STR is simply too wide a gap to bridge. Bring in T/W and the advantage significantly improves.

Looking at LCA's IOC spec of 17deg/s STR, it should be at the same level as the Mirage-2000 at FOC.

Su-30MKI was reported to manage a 35deg/s instantaneous turn rate at similar specs. For the F-22 we are talking about STRs of 28deg/s at lower speeds if the youtube karnal is to be believed.

You see all of this depends on the amount of lifting surfaces present on aircraft. Rafale, MKI etc have more moving surfaces which provide lift compared to smaller aircraft like Mirage-2000 and LCA.

Therefore why aircraft like LCA are hopelessly outclassed in every way possible by heavier aircraft even when it comes to aspects like dog fights let alone the massive sensor, avionics and capability disadvantages.

As it stands LCA class aircraft are very cheap. Affordable to air forces which want larger numbers at small budgets, like PAF and the JF-17 or Sweden and Gripen. Both examples show the stark realities of how budgets are managed along with aircraft numbers meant for fighting superior forces. Countries like US, India, Russia and China have none of these limitations and can justify massive procurement budgets with little problems.

AMCA is the next logical step after PAKFA.
 

ersakthivel

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Yeah. Any aircraft will see an increase in RCS by many times.

It's like you can put any number next to clean RCS. Rafale claims something like 0.1m[SUP]2[/SUP], add a missile and the ejector racks and we will see an increase by a massive number. Multiply by 5, 10, 20, 30 etc and you get the picture.



Look at the number of corner reflectors formed. What a mess. Compare that rack to the F-22s stealth optimised airframe and you get the idea.

Radar sees everything.
In point defense roles,which is the primary function of LCA.

Only if the LCA exposes those weapons to AWACS by flying higher tham AWACS .It wont happen because RWR of LCA will indicate fairly the altitude of radar emissions from awacs.If LCA flies low all those weapons will be covered under the wings of LCA and therewill be no excessive radar reflections. Even if longer missiles protrude in front of it's wing leading edges ,most of the missile fins will be under it's wings ,so there will be no radar reflections.

Once BVR launch moment comes they can climb high and from those heights it can fire those long range BVRs with supersonic speeds giving maximum range and dive low still guiding those BVRs on target.because radar range doesn't get affected by altitude.All of this can be done within a matter of a minute since it has the lowest wing loading and much better lift.

since lca can cross 20 kms in a minute it is a routine maneuver ,nothing out of the ordinary.

Btw the bombs shown in the picture are not air to air missiles. So it has no relevance to the primary point defence air to air mission of LCA.Missiles have much sleeker heads and fins generally go under the wings.And nowadays even the pylons are stealth optimized. So there need not be any excessive radar reflections.

It is not for nothing that makers of planes like TYPHOON,RAFALE,GRIPPEN AND LCA STRIVE TO DECREASE RCS emissions.
 
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ersakthivel

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A LCA type aircraft is a requirement for "poor" air forces.

The capability boost medium and heavier aircraft bring is simply far too different.

When the F-16 and Mirage-2000 were thought of, and LCA, the idea was that a small and light fighter had a major advantage in dog fights. This is because of the technology of the time and engine technology limitations. Now that is no longer the case. A F-35 which is twice as heavy as a F-16 can out maneuver it while a F-22 while being 3 times heavier can out maneuver the same. This killed all the chances of light fighters because their only advantage to heavier fighters was lost due to superior airframe and engine designs.

Please quote the specs of F-35.This is what I quote.

General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 51.4 ft (15.67 m)
Wingspan: 35 ft[N 5] (10.7 m)
Height: 14.2 ft[N 6] (4.33 m)
Wing area: 460 ft²[197] (42.7 m²)
Empty weight: 29,300 lb (13,300 kg)
Loaded weight: 49,540 lb[157][N 7][394] (22,470 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 70,000 lb[N 8] (31,800 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan
Dry thrust: 28,000 lbf[395][N 9] (125 kN)
Thrust with afterburner: 43,000 lbf[395][396] (191 kN)
Internal fuel capacity: 18,480 lb (8,382 kg)[N 10]

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.6+[191] (1,200 mph, 1,930 km/h) (Tested to Mach 1.61)[301]
Range: 1,200 nmi (2,220 km) on internal fuel
Combat radius: 584 nmi[397] (1,080 km) on internal fuel[398]
Service ceiling: 60,000 ft[399] (18,288 m) (Tested to 43,000 ft)[400]
Rate of climb: classified (not publicly available)
Wing loading: 91.4 lb/ft² (446 kg/m²; 526 kg/m2 loaded)
Thrust/weight:
With full fuel: 0.87
With 50% fuel: 1.07
g-Limits: 9 g[N 11]

THE F-35 RELIES ON IT'S STEALTH TO X-BAND RADAR ALONE IN COMBAT.IT'S ALL CRITICAL SPECS ARE NOT WORLD BEATING
,
twr-1.07,-SAME AS MK-1 MUCH INFERIOR TO LCA MK-II

WING LOADING -446(KG/SQ MET) COMPARED TO LCA's 247 (KG/SQ METER).SO HALF THE LIFT OF LCA TEJAS.

OTHER THAN STEALTH IT IS INFERIOR TO LCA NK-I IN ALL PARAMETERS.

Thats why it is being offered to india while F-22 won't be.That's why people call it a flying turkey once it's stealth cover is blown by tomorrow's EW tech.That's why there is so much criticism of it all over the net.

I don't know how F-35 will outmaneuver F-16 with those specs.
Now a 19 ton Su-35 will outfly anything in the sky, most probably even the F-22 which is probably the next best flyer out there.

If I provide figures and compare to that of LCA which is merely a Mirage-2000,
Rafale's Instantaneous Turn Rate is over 30deg/s at 1G and at Mach 0.5. Sustained Turn Rate is over 23deg/s at same speed and 50% fuel. Higher Gs reduces turn rates, but modern FCs and airframe does not limit it.
Comparatively Mirage-2000 is at 29 deg/s instantaneous and 19 deg/s sustained. So, while the ITR is similar, the STR is simply too wide a gap to bridge. Bring in T/W and the advantage significantly improves.
You are once
Looking at LCA's IOC spec of 17deg/s STR, it should be at the same level as the Mirage-2000 at FOC.
Another wrong assumption. STR of a LCA cannot be calculated from it's 2011 aershow clip because TEJAS flies at partial capability due to partially opened flight envelope limitations
STR of a fighter is arrived by the combinatio of thre factors,
1.AOA,
2.TWR,
3.WING LOADING.

1.The design AOA of LCA is around 26 degree for it's 80 kn engine design specs.It has achieved 22 degree upto now with it's partially opened Flight envelope limitations. not very far from mirages, For MK_II with more powerful engines it can go around 28 degree.

2.TEJAS has much higher TWR than MIRAGE.

3.TEJAS has far lower wingloading than mirage and F-16s

So the final STR of LCA mk-II will compare well with F-16,since F-16 has much worser wing loading than LCA.Even MK-Is with upgraded engine will come close to them.

ANOTHER IMPORTANT THING GLOSSED OVER HERE IS F-16 WILL FARE POORER THAN LCA IN VERTICAL AGILITY.IT MAY HAVE A HIGH VERTICAL CLIMB RATE IN A PERPENDICULAR STRAIGHT LINE.BUT WHEN IT COMES TO MANEUVERING IN VERTICAL PLANE THE HIGH WING LOADING OF FIGHTERS LIKE F-35,F-16,MIRAGES WILL MAKE ALL OF THEM INFERIOR TO LCA.

THAT'S WHY ALL LCA TEST PILOTS SAY THAT TAKE OFF IS BETTER IN LCA THAN MIRAGES AND LCA HANDLES SHARPER THAN MIRAGES EVEN WITHIN PARTIAL OPENED FLIGHT ENVELOPE.

And it will have much better ITR than any of the above fighters which is so important to evade missiles.

It is a fighter built with these objectives in mind from design itself. That's why they have full digital fCS ,cranked delta like F-16 XL,and massive elevons. Not some lowly MIG replacement.
Su-30MKI was reported to manage a 35deg/s instantaneous turn rate at similar specs. For the F-22 we are talking about STRs of 28deg/s at lower speeds if the youtube karnal is to be believed.

You see all of this depends on the amount of lifting surfaces present on aircraft. Rafale, MKI etc have more moving surfaces which provide lift compared to smaller aircraft like Mirage-2000 and LCA.

Another factually incorrect statement.Moving surfaces are there for controlling the aircraft.NOT FOR LIFT.LIFT comes from the wing area.TEJAS's lowest wing loading/weight betters all other fighters including F-22 in this regard.It is lighter ,it has the least wing loading(Means more lift for each KG load) Even sukhoi has higher wing loading.It managed those cobras at low speeds with the help of THRUST VECTORING only.While it nay help in low speeds it may not make much difference in high speed high altitude dogfights.

Another thing glossed over is these high number of all moving surfaces all add drag and weight penalties. That's why SU-35 dropped the canards and still has more agility than the euro canards.So the high number of all moving surfaces alone wont make the fighter agile,they also add substantial weight penalties ,drag penalties, and some (like canards before the wing subject the wing to canard wash and throws up issue like force coupling,decreased efficiency of the wing at some angles and FCs linitations

Therefore why aircraft like LCA are hopelessly outclassed in every way possible by heavier aircraft even when it comes to aspects like dog fights let alone the massive sensor, avionics and capability disadvantages.
Thats why a well engineered LCA can hold it's own against any other crafts mentioned here.
As it stands LCA class aircraft are very cheap. Affordable to air forces which want larger numbers at small budgets, like PAF and the JF-17 or Sweden and Gripen. Both examples show the stark realities of how budgets are managed along with aircraft numbers meant for fighting superior forces. Countries like US, India, Russia and China have none of these limitations and can justify massive procurement budgets with little problems.
It is neither cheap, nor low tech.once anti stealth ew support matures in 2020 it cam take on any fighter in the world in point defence duties. Ofcourse it wont be effective in crossing 1000s of kms without refuelling support.But in point defence roles where enemy enters INDIA's own airspace it can take on anything with ew support as all invading fighters too will have to rely on their ew support it wont make much of a difference.

AMCA is the next logical step after PAKFA.
SO
1. with the combination of

1.AOA,
2.TWR,
3.WING LOADING.

The final STR of LCA mk-II will compare well with F-16,since F-16 has much worser wing loading than LCA.Even MK-Is with upgraded engine will come close to them.

2.THE LOW WING LOADING OF LCA. WILL MAKE FIGHTERS LIKE F-35,F-16,MIRAGES INFERIOR in vertical agility.

3.And it will have much better ITR than any of the above fighters which is so important to evade missiles

4.SO LCA won't suffer in agility simply because of lower number all moving surfaces compare to fighters with highe number of all moving surfaces as they all add drag and weight penalties.

5. All moving surfaces of other planes wont add to more lift than the lift provided by a larger wing of LCA.
 
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ersakthivel

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Indian Air Force- News & D iscussion #15 - Page 19 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

Same arguments made by p2prada against LCA are made and countered repeatedly in the above thread. So if members have any doubts regarding the veracity of arguments they can go there and clarify. It is not that the above statements in post 3312 are all just my imagination.They are all related to basic aeronautical design concepts.

I don't want to copy paste statements from that thread as I don't want to pass then off as my arguments. It is upto members to come to conclusion.

Most of the criticism thrown on LCA in that thread comes form our INSPIRED (No prize for guessing the motive behind it)media's factually wrong criticism of the 300 % over budget ,design failures ,poor specs etc, without even having an iota of truth in them.

Actually the LCA is tested to 13 Gs (~1.5 times of 9Gs dynamic load factor) on ground structural rigs and the structure has passed.So all figures of 6Gs are fvking nonsense without even knowing basic facts in engineering that any structure must be 1.5 times stronger than the load it supposed to bear including the concrete roof you are sitting under.

The 1.5 times of limit load (9Gs) to which the airframe is designed to is called the Ultimate load. The wing structure has to sustain 1.5 times of that 9G load for something like 3 seconds to be certified. It won't ever see 13.5G loads in service, but without that test, there will be no certification.

ANd as things stand, the LCA's Ground structural test with a dedicated static test specimen was successful at 13 Gs

This is from AI-11 seminar.

Coming to youtube (courtesy cybersurg), see this one (link below) that lists the technologies... Between 0.30 to 0.37 you'll find the intakes and its Y-Duct design which is what is referred to by Boom and Ray and others.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2011/feb 2011 .pdf---tHIS IS THE SAME LINK KUNAL BISWAS HAS GIVEN.

cybersurg's channel - YouTube

The above two sites will give you exhaustive information regarding this.

SO PLEASE DON'T POST RUBBISH ON LCA TEJAS WITHOUT ANY SOURCE.
 
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ersakthivel

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LCA Tejas technology developemt - 1/2 - YouTube

THIS IS A MUST SEE FILM WHICH EXPLAINS HOW lca WAS DESIGNED AND HOW "Y" DUCT INTAKE HIDES THE COMPRESSORS AND CONTRIBUTES TO STEALTH

hOW IT WAS DESIGNED RIGHT FROM THE WORD GO WITH MOST MODERN DESIGN SOFTWARES.tHE NOSE CONE EXTENSION DOES NOT COMES FROM THE NON COMPLIANCE OF WHITCONB RULE,BECAUSE THE "CEILMAC"report mentions the sudden increase in cross section from x=5000 mm to x=6000 mm. It comes near the mid fuselage.It may have arised from the increased load specs LCA was asked to improve not because of design inadequacies.
The nose plug extension is related to another ratio dealing with finess of nose.
.
 
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ersakthivel

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http://www.airfleet.ru/files/airfleet/Airfleet-2009-1.pdf

The above article is a classic example of how facts about LCA is twisted and how LCA is shown persistently in bad light in foreign press.

It says the aircraft wieghs 7 tons.
But ADA says LCA mk-I weighs 6.5 tons now

Further removal of telemetry equipment will remove 400 kg and some re engineering of display console will reduce another 300 kg and the empty weight will come close to 5.8 tons as close to it's design specs. And this point is used again and again to drive it's specs down.

TO REDUCE THIS WEIGHT ada HAS SIGNED A CONSULTANCY WITH eads TO REDUCE 1.5 WEIGHT TON AS IT GRAPPLES WITH THIS EXPONENTIAL WEIGHT INCREASE.
This is the most ridiculous and dumbest part of all. ADA has signed a consultancy to reduce the WEIGHT OF EXCESSIVE LANDING GEAR OF NAVAL TEJAS which resulted from strengthening it for carrier landing,NOT IAF TEJAS.Author misrepresents it as it is being done for IAF tejas.And the other derisively refers composites as coal plastics through out the article. But when in comparision to F-22 he uses the proper word composites!!!!!


Thus the serial production weight of tejas is more than the weight of it's analoguous grippen.So it is worse than grippen and MIG-21 with a twr of 0.78 .mANUEVERABILITY ,ACCELERATION ,RATE OF CLIMB AND ALL DECREASED AND THE GOAL OF 4000 KG WEAPON LOAD UNATTAINALE EFFECTIVELY REDUCING IT'S LOAD TO 1500 KG.
As usual the repeated bluff of western sources about the mythical overweight issue of tejas and superiority of grippen C/D and mig-21 ovet tejas cleverly hiding the fact that all the SUPPOSEDLY INFERIOR SPECS OF TEJAS IS DUE TO ITS LESSER THAN ORIGINAL DESIGN CAPABILITY PARTIAL ENVELOPE OPENING FLIGHT ENVELOPE.



combat load is 1500 to 2000 kg.Actually less than MIG-21
But it is now confirmed by ADA that combat load is 3.5 tons for mk-1

TWR 0.75 to 0.78with normal take off weight.
But according to ADA figures it is 1.07 as per global calculating norms.

Maximum speed does not exceed 1.4 mach..
But it is now mach 1.6 according to ADA website even with partially opened flight envelope.

As a result of these disappointments IAF restricted it's orders to 20 and refused further orders
IAF placed an additional order of 20 more air crafts besides the original 20 air crafts in mk-I configuration.It actually means production line continues until the MK-II arrives.If mk-I is so inferior why should IAF place 20 more orders?

Though it was decided to abstain from further serial production orders of of LCA MK-I the IAF and HAL would work on the shopisticated version MK-II
It was ADA that does MK-II not HAl.Even this elementary fact escapes the attention of author!!!!!!!!

It is supposed in tejas mk-II design number of improvements directed on optimization of aerodynamic charecteristics and weight of the GLIDER!!!!!!! will be implemented.Replacement of some elements of design ,particular the cahsis will reduce weight
Only the author can explain how they replace the chasis of the aircraft and reduce it's weight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!AND WEIGHT OF A GLIDER!!!!!! ONLY THE DIGNIFIED AUTHORS CAN EXPLAIN.

ATER mig-21upg PRACTICALLY CORRESPONDING TO THE LEVEL OF 4++ GENERATION EQUALS
This is the same rant repeated in this forum again and again,blithely ignoring it's poorest TWr ,inferior combat load,faulty design reducing time on station.piss poor wing loading,the most unreliable engine ever.

THAT IS WHY WHEN ada ANNOUNCED THE DESIGN EMPTY WEIGHT AS 6.5 TONS SOME PEOPLE IN THE FORUM WERE SURPRISED.

AND WHEN I POLITELY POINT OUT THAT LCA HAS CROSSED MACH 1.6 THEY WILL MADLY CLAIM IT IS STRUCK AT 1.4.

When the airframe is good enough for caliberated airspeed of mach 1.2 with in the partially opened envelope,they will dig their heels and say it is subsonic in sea level and never achieve 1.2 mach and after I point out the source they will grudgingly accept that it is done only in a dive.
If flight envelope is fully opened it will attain this speed in level flight also.It can go supersonic in sea level. If it can clear high altitude trials in leh with ease where 4 out of the 5 MMRCA contenders failed to clear IAF specs, why can't it obtain 1.2 mach in sea level.


Also TEJAS completed a full 360 degree turn at a 6 g restricted FCS in a partially opened flight envelope in 22 or so seconds. Then dividing this 360 degree by 22 they immediately concluded that it's STR is 17 degree only and worse than JF-17.

In reality STR is a function of AOA and TWR and wing loading. Tejas is capable of achieving the standard 4th gen specs in all the parametres even in mk-I exceedin other fighters in wing loading ,when FCS restrictions are relaxed after the all important spin recovery tests. Without completing this test and validating parameters no aircraft is allowed to open it's full flight envelope.


This is how the dogfight against tejas is carried on in international forums.And all the posts demeaning tejas in this thread has all the figures from this same 2009 article detatched from today's reality. This is what international media for you..
 
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ersakthivel

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also the whitcomb rule says the shape of the cross section chart of a delta wing fighter should ressemble a coke bottle.

That is it's cross section should increase from nose cone until the wing roots and then gradually decrease from wing roots to the tail tip.

If we see the chart for area cross section in the link ----http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/dss/2009/main/2-CEMILAC.pdf

it is apparent that this rule is observed and not violated as alleged repeatedly in this forum, in the design of LCA as it is designed with modern designing softwares.

The curve ditinctly shows that the cross sectional area is increasing gradually from nose till wing root and then decreasing from it's wingroot point.

Because no design group is stupid enough not to follow this simple rule and proceed to build a full digital FCS, tail less fighter as it is made out in this forum.

But what the CEMILAC paper by S.K.JEBAKUMAR states is that there is an apparent SUDDEN INCREASE IN CROSS SECTION FROM X=5000 MM TO X=6000 MM. bUT THIS CROSS SECTION IS NOT A VIOLATION OF THE RULE. Because whitcomb rule postulates that untill the wing root point cross sectional area can increase gradually.what the report points out is it should have been gradual not sudden t as it is in LCA.

Further the report suggests that by implementing nose cone plug and smoothening this sudden rise ,(not eliminating the sudden rise as it would have been an indictment of poor design on the part of ADA)

The analysis shows that a drag reduction of 3.7 dm2 at M=1.2 is possible with this modification of smoothening the sudden rise.

And it goes on to suggest some smoothening in tail section too.

My inference is this sudden rise may be due to the fact that as the LCA was designed originally as 2 ton load carrying replacement for MIG-21 and then latter (due to the ASR change ) modified to carry more longer range BVRs (with higher weight ),it would have led to strengthening of the wing root resulting in the sudden rise in place of original smoother rise.

It is only my inference as with latest software designed fighter like LCA these sudden changes would have been taken care of in design stage itself.

I would like an informed debate on this topic.
 

A chauhan

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^^ I appreciate your efforts mate in bringing that much about LCA. :thumb: I also appreciate p2p's criticism as critical analysis is as important as appreciative analysis.

If we talk about LCA mk-III as a stealth platform, then I think LCA's too small size makes it unfit for having big internal weapons bay, if we miniaturise missiles and bombs then it will be possible, but that is unlikely to happen. LCA's complete wing design will have to be changed for stealth purpose, but as the DRDO engineers have expressed the possibility of stealth LCA, it would be interesting to see if they can do it ! but if they do it then it can become a damn stealthy jet. I was just looking at the picture of LCA's belly and thinking that how can an internal weapons bay will be adjusted in that very small place, rather it will start looking something like AURA if turned into stealth. What do you guys think about it ?
 

ersakthivel

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^^ I appreciate your efforts mate in bringing that much about LCA. :thumb: I also appreciate p2p's criticism as critical analysis is as important as appreciative analysis.

If we talk about LCA mk-III as a stealth platform, then I think LCA's too small size makes it unfit for having big internal weapons bay, if we miniaturise missiles and bombs then it will be possible, but that is unlikely to happen. LCA's complete wing design will have to be changed for stealth purpose, but as the DRDO engineers have expressed the possibility of stealth LCA, it would be interesting to see if they can do it ! but if they do it then it can become a damn stealthy jet. I was just looking at the picture of LCA's belly and thinking that how can an internal weapons bay will be adjusted in that very small place, rather it will start looking something like AURA if turned into stealth. What do you guys think about it ?
Thanks for your encouragement. After long posts it is heartening that something I post is appreciated instead of being ridiculed.

there is a possibility to make it stealth on the line of F-35 in mk-III. But it wont be useful. Because stealth involves a lot of compromise for internal weapon bays. Already even in mk-II version LCA wont have more than 5 tons wepon loads at the most. So if we plan it as stealth mk-III it will have at the most 1.5 or two tons internal weapon load.Considering the excess power requirements for avionics and cooling it wont be meaningful at all.

But what it can do is to be the trial blazer for AURA stealth craft ,considering similar engine power and avionic requirements.AMCA is the way forward for stealth.Single engine stealth craft will face ridicule like the F-35 with little power,low weapon load,low specs.COnsidering passive stealths like AURA will play the most important part in detecting 5th gen bigger stealths with a ton or more weapon load and bag full of sesnsors it's importance cannot be understated.

It is really a waste of pilot skills to build small F-35 like single engine stealth,especially if in 10 years anti stealth measures are deployed.

Unlike in non stealths a single engined stealth wont hold it's own against twin engined stealths as stealth platform saps too much power for cooling need,avionics needs and for the compromises made to aerodynamic to retain stealth.

But even the AMCA will draw a lot of expertise from LCA as it too will be a delta platform akin to rafales superlative performance after the experience with mirage.Added bonus is the mastering of cranked arrow compound delta design perfected on LCA.


That's the reason for f-35's poor specs vis a vis F-22,unlike non stealths.
 
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p2prada

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^^ I appreciate your efforts mate in bringing that much about LCA. :thumb: I also appreciate p2p's criticism as critical analysis is as important as appreciative analysis.
He is like Zaid Hamid. DFI version.

If we talk about LCA mk-III as a stealth platform, then I think LCA's too small size makes it unfit for having big internal weapons bay, if we miniaturise missiles and bombs then it will be possible, but that is unlikely to happen. LCA's complete wing design will have to be changed for stealth purpose, but as the DRDO engineers have expressed the possibility of stealth LCA, it would be interesting to see if they can do it ! but if they do it then it can become a damn stealthy jet. I was just looking at the picture of LCA's belly and thinking that how can an internal weapons bay will be adjusted in that very small place, rather it will start looking something like AURA if turned into stealth. What do you guys think about it ?
It is funny that the only journalist who reported news about LCA Mk3 is a journalist from Sweden and more importantly he reported it all WRONG. He goes wrong with AMCA too, "empty weight."



Many jingoes are expecting a 3rd LCA model. :laugh:

He says that in 2 years ADA will flight test the LCA Mk3. As a matter of fact he is talking about the Mk2. There is no Mk3.

LCA mk2 will only be at the level of Rafale, EF or Gripen once ready. It is not a stealth aircraft. It will only have a low RCS.

AURA will be better than LCA Mk2 in the strike role. It will be of a similar size, will have the Kaveri engine and will supposedly carry 2 500Kg (o 1000Kg) weapons within the internal bay. It will be a flying wing design which means massive range. It will be bigger and heavier than LCA. No fancy maneuvering though.
 

ersakthivel

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He is like Zaid Hamid. DFI version.



It is funny that the only journalist who reported news about LCA Mk3 is a journalist from Sweden and more importantly he reported it all WRONG.



Many jingoes are expecting a 3rd LCA model. :laugh:

He says that in 2 years ADA will flight test the LCA Mk3. As a matter of fact he is talking about the Mk2. There is no Mk3.

LCA mk2 will only be at the level of Rafale, EF or Gripen once ready. It is not a stealth aircraft. It will only have a low RCS.

AURA will be better than LCA Mk2 in the strike role. It will be of a similar size, will have the Kaveri engine and will supposedly carry 2 500Kg (o 1000Kg) weapons within the internal bay. It will be a flying wing design which means massive range. It will be bigger and heavier than LCA. No fancy maneuvering though.
You are mistaking me.That is the same view I posted just a few seconds before.. I don't hold anything personal against anyone.I am no jingo either .

http://www.airfleet.ru/files/airflee...eet-2009-1.pdf


It seems you are going by the ill informed media reportslike the one above regarding the specs of LCA. Only after reading the article, I realized that all your specs of LCA is matching that article.That's how foreign publication ridicules LCA thanks to pony reporting by some of our media guys.

the article too is dated 2009.very old and ill written,without differentiating from the naval LCA's weight reduction consultancy has no relation to m IAF lca's .

AOA and G limits won't be opened in full before the all important spin recovery tests.Because aircraft's performance in stall speeds and it's ability to recover from critical AOA without stall should be tested before any full opening of the FCS envelope for reaching it's design AOA and G limits.
it is the norm in any fighter program.
Thanks
 
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LETHALFORCE

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Chindits: LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar

LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar

Only been hearing about the E F414 that will power the LCA Tejas Mk-II, never heard anything about the radar, but at the recently concluded International Conference on Energising Aerospace Industry, got to know that the AESA will be on the Mk-II, indigenously built, making the Mk-II a full-fledged multirole fighter, besides other stuff like new avionics and airframe.

Right now under design and conception stage, the radar will have some help from outside, but largely home-built.

Indigenous content on the Mk-II will be 75 per cent. First flightof Mk-II expected in 2013 and induction into the IAF approximately by 2015.
 
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