ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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LETHALFORCE

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older article still recent

DRDO Surges Ahead With 2nd Phase of AEW&CS, Plans to Integrate AESA Radar on Tejas Mark 2 as Well

DRDO Surges Ahead With 2nd Phase of AEW&CS, Plans to Integrate AESA Radar on Tejas Mark 2 as Well

The state-run Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) have received sanctions to pursue the second phase of AEW&CS (Airborne Early Warning and Control System) programme. In a recent report, DRDO Chief Dr.VK Saraswat has stated that the project will be called AEW&CS India and the requisite sanctions have been granted for the same. Besides, the homegrown AESA radar will also be integrated into the Tejas Mark II LCA.

According to DRDO Chief Dr.VK Saraswat, the AEW&CS project will be developed like the three Phalcon AEW&C systems acquired from Israel. Once the full clearance is acquired, DRDO will be selecting a platform based upon the radar configuration. DRDO indicated that the full clearance from the government is imminent since sanctions have been given.

Regarding the DRDO strategy, the indigenous Airborne Warning & Control System (AWACS) capabilities will be developed through a two pronged approach. The first phase will involve the mounting of the already developed radar system onto the Embraer aircraft from Brazil. The first of the three Embraer aircraft will be in India by this month end.

DRDO Chief Saraswat stated that the first phase is going smoothly the radar system will be integrated on the first Embraer aircraft this month. He added that dummy radar has already been integrated in Brazil on the platform and DRDO is satisfied with all parameters and integration activities of aircraft. Basically, the first phase of the AWACS will have surveillance capabilities in limited sectors with limited endurance capabilities.

Since two more Embraer aircraft will come to India next year, the indigenous radars are also getting ready for integration on them. DRDO has indicated that the AWACS project is its priority and that the three Embraer aircraft with the AWACS systems will be completely operational by 2014-15, according to DRDO.

Regarding the AEW&CS India project, DRDO indicated that it will be developing a complete 360 degree surveillance system. The technology which has been realized for the AWACS programme will be directly applicable in the second phase of the project. However, the configuration will be to ensure that there is 360 degree coverage. Unlike the phase one system with limited endurance, this will have larger power and reach in terms of the surveillance capability.

DRDO Chief VK Saraswat has also divulged into the details of the indigenously developed Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in the AEW&CS project. Hailing the radar as the one the best in the world, DRDO chief said that it can capture images and send to the ground control centers besides incorporating all the features of an airborne surveillance system. It has unmatchable resolution, performance and electronic warfare capability.

The AESA radar is also expected to be integrated with the Tejas Mark II LCA besides other programmes. DRDO Chief added that the work is already on and the Tejas Mark-2 will have nothing but the AESA radar. The DRDO lab LRDE is working on the TR (Transmitter & Receiver) modules for the same. Apparently, it is now possible to configure small as well as large AESA radar. The advantage of AESA is that more power can be derived if you increase the numbers of TR modules. DRDO's AESA radar will be of same size and volume of the present radar integrated on Tejas Mark-1. Once the work starts for the Mark-2 of Tejas aircraft, the old radar will be simply replaced by the indigenous AESA radar.
 

ersakthivel

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If all nations like china,us and RUSSIA seriously pursue a single engines stealth then ADA can seriously consider building a jet bigger than tejas mk-II with a suitable bigger engine. But if F-35 like jets fail to get a good response ADA should seriously think over it before r proceeding further.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Single Engine Fighter have there own advantages..

1. Low operating cost..

2. Low maintenance cost..

3. Smaller RCS..


One should know that IAF ability to keep a large air-force operational even in days of sanctions, the credit goes to Single engine fighters with highest sorties..

One does not need awacs for long range interception but ground radars which help to do so..
 

arya

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corruption is running many family thats why we are not developing anything new in defence

we just buy from other countries and lots of peoples make money i mean big money
 

pankaj nema

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Without LCA MK1 there can be no LCA Mk2

And Without LCA mk 2 there can be NO AMCA

SO again we go back to the LOST 25 years of Sixties and seventies and half of eighties
when we had shut down our aviation industry
 

ersakthivel

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China, Russia Could Make U.S. Stealth Tech Obsolete | Danger Room | Wired.com

Forum members can go to the above link and study for themselves why 4.5 gen fighters like LCA tejas won't be irrelevant in tomorrow's stealth world .
Stealth technology — which today gives U.S. jets the nearly unparalleled ability to slip past hostile radar — may soon be unable to keep American aircraft cloaked. That's the potentially startling conclusion of a new report from Barry Watts, a former member of the Pentagon's crystal-ball-gazing Office of Net Assessment and current analyst with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments in Washington.

Stealth-killing advances include VHF and UHF radars being developed by Russia and China, and a "passive-detection" system devised by Czech researchers. The latter "uses radar, television, cellular phone and other available signals of opportunity reflected off stealthy aircraft to find and track them," Watts explain


"The advantages of stealth "¦ may be eroded by advances in sensors and surface-to-air missile systems, especially for manned strike platforms operating inside defended airspace," Barry Watts cautions in his 43-page report The Maturing Revolution in Military Affairs (.pdf), published last week.
This is what also reported in the posts by KUNAL BISWAS .Present generation of stealths are only optimized for below 6 inch wavelength x band shortwave radars that are widely in use on today's fighters.The 5th gen is NOT STEALTH to L band waves with wavelength from 6 inches to 2 feet and VHF and UHF radar waves that have 2 meters or more wavelength.

Once airbourne radars switched to these L band and VHF ,UHF frequencies the game is over for stealth crafts. Right now thwy consume more power and their production standards are not accurate enough for BVR locks. But it is already cahanging and it will continue to change for in a very detrimental way to 5th gen stealths.

So investsments in LCA tejas will be relevant for a long time to come. It is not like the moment J-20 took off it is game over for teajs like 4th gen as it is made out to be.By the time J-20 acquires suitable engine and avionics detection technologies with VHf and UHF radars along with IRST carrying stealth ucavs will pinpoint thier location to TEJAS like 4th gen.
 

ersakthivel

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This is from his revolution in military affairs paper .chapter-7 ----counter stealth

In recent years there has been speculation that ongoing advances in radar
detection and tracking will, in the near future, obviate the ability of all-aspect,
low-observable (LO) aircraft such as the B-2, F-22, and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
(JSF) to survive inside denied airspace.

Those taking this view emphasize at least
two promising approaches to counter-LO, both of which are being pursued by the
Russians, Czechs, and others. One involves very high frequency (VHF) and ultra
high frequency (UHF) radars, which use relatively long wavelengths of about 30
centimeters to six meters.


The radar cross section (RCS) of an aircraft not only
varies with the wavelength of the radar trying to detect the plane, but the aircraft's
RCS is larger for long-wavelength search radars compared to its RCS as seen by
the shorter, X-band radars typically used by SAMs for fire-control.57 Radar physics,
therefore, argues that VHF and UHF search radars offer greater potential
to detect and track stealthy aircraft.

Granted, the historically poor resolution
in angle and range has prevented traditional long-wavelength radars from providing
fire-control-quality data. However, as fully digital versions of these radars
incorporating active electronically scanned arrays (AESAs) proliferate, they will
present a growing challenge to current and even future stealth aircraft


The other promising approach to counter LO has been passive systems such as
the Czech VERA-E, which uses radar, television, cellular phone and other available
signals of opportunity reflected off stealthy aircraft to find and track them.59
The main limitation of such systems has been the enormous signal-processing
power and memory required to analyze all these emissions, differentiate real
targets from ghost signals, noise and clutter, and keep the false alarm rate to
manageable levels.

One potential outcome, however, is that as long-wave radars
transition to AESAs (and assuming computational power continues to double
every two years or so in accordance with Gordon Moore's "law"), information
acquisition will overwhelm the capacity of aerospace engineers to reduce platform
signatures.61 The balance between information acquisition and information
denial will swing dramatically in favor of the former.

Or, to put the point more
bluntly, there will come a time in the not-too-distant future when the SAMs will
almost always win againstair-breathing penetrating platforms, rendering operations
inside denied airspace too costly to bear.

Is this forecast accurate? A definitive answer to this question would obviously
require access to data on current and projecteprojected capabilities for reducing radar
signatures and countering advanced SAMs that are highly classified (and rightly
so). Nevertheless, there are substantial reasons to doubt this conclusion. First
and foremost, the very same shift to digital AESA radars and continuing growth
in computational power that aids the "finders" can also be exploited by stealthy
"hiders."

For example, the JSF's sensor suite and computational power, which
can be easily upgraded over time due to the plane's open avionics architechture ,
gives the F-35 an ability to adjust its flight path in real time in response to pop-up
threats, something neither the F-117 nor the B-2 have been able to do. Second, the
F-35 has an AESA radar that can be used for electronic attack of enemy air defenses
as well as digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) capabilities that offer
the potential to increase survivability "by delaying, denying, and defeating threat
air-to-air and surface-to-air missile systems operating in the radio frequency
spectrum.

A DRFM countermeasures system can duplicate an incoming signal
from enemy radars by converting it from analog to digital and back again. In
between, DRFM can modify the digital duplicate so that, when converted back
to analog and retransmitted, the manipulated signal will be coherent with the
threat radar.DRFM signal manipulation can deceive threat radars by altering
the target's apparent RCS, range, velocity, and angle.


Third, unlike the F-117 and
B-2 that operated singly (and only at night), the F-35, like the F-22, has the survivability
for daytime operations and will probably operate in networked groups
of four or eight aircraft, thereby greatly multiplying their capacity to overcome
enemy air defenses, to include destroying S"‘300/400/500 class SAMs.

There is,
then, a lot more to the information competition between hiders and finders than
the shift to digital electronics and advances in computational power. Exploiting
ongoing technological advances is not limited to SAM "finders," and historically
airmen have proven surprisingly adept time and again at finding ways to overcome
adversary air defenses.


Finally, there is the issue of the extent to which the U.S. military has actually
embraced all-aspect, LO combat aircraft since the Air Force declared a limited
initial operational capability (IOC) with the F-117 in October 1983.64 When the
last of the Air Force's 187 F-22s are delivered, all-aspect, LO fighters and bombers
will still constitute less than 8 percent of the Service's inventory of combat
aircraft.

If Navy and Marine combat aircraft are included, the percentage drops
to 5.5 percent. It would appear, therefore, that more than a quarter-century after
the F-117's IOC, the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps have yet to embrace stealth
as a numerically significant component of their combat air forces. If the 2,443
JSFs now planned are eventually procured, this situation will be reversed and
all-aspect, LO aircraft will make up around 70 percent of the U.S. inventory by
2035, when the last of F-35As are produced for the Air Force.

The senior DoD decision
makers who remain firmly committed to the JSF program are, of course,
in positions to evaluate the viability of all-aspect, low observability into the 2040s.
Implicitly at least, their continuing commitment to the F-35 suggests that they do
not believe that the era of stealth aircraft is about to come to an end.
So at last the only possibility of 5th gen F-35 like x band stealths to win over LCA tejas like 4.5 gen is to rely on DRFM signal manipulation that will deceive the enemy radar.What is ironic is that it has no relation to stealth ,it is just an electronic counter measure that can be had on tejas. RAFALE also employs the same thing in the name of SPECTRA.


First, there's "the JSF's sensor suite and computational power," which Watts explains "can be easily upgraded over time due to the plane's open avionics architecture, giv[ing] the F-35 an ability to adjust its flight path in real time in response to pop-up threats, something neither the F-117 nor the B-2 have been able to do."

Second, the F-35"²s radar, a so-called "electronically scanned array," could in theory be used to jam an enemy radar or even slip malicious software code into its control system.

Neither of these capabilities is actually a form of stealth, per se. Rather, they would complement the F-35"²s ability to absorb or deflect radar waves. Described uncharitably, the Air Force has had to add nonstealthy skills to its stealth fighters, just to help them survive.
So for tomorrows stealth to retain it's advantage it has to employ the same counter measure that can be employed by LCA and SPECTRA also.
In the same way LCA can also use the same DFRM to confuse the F-35s radar and remain stealth to F-35.

The most important thing unsaid in this article is the assumption DFRM method that F-35 will deploy will take care of all tracking radars simultaneously.

That is seriously an impossibility. No amount of power output from F-35's DRFM suit can tackle 100s of airbourne VHF and UHF radars of the future.So once again the point defence game boils down to good number of decent 4.5 gen like tejas with sound ECM capability. e.
 
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ersakthivel

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Show this paper to average american, he needs to read it.
I would like all regular forum members to comment upon it. So that we can once for all settle this fallacy that ADA is saddling IAF with non stealth obsolete aircrafts like LCA tejas as it is repeatedly made out in this forum. The article specifically mentions MOORE's LAW of electronics " That processing power will double every 18 months".So the VHF and UHF radars will catch up with X band AEASs of today in giving BVR locks to LCA like 4.5 gen in firing their BVRson the 5th gen in the same manner that today's 5th gen fighter can get a BVR lock on 4.5 gen planes with their X band aeas radar.

This is straight from the horse's mouth and as authentic as it gets with out any hyperbole.So no doubting the authenticity of the source. These are not made up creative writing piece by myself.

And both will employ the same DFRM counter measures on each other. So the playing field will be level.

Members please post their views.

Thanks.
 
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Defcon 1

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I would like all regular forum members to comment upon it. So that we can once for all settle this fallacy that ADA is saddling IAF with non stealth obsolete aircrafts like LCA tejas as it is repeatedly made out in this forum. The article specifically mentions MOORE's LAW of electronics " That processing power will double every 18 months".So the VHF and UHF radars will catch up with X band AEASs of today in giving BVR locks to LCA like 4.5 gen in firing their BVRson the 5th gen in the same manner that today's 5th gen fighter can get a BVR lock on 4.5 gen planes with their X band aeas radar.

This is straight from the horse's mouth and as authentic as it gets with out any hyperbole.So no doubting the authenticity of the source. These are not made up creative writing piece by myself.

And both will employ the same DFRM counter measures on each other. So the playing field will be level.

Members please post their views.

Thanks.
You don't understand the point. Let me make it simple for you. Tell me any single advantage that LCA holds over other 4th gen aircrafts being operated around the world. You wouldn't find any.
 

Kunal Biswas

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LCA is better in many aspects compare to Most - Most so call forth-gen fighters..


1. Low operating cost

2. Low maintenance cost

3. Its performance in Leh is impressive where most other 4.5gen fighter failed, Credit goes to design and Engines..

4. LCA is lot stealthy coz of its most of airframe made of composite and further it is coated with special material to absorb and deflect radar waves, Its turbine blades are also hidden..

5. Radar and avionics is same as other most 4th gen fighters..
 

ersakthivel

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That was a cheap shot and a completely incorrect comparison. I thought his comments so far have been based on fact and yours has been based on opinions and articles you read (again mostly opinions).
All the spurious and budheaded LCA specs p2prada posts comes from this article only.Anyone can read and verify it.Including his claim that mig-21 bison (upgraded is 4 gen,and more useful than LCA.This article is more than 3 years old and author's tone throughout is so derisive if INDIA

http://www.airfleet.ru/files/airflee...eet-2009-1.pdf

On March 31, 1990, the new fighter project
was officially approved. At the end of the year a
LCA prototype construction was to be launched.
Note that the maiden flight of the new Indian
fighter was initially and optimistically planned for
1991, but later postponed until 1992. In 1990,
the Indian Defense Ministry announced that the
construction of the "demonstration" aircraft was
delayed until 1993 citing technical reasons so that
the wheeling-out was to take place in 1994 with
the maiden flight to follow no sooner than 1995.
All that meant that the beginning of series production
of the Indian fourth generation fighter would
start most optimistically in 1997 with the first
batch-produced jets to enter service not in 1996
as it was planned, but in the XXI century

the
supersonic F-16 and JAS 39 jets are considered by
the Indians as the LCA "gap fillers" in the frames
of the MMRCA program in 2009, 20 years after
the described events. It is really true that unlike
Europeans, who are always in a hurry, the sons of
the most ancient Indian civilization don't take two
or three decades for a long period of time even in
the dynamic field of military aircraft building.
The author can add civilizational experise to his CV besides his aeronautical expertise.How can a progarm whose main funding was approved in 1993 with restricted 2 tech demos only condition (?!!!) whose first TD flew in 2001 become two decades late




LCA was supposed
to start. Besides, a number of squadrons
initially planned to be fitted with LCA aircraft
were then to receive advanced MiG-21.21. Looking
ahead, it is noteworthy that we can see today this
scenario implemented: 125 MiG-21UPG entered
service of the Indian Air Force partly filling the
LCA "gap", the LCA Ðœk.1, which "do not entirely
meet the requirements of the Air Force" are being
batch-produced and the work on "full-fledged"
LCA Mk.2 completely satisfying the customer
demands have started.

How does MIG-21 becomes advanced than lca?? How come IAF order 20 initial lca MK-Is and later adding 20 more to it's initial order ,if it had a solid belief in the advanced MLG_21s?The author starts quoting partially opened flight envelope specs of LCA with a sole intention of discrediting ADA.Note he never got a single quote form ADA to publish along with his creative writing piece.Because as per global journalistic norms it is mandatory to approach the ADA to get clarifications regarding the shortfalls and why design insufficiensies arose in first place? and .get them published along with the article. But if one follows tabloid standards these are not needed ,of course.
In 1993, the Indian government finally sanctioned
the construction of a flight-demonstration
(experimental) LCA item. In the May of 1995,
the fuselage was launched into production, and
in December that year the coal-plastic wing followed.
The ceremonial wheeling-out of the LCA
TD1 (technological demonstrator, first) took place
on November 17, 1996 lagging nine months
behind the schedule. But the customizing of the jet
proved to be longer than expected and no sooner
than April 1997, test-pilot Rakesh Sharma, the
first Indian spaceman, who visited the Mir Soviet
Orbital Station, started the ground tests of the jet.
On January 4, 2001 the LCA fighter made
its maiden flight and was later named Tejas
(Radiance). On August 1, 2003 the jet exceeded
So where is the two decades delay?he conveniently omits that due to trenchant opposition from IAF chief KIRSHNAMOORTHY in his letter to PM the LCA program got truncated to two TDs only and only after all the technologies are proven there should be further funding for LSPs. SO till the TDs demonstrated all the techs till 2003 no LSP construction started.This delay is due to IAF's disbelief with ADA and not due to anything else by not allowing 7 or 8 prototypes construction along with TDs to speed up the flight testing regime.SO ADA has to wait till 2003 to receive it's LSPs.

The
Indian printed media said later that the LCA TD
"has a rate of climb exceeding that of MiG-29,"
which has the initial rate of climb of 300-330 mps
depending on the variant. But these claims are
likely to be invented by the authors.

The author of this article alone has the rights to invent claims.No one else in the world is even allowed to claim their fighters have more climb rate than mig-29s,because it is a glorious soviet product you see.
Foreign
composite materials were used to build the LCA TD
and PV aircraft to make 30-34% of the airframe,
which resulted in reduced weight and bearable
g-loads of between +8 and -3G

But lca airframe is tested upto 13 Gs in ground tests in structural rigs.
According to the Indian media reports, the
R&D works on the LCA program and construction
of TD1 and TD2 pilot aircraft cost India 21,880

Another bogus claim.The author could have asked the ada regarding the budget.Why should he go by indian nedia even without naming one?Is he writing a proper article or just debating in the forum?
The opinion of the U.S. experts about the LCA
aircraft is also of some interest. Having studied the
features of the aircraft, they said it was "the next
generation of F-5 type aircraft." They mentioned
that the design features of the fighter were high
enough with the small size and relatively low cost,
which would provide a good demand for it on the
world market. The Americans said, though, that
"the fighter has a relatively small specified life,
which will make it operational within 14 years,
whereas the advanced western fighters had the
same feature was much better." The ADA chiefs
said to clarify the point that the LCA operating life
was calculated based on heavy climate conditions
and if the aircraft is used in countries with a milder
climate, the specified life could be extended

This is another selfgoal by the author. The composites used normally have longer life under indian environs than the all metal russian fighters.BTW who are these all knowing US experts?He could have named them.
Due to the fast tempo of mastering the latest
technology in aircraft building showed by the
Indians, the LCA design specifications looked
impressive. So, while at the initial stage of the
program the design empty weigh was estimated
at 6,000 kg, then due to optimism in wide coalplastic
use the Indians decreased the weight to
the record low for a fighter of the class – to 5,500
kg, which seamed rather possible. The composite
materials were supposed to be used in the wing,
empennage and control surface design.

The present weight is 6.5 kg.(This statement by ADA surprised the great p2 prada so much and he admitted it in his post in a startling manner.I dont know ,why?)It is still possible according to CEILMAC ,HAL and ADA, with replacement of display mountings ,door panels ,engine mountings,LRU mountings and pylons with composites(coal plastic as per author!!!!!)
The percent of the composite materials used
in the LCA roughly twice exceeded that of the U.S.
F-22A Raptor fifth generation fighter and its Soviet
analogue MiG-MFI jet. For a comparison, the Saab
JAS 39 Gripen with a structure close to that of
the LCA and a similar engine (Svenska Flygmotor
RM12 based on the same F404) and a radar was
6,620 kg, that is 1,120 kg more. At the same
time, the internal fuel tanks of the Indian aircraft,
according to advertizing brochures, was to accommodate
2,400 kg of fuel compared to 2,270 kg of
the Saab aircraft. The LCA fuel efficiency was 0.44
compared to 0.34 of the Jas 39. The LCA predecessor
in the Indian Air Force, MiG-21bis (empty
weight – 5,350 kg), was fitted with the R-25-300
augmented turbojet engine with the thrust of 7,100
kgf and had only 1,790 kg of fuel in internal tanks
(fuel efficiency also 0.34). It is little surprise that
the LCA practical range of 2,000 km was to be
close to that of heavier fourth generation foreign
fighters (F-15 and F-16) and be much better than
that of not only MiG-21bis (1,250 km), but also of
Gripen (1,700-1,800) km.
The LCA thrust-to-weight ratio with the F404
with a normal takeoff weight was to be 0.91
compared to 0.81 of JAS 39 and 0.87 of MiG-
21bis, which would in theory give the Indian
aircraft acceleration and maneuverability features
exceeding foreign aircraft of the same class.

LOOK HOW AUTHOR USES PROPER WORD COMPOSITES WHEN IT COMES TO COMPARISION WITH f-22!!!!!!!!AND MIG 1.44,WHY DOESN'T HE USES THE WORDS COAL PLASTIC???? Btw all these design specs are nearly achievable in mk_II and future MK-I upgrades.
PV1 took off on November 25, 2005, and
the PV2 followed on December 1, 2005. Exactly
a year later, on December 1, 2006, flight tests of
the PV3 started.

The reason PV-1 took off in 2005 is due to MOD's insistence that PVs should be built only after the TDs demonstrated all design performance.The MOD was forced into this position after trenchant criticism from IAF that the program is not possible and ADA has no expertise in this field through letters by ACN Kirshnamoorthy to PN and RM ..It continues to this day.It took ABDUL KALAM to broker a compromise so that TWO TDs are built at first to demonstrate the tech and then the program should be allowed to go ahead. MOD agreed and that's why the PV took off in 2005.But the author completely ignores these facts.
It should be mentioned that the takeoff weight
of empty demonstrator aircraft LCA TD was far
from the announced record low figure for the
series aircraft and totaled according to the Indian
media 6,800 kg. The pre-series LCA PV1 had more
carbon-plastic and the weight reduced to 6,300 kg.
The LCA PV2 had the design composite material
figure of 43%. But this fighter was also fitted with
some organic electronic equipment, armament,
as well as some onboard systems, which were
not installed on previous versionsThe exceeding weight
became one of the crucial problems for the Tejas
makers"¦

So he effectively concedes that once test equipment is removed the PV-2s weight will reduce further from 6300 kg.The excess weight is due to the payload increase design specs incorporated after the successful flight of TDs.According to CEILMAC it can be further reduced.It is further reducable according to CEILMAC ,HAL and ADA, with replacement of display mountings ,door panels ,engine mountings,LRU mountings and pylons with composites(coal plastic as per author!!!!!)
On April 12, 2007, the first series Tejas Mk.1
fighter LSP1 made its maiden test flight. On June
16, 2008 it was followed by LSP2 (former PV4).
Another six series aircraft (LSР-3 – LSР-8) were
supposed to be tested until the end of 2008, but
when the article was being written the information
on LSР-3 – LSР-8 flights was not available

The LSP-7 already in the air.The delay is due to the fuel leak issue and reworking of fuel and hydraulic lines of all the LSPs,That's why almost an year is lost.
Unlike the fighters of other developing nations,
which are powered by engines made in Russia, the
U.S., France, or the U.K., a decision was made to
develop a specific engine for the Indian fighter,
which would compete with fourth generation
bypass turbofan engines with afterburner

But a fall back option is provided incase of kaveri not upto the mark,as usual author blithely ignores this.
The light single-engine multipurpose fighter
has the tailless aerodynamic structure with a high
delta wing variable-swept on the fore edge, singlefin
tail unit and one bypass turbofan engine with
afterburner installed at the fuselage rear. The static
stability of the aircraft is reduced. The Tejas features,
the designers claim, are to be as follows:
– high maneuverability;
– multifunctionality;
– all-weather day and night capability;
– compatibility of cockpit instrumental equipment
with night vision goggles;
– low radar echo, which is one third of that of
similar size fighters (that is about 2 m2).

How does he arrives at 2sq meter RCS figure,of course by imagination as usual.Because it can never have a lesser RCS than the all time great MIG-21 Bison UPG.It would be blasphemous if it has lower rcs than the MIGs.
The aerodynamic structure of the aircraft is
claimed to provide minimal wind resistance, little
specific wing load, high rate of turn for bank, yaw and
pitch, as well as good takeoff and landing features.
About 43% of the series-produced LCA airframe
is made of composite materials. The fighter
skin is 90% composite materials.
The fighter's wing has reduced sweep in the
root which is made in order to provide the pilot
with forward and downward lookout as it is stated.
A three-piece wing-slat is situated on the wing
leading edge and the wing trailing edge is occupied
with two-piece elevons

This is how he denigrates the compound delta design of LCA.JUST TO PROVIDE A BETTER VIEW FOR THE PILOT. I AM YET TO COME ACROSS A MORE MISCHEVIOUS STATEMENT ON LCA ON THE NET.The job of reduced sweep it is to provide delaying of flow separation in high AOA manuevers and improve low speed handling chareceteristics ,not to provide a better view for the pilot's picnic.

Though dimensions of «Ajita» are brought to a
minimum that together with the use of composite
materials provides it with small optical and radartracking
signature. In the aircraft design a number
of additional measures on decrease of radar crosssection
are implemented. Such measures are:
– Giving to channels of the air intake of the
bent Y-shaped form, aimed to shield compressor
blades from direct radar tracking;
– Rather wide application of radio absorbing
materials and coverings;
– Use of passive sensors
But it will still have 2 sq meter MIG-21 RCS.Howls that possible?
The plane having reduced static stability is
equipped with the Martin Marietta four-channel
digital electronic remote control system with the
higher level of protection against external electromagnetic
influences. There are no duplicating
analogue or mechanical systems onboard
The plane has RELAXED STATIC STABILITY not reduced static stability ,If people write like this with out even using proper wordswhy are they publishing this garbage? The term reduced points to deficiency in design for general readers..
As a result the "Tejas" Mk.1
aircrafts as it turns out, possess underestimated
(in comparison with the estimated) flight characteristics
and do not correspond even to «minimal
requirements of the customer for combat load».
It was reported, that the weight of empty
"Tejas" MK.1 aircraft exceeds the estimated one
by 1500 kg, i.e. makes not less than 7000 kg (and
probably more). It is necessary to say, that the
growth of the craft's weight during its designing
is quite usual. For example Mig-29 became 1.13
times heavier during the period between the initial
project and the first serial fighter (from 9,670 to
10,900 kg) that however didn't make any remarkable
consequences for the program. Probably
the weight of the US F-35 grew even more significantly
but also did not result in any troubles
for the designers.
He starts his excess 1500 kg weight drivel again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.cleverly concealing that weight increase despite increased usage of composites is dus to the weapon load increase to 3.5 ton from the original Mig spec of 2 tons. From this point onwards he repeatedly denigrates the plane without any single clarification from ADA regarding why the weight increase? Can it be reduced with more usage of composites,despite the availability of CEILMAC reports.
However the increase of this
major characteristic by 1.27-1.30 times nevertheless
forced the Air Forces of India reject further
purchases of this "overweight" fighter
As usual his own genious self.
 
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venkat

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You don't understand the point. Let me make it simple for you. Tell me any single advantage that LCA holds over other 4th gen aircrafts being operated around the world. You wouldn't find any.
Its "made in India" !!!! you got it? The Russians are sucking us, the English have done it and hope the French will start soon. I am fully with sakthivel and I understand his anguish and angst!!!
 
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ersakthivel

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You don't understand the point. Let me make it simple for you. Tell me any single advantage that LCA holds over other 4th gen aircrafts being operated around the world. You wouldn't find any.
For the point defence roles it can do as well as grippen or j-10 or f-16 according to it's design specs.
Please post what are the advantages held by other single egined 4th gens that cant be had on lca mk-II
 

ersakthivel

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continued from my previous post.

All the spurious and budheaded LCA specs p2prada posts comes from this article only.Anyone can read and verify it.Including his claim that mig-21 bison (upgraded is 4 gen,and more useful than LCA.This article is more than 3 years old and author's tone throughout is so derisive if INDIA

http://www.airfleet.ru/files/airflee...eet-2009-1.pdf

However the increase of this
major characteristic by 1.27-1.30 times nevertheless
forced the Air Forces of India reject further
purchases of this "overweight" fighter
As usual his own genious self.
Excessive
weight of the LCA can be possibly explainedwith too optimistic belief of the developers in the
composition materials design of the glider and
overestimation of their ability to work with carbon
fiber-reinforced plastic. Probably, the acquiring
of extra weight appeared during the design of a
number of systems also took place.
Witout even having the courtesy to ask ADA through a simple email, he goes on to DISCOVER HIS OWN REASONS FOR WEIGHT INCREASE.
Thus, serial «Tejas» weighs much more than
its Swedish analogue «Gripen». It has inevitably
caused correction of other characteristics of
the fighter. So, thrust/weight ratio of the fighter
(0.75-0.78 at normal take-off weight) became a
little bit less than at MiG-21bison. Maneuverability,
acceleration characteristics and climbing capacity
also decreased. Combat load of 4000 kg became
unattainable for «Tejas» Mk.1. Now it may reach
1500-2000 kg as its best (not exceeding the corresponding
parameter of Mig-21). Most likely,
these aircrafts became comparable in the criterion
of «range – combat load».
FROM NOW ON HE WRITES PRETTY MUCH WHAT HE LIKES,GIVING TRUTH A LONG HOLIDAY,HELL WITH THE ADA ,SONS OF THOUSAND YEAR OLD CIVILIZATION WHO WILL LEISURELY TAKE 2 DECADES TO DELIVER AN LCA THAT HAS LOWER SPECS ADN LOWER SPEEDS AND EQUAL RCS THAN THE MIGS,WITH THEIR MISPLACED CONFIDENCE IN "COAL PLASTICS" OF COURSE.
In various sources it was specified, that the
maximum speed of LCA should be М=1.6-1.8.
However during tests, judging by the media reports,
the value of M did not exceed 1.4. Probably this
value is also maximum for serial «Tejas
iT HAS ALREADY ACHIEVED 1.6 MACH BUT WHO CARES FOR THE TRUTH?
As a result of all these disappointments in
the end of 2008 the MoD of India took a serious
decisionfor itself to refuse further purchases of the
«Tejas» Мк.1 fighters, having limited the number
of serial fighters with 20 units (i.e. one squadron).
It has endangered the further continuation of the
whole program. It is possible to assume with ahigh level of probability, that after similar delays
and technical failures any European, US or Russian
program in the field of military aircraftwould be
stopped (enough to remember a sad destiny of
US programs of F-111B, А-12 (АТА), RAH-66
«Comanche» or our program called MFI). However
for India the «Tejas» aircraft is nevertheless more
than just an aircraft. «Shining» is a symbol of
appropriation of entire independencein such major
for national defense area as military aircraft engineering
by the state. For such country as India
which has ancient cultural traditions, huge human
potential and thus some centuries were under a
colonial heel, it has not only defensive, but also
huge political value. Therefore it is possible to
expect, that program the LCA program nevertheless
will be continued and led to victorious end
NOW THE CAT IS OUT OF THE BAG.HE REVEALS HIS TRUE INTENTIONS BEHIND THIS EPIC NATERPIECE OF A WRITE UP.THE LCA PROGRAM SHOULD BE SCRAPPED
Though it was decided to abstain from further
serial orders of the "Tejas" Mk.1 aircrafts, the
Indian Air Forces and the HAL company work
on the sophisticated version of the craft called
«Tejas» Мk.2. However the new contracts for
the serial production with the ADA agency will
be signed only after it is obvious, that this craft
meets the minimal requirements of the country
Air Forces.

HAL NEVER WORKS ON THE sophisticated version of the craft called
«Tejas.IT IS ADA THAT HAS THE JOB OF LCA MK-II.THE AUTHOR IS SO DUBIOUS IN HIS INTENTIONS.the mk-II is primarily for extended range more payload capacity with more powerful engine available(which was not available when lca program began) and for increasing the aerodynamics.
One more basic difference of «Tejas» Mk.2
from Mk.1 can be a new radar complex. By 2004
after many years of delays two MMR test radar
stations were constructed. However in 2006 it
became known that works on creation of this aircraft
radar met serious problems which questioned
terms of completion of the program
The indigenous LLR with israeli processor is already flying. ASEA development for nk-II is in full force.
In January, 2009 the ADA agency signed the
contract with the European concern EADS, providing
rendering to the Indian party help in updating
«Tejas». Thus the main attention will be paid to
struggle for weight decrease and measures for
chassis strengthening as well. The program is calculated
for 48 months. Thus the first «Tejas» Mk.2
in the serial configuration will take off not earlier
than in 2014, i.e. practically simultaneously with
the India-Russian fighter of the 5th generation.
another clever piece of fraud. The contract for weight optimization of tejas landing gear is for the NAVY'S PV,NOT FOR AIRFORCE PV.
AS USUAL THE AUTHOR CONTINUES TO GRAPPLE WITH NON EXISTANT WEIGHT CONCERNS.ADA and CEILMAC can take him on board regarding this issue and get some valuable advice regarding"COAL PLASTICS " IN THIS REGARD.It will atleast save LCA some bad press if not anything else.
We remind that initially it was planned, that
the LCA aircrafts first of all will replace the fighters
of MiG-21 type and «Ajit». However «Ajit» "quitted
the stage" in 1991 still before the prototype
of «Tejas» took off for the first time. Later the
MiG-23BN fighter-bombers (entered the service f
the India AF after the failure with "Marut") were
added to the list of aircrafts submitted for replacement
for LCA. However and these crafts left the
service in 2007 not being replaced with a new
Indian multipurpose fighter. The MiG-21Ml and
MiG-23MF aircrafts also should be replaced since
2012 not with «Tejas» but with the multipurpose
MMRCA fighter
MEMBERS OF THE FORUM PLEASE INFORM WHEN WAS IAF FIELDING A FIGHTER NAMED AJEET.WHICH SEEMS TO BE A TOP SECRET INFORMATION DISCLOSED BY THE IAF CHIEF HIMSELF IN CONFIDENCE TO THE AUTHOR.
p2 prad says sukhoi is replacing the MIG-21, authir says NNRCA is replacing MIG-21,I say LCA is replacing mig-21.it seems the nig-21 has so many replacements!!!!!!!!!!!
In 1996 the Russian-Indian contract providing
modernization of 125 MiG-21bis fightersto the
level of MiG-21-93 has been signed. The modernized
MiGs which got an Indian name MiG-21UPG
(sometimes they are called MiG-21bison) started
to arrive in the Indian Air Forces in 2002, and by
2008 the program had been practically finished.
Modernization concerned basically the onboard
radio electronic equipment and weapons of the
aircraft. «Bison» has received new pulse-dopler
radar «Kopiyo-21I» with slit antenna, practically
not conceding to the MMR station created for LCA
(target detection range with radar cross-section
of 3 м2 is 57 km, simultaneous tracking of eight
and engagement of two targets), modern weapons
control system, allowing to use the guided "airto-
air" and "air-to-surface" weapons, the inertial
navigation system upgraded with the module of
satellite navigation and also the complex of weapons
practically identical with the corresponding
complex of LCA. Thus the modernized aircraft
completely kept the high flight characteristics of
the MiG-21bis fighter whichnot concede to the
characteristics of «Tejas»
So lca is a loser to mig-21 bisons with the old sixties engines.So we need not even replace them with mmrca or lca.we can just call the author and constitute a serial production ilne for the MIG-21 then all problens are solved.Pity the fools in HAL and IAF dint even know this. It can carry four ton loads with much loweR wing loading than the LCA and with it's sixties engine will finish off E-16s and J-10s .FOOLS ,SOONS OF 2000 YEAR OLD CIVILIZATION DONT EVEN KNOW THIS. iF A FEW HUNDRED PILOTS DIE IN THIS PROCESS,IT MUST BE ACCEPTED AS PART OF THE NATION BUILDING PROGRAM.
After 125 MiG-21UPG practically corresponded
to the level of generation «4 +» became part of the
Indian Air Forces the problem of the 2nd generation
fighters replacementbecame much less sharp.

CLAP!!!!!!!!!! GENTLEMEN THE 4TH GEN MIG-21 BISONS HAVE ARRIVED .
AND WE CAN JUNK THESE NO GEN BLOODY LCA EJAS WITH FULL DIGITAL FCS,TAIL LESS DELTA TO EXCELL IN HIGH ALTITUDE,,SUPERB LOW WING LOADING ,AGILE IN VERTICAL PLANE,COMPOSITE MATERIAL IN TO THE ARABIAN SEA.
It may have allowed the management of the Indian
Air Forces to take easy the regular delay of the LCA
program connected with the necessity of creation
of a new modification of this fighter, deprived of
the disadvantages of the 1st generation fighters.
Most likely the modernized Swedish fighter
«Gripen» NG which started flight tests in 2008 will
become the nearest analogue of «Tejas» Mk.2. This
aircraft equipped with a new onboard radar with
automatic phased array has the extended fuselage
with the volume of the fuel tanks increased by 40
% and the F414G engine (10,000 kg(f), allowing to
fly with supersonic cruiser speed (up to М=1.2).
The weight of the empty aircraft has increased by
400 kg (i.e. to 7000-7100 kg), the maximum takeoff
weight has made 16,000 kg, and ferry range
with full fuel tanks is 4070 km.

and we can all buy grippen and fund the SAAB's NG upgrade.stupid 2000 year old civilization sons of india don't even know this. genious from russia is at hand to shine the beacons light.Peopme like p2pada are already following it.we should all stand in a q with the.
Any characteristics of LCA-Navy were not
announced but it is known that the weight of this
fighter is 800 kg more than the weight of «Ajita»
Mk.1 (i.e. should make about 8,000 kg).
WHO IS AJITHA MAN? AUTHOR'S GIRL FRIEND?
Thus it is required to add changes in the
design of the deck-based aircraft similar to the
changes in the design of«Tejas». As a result the
weight of the deck-based craft will grow even
more, that will inevitably require more increase
the wing area. The power-plant problem may also
require resolving: even at transition to the F404
augmented dual-flow turbojet (10,000 kg(f) the
thrust/weight ration of the deck-based aircraft
can appear insufficient to take off with full combat
load from a launching-ramp. Apparently, the
Indian designers will encounter many difficulties
in order to to deny the Americans convinced, that
it is almost impossible to make a good deck-based
aircraft of an land-based fighter...
bloody fools in indian navy are wasting taxpayers money on navan lca.please collect the pearls of wisdom from the author and save india
There ends the epic master piece by "AIR FLEET-200".BYE........
 
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p2prada

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That was a cheap shot and a completely incorrect comparison.
Not to me. Any wrong information can be corrected. Any wrong information which the person does not want to correct and continues claiming even more outrageous,

I thought his comments so far have been based on fact and yours has been based on opinions and articles you read (again mostly opinions).
Your thoughts are only based on one simple psychological trait, you want him to be right and me wrong. It does not matter if his claims defy physics or aerodynamic laws. Anything is fine as long as you keep believing his nonsense.

If that is so, then let us get some facts straight.

1) AWACS will provide BVR locks. False. The example I gave in Rahul Singh's post shows that. The AWACS could see the target but the F-16s had to struggle to find the Mig that was only 35 miles away. Mig as we know can be a -29, 27, 21 or 23. All 4 aircraft have a very large RCS even when clean let alone with weapons. LCA's radar = F-16s radar, fact. In a combat environment the airspace to be searched is very large, a small fighter's radar is useless when up against 5th generation aircraft. It does not matter what you put in that small radar, it is still a small radar. Physics laws cannot be defied.

Flying Magazine - Google Books

Read page 69, you will understand how difficult it is to get radar lock or even detection on large RCS aircraft like Migs, let alone small RCS aircraft like F-22.

2) LCA was designed as a fighter meant to be between a Mig-21 and a Mirage-2000. A very very very very very proven fact. When the ACM said the LCA was a Mig-21++ aircraft, he wasn't joking. He was being serious. It was only in 2009 that LCA was elevated to air superiority status and a new Mirage-2000 equivalent ASR was handed over. This is for the LCA Mk2, not LCA Mk1. Indisputable fact.

3) IRST that will provide locks for missiles. This is the most outrageous claim he made. This crosses Zaid Hamid's claim of landing on the moon. Why? Because I know the limitations of IRST.

Ok. Let me explain in such a way that a layman can understand. Take a human eye(which works like IRST but in the visual spectrum). Now tell me what you can determine using the eye. Can you accurately provide the distance between two objects down to the last cm? If there is a bird flying in the sky, can you tell me the exact altitude, angle and speed of the bird with respect to your position? Can you provide consistent vision even if the object is blocked by a wall or a cloud? Now, you see the limitations of IRST. Radar can do all the above, the human eye or IRST cannot.

Now do you find his claim outrageous?

4) UCAV will carry IRST to provide seeker capability to LCA. This crosses beyond Zaid Hamid's random claims. No one in their right mind will even do it. IRST on UCAVs are meant for only one thing. Finding targets on the ground for a good pounding, nothing else.

Hell, I have even forgotten what claims he has made to date. It is beyond funny. So, I am only posting about the claims I remember he made.

5) LCA with low wing loading will beat any aircraft in the sky!

:dude: :facepalm:

This is another point that goes beyond How can an aircraft that is only a Mirage-2000 equivalent beat aircraft which are claimed to be far superior to the Mirage-2000, namely Rafale, EF-2000, F-22, F-35, Su-30, Su-35, PAKFA and Gripen. This is considering I am talking about Mk2 and not Mk1.

Yeah, even F-35 is superior to the LCA. As an example we know that the F-16 has a very high T/W ratio and hence a lot of thrust. During exercises F-35 pilots could accelerate using dry thrust so fast that chase F-16s had to use After Burner in order to keep up. LCA is not expected to have a thrust capability that is even remotely close to the F-16.

So, no chance. The heavier aircraft have far too many lifting surfaces for the LCA to match it let alone exceed it. He is hung up on only one point, that of wing loading forgetting that the FCS limited capabilities of the above aircraft far exceed the non-FCS limited capabilities of LCA. LCA Mk1 won't do beyond 30 or 35deg in AoA without FCS limitations while Rafale can reach 100 deg, 35 deg with FCS limitations. Beyond that the Rafale will have much superior corner speeds and vertical speed capability compared to LCA, even LCA Mk2. LCA in a dog fight with aircraft claimed to be 4.5th gen and above will be eaten alive.

6) Aircraft like MKI can provide targeting coordinates to LCA. While it is true that the MKI can do that with the right upgrade, which it currently does not have, it is also true that doing this will degrade the capability of the MKI. Pilots work as a team with other pilots flying similar aircraft. MKIs, or any other aircraft, fly in formations of 2, 4, 6 and 8. They practice these formations day in and day out with each other. During this, there is no LCA or Rafale involved, these actually come in DACT, which are much rarer. So, all the time spent flying is done with aircraft of a similar type, so all MKIs only. Now in a high threat scenario the squadron leader will need to lead his team with very high precision. If you bring in LCAs, an aircraft he is not familiar with along with the pilot, he is going to have problems deciding where to employ the LCA. Considering LCA's inferior endurance and missile load, it is obvious the MKI commander will use the aircraft under his command to do the needful, that is taking out enemy aircraft.

There is only one place where MKIs work in tandem with LCAs(or Mig-21s) and that's during escort. But the MKIs do not provide targeting information to LCAs during the time. What the MKIs do is play their own game while the LCAs are escorting strike aircraft like Mig-27s and Jags. When the opportunity presents itself the LCAs break formation, merge with enemy aircraft that are fighting MKIs and fire their BVRs using the missiles seeker to obtain radar locks at 10 odd Km. During CI-2004, this is how Mig-21s were used against F-15s.

A direct engagement with an aircraft like F-15 is near certain death for the LCA. Exercises don't count because they mostly come with scripts or inconvenient RoEs that inhibit the advantages of superior aircraft to level the playing field. Always happened.

7) LCA will carry long range AAMs. Well, for starters he does not know the difference between short, medium and long range missiles. While I claimed MKIs will take out AWACs using 300-400Km K-100s, he assumes LCA can also do the same while receiving targeting info from AWACS,( :dude: ), which was countered and killed. Beyond that, as I have repeated many times before, LCA will only carry missiles that it can use based on radar limitations. LCA can detect small aircraft at over 100Km nearing 150Km. Tracking while scan may happen at 70-100Km depending on the aircraft. Radar locks will happen at ranges of 40 or 50Km, which is why the LCA is designed to carry 70Km missile like Astra Mk1 or the 50Km Derby.

8) LCA has low RCS. This statement is a Zaid Hamid equivalent claim. LCA does not have "low" RCS, it merely has "lower" RCS than older aircraft. Give it weapons and RCS will increase by 10 to 100 times. So, a 0.3m[SUP]2[/SUP] figure would become 3m[SUP]2[/SUP] to 30m[SUP]2[/SUP] depending on what's carried, drop tanks, missiles, bombs, pods etc. I am being very modest, in reality the figures would be even larger. For a fighter aircraft, RCS figures with external weapons is anywhere between 10m[SUP]2[/SUP] and 100m[SUP]2[/SUP]. RCS figure for bombers, AWACS etc are 1000m[SUP]2[/SUP].

So, these are the 8 points I remember he claimed and all of them are wrong. So, remove AWACS, IRST, dog fight, long range AAM, MKI for seeking and low RCS as none of these are advantages for LCA.

So, what do we have left? Nothing. That's the point.
 

p2prada

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Its "made in India" !!!! you got it? The Russians are sucking us, the English have done it and hope the French will start soon. I am fully with sakthivel and I understand his anguish and angst!!!
Venkat, it does not matter if it is made in India or not. What matters is whether it fits requirements.

It doesn't matter which country is draining our resources. The user has no hope on DRDO, you have seen what our defence professionals have been writing about DRDO on this very forum.

You know what's happening with Sitara and Deepak, I am sure way more than anybody else in the forum. Even you made fun of Sitara...

LCA is even worse. All specs for Mk1 have been relaxed according to both IAF and ADA. Speed, turn rate, Gs, payload, range and these are only things that we know of publicly. I am pretty sure it is not the same for Sitara. Even retd AM P Rajkumar, who worked on LCA since ever, made fun of ADA when they claimed payload can be increased if fuel is reduced.

How will things work out if even basic requirements are not met?
 

trackwhack

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Not to me. Any wrong information can be corrected. Any wrong information which the person does not want to correct and continues claiming even more outrageous, hopeless claims crosses Zaid Hamid border.



Your thoughts are only based on one simple psychological trait, you want him to be right and me wrong. It does not matter if his claims defy physics or aerodynamic laws. Anything is fine as long as you keep believing his nonsense.

If that is so, then let us get some facts straight.

Well, since you made this personal. I stopped debating with you when I realized your fundamental understanding of physics is .. well .. absent. This concerns the debate around wing loading. Your understanding is the exact opposite of factual, experimentally verified science.

So I dont want him to be right and you to be wrong. You were just plain wrong then and lost all debating credibility. Since then I have been only reading ersakthivels notes and I can clearly see him be several levels ahead of you in practical real world knowledge. His style is not to regurgitate wiki and opinions. It is to base an argument around facts. Hence, I stated what I stated.
 

p2prada

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Wing loading is a silly parameter anyway.

My point remains the same though. High wing loading can sustain a turn better than a low wing loading aircraft. That was my point since always and no amount of bickering will change the laws of physics.

Most people forget that most aircraft have body lift designs, so that is not calculated when calculating wing loading. Add Relaxed stability and FBW, wing loading is an obtuse way of finding out performance.

Wing loading is more relevant to passenger aircraft than fighters.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Well Zaid Hamid finally got attention..

Keep thread to the LCA..
 
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