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ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions
- Thread starter nitesh
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If iam right High altitude test for Kaveri engine is already done it failed in that test, failed engine is with 65kn thrust? please clarify
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It was the K9 version which failed 65KN is dry thrust
ppgj
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something cheer about.hope it passes the tests.even if is used for trainer LCA it would be great.
“We need more thrust without increasing the size of the engine”, says Mohana Rao. “That means getting better technologies from a more experienced foreign partner. We have chosen (French aero-engine major) Snecma. The Defence Ministry has approved the tie-up.”
there was some news few months back about iaf crashing down this partnership???????????
there was some news few months back about iaf crashing down this partnership???????????
Rahul Singh
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If India thinks of creating a self sufficent industry for developing fighter jets, she must invest in the infrastructure first. In kaveri's case i can't undo fear of sabotaging by russians (as they will have control over testing procedures) so that India never dream again to develope critical technologies like fighter jet's engine. Today its a paramount requirement to have a facility in India for conducting all types of test on aero-engine, even it means millions, its ok!
p2prada
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This was about the M-88 core instead of the Kaveri core. That was turned down. Now, we may have gone for the M-88 core afterall, or could be something lesser.
That also means we should put more resources to research better technologies and materials in desi labs.
Mr. MOHAN RAO is acting like a manager of import-export company instead of acting like head of a research facility. If the leader himself has no vision he will sure lead followers to disaster.
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what is the thrust of current engine going to be tested in russia?
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Can't undestand what r u trying to say? Can you elaborate please
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same thrust ratings buddy
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Built for air force, Kaveri engine chosen by navy
The indigenous Kaveri aircraft engine, soon to make its debut flight, lacks the muscle needed by India’s Tejas light combat aircraft, which the engine was designed to power. In its present form, the Kaveri will never power a modern fighter.
But the engine’s technology — developed by the Defence R&D Organisation, over two decades, at a cost of Rs 3000 crore — will not be wasted. The Indian Navy is snapping up the Kaveri for powering its growing fleet of warships.
Business Standard has learnt that the navy has officially informed the Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (the DRDO laboratory that developed the Kaveri) that naval warships will needs 40 Kaveri Marine Gas Turbines (KMGTs) over the next 15 years.
In an important signal of its support, the navy has agreed to fund 25 per cent of the cost of the KMGT project.
GTRE has developed the marine Kaveri by modifying the aero engine with a shaft, through which power can be delivered to a propeller. The navy has extensively tested these engines at Visakhapatnam and found that the marine Kaveri can deliver 12 Megawatts (16,000 Horsepower) of propulsion power.
Typically warships run on regular diesel engines; gas turbines (such as the Kaveri) are added on to provide “boost power”, needed for manoeuvring in battle. Contemporary gas turbines, such as the General Electric LM2500, provide India’s latest 5000-tonne Shivalik class frigates with 22 Mw of boost. The Kaveri’s more modest 12 Mw is sufficient only for smaller warships.
While the marine Kaveri’s basic performance has been established (even the PM has seen a demonstration in Visakhapatnam), the GTRE Director, Dr Mohana Rao, is not yet satisfied with the basic design.
“So far, the KMGT is just a spin-off from the aero version”, Rao told Business Standard in Bangalore. “I want to give the navy an engine with far greater endurance. An aero engine’s life is just 3000 hours; a marine engine’s life should be 30,000 hours. I must physically test the KMGT for at least 15,000 hours.”
GTRE is going ahead with developing 3-4 test engines and beginning trials within three years. The trials will be conducted in a marine environment, which will include high humidity, and prolonged exposure to salt.
“We plan to begin delivery in about 6 years”, says the GTRE Director, “We hope to keep the cost below Rs 25-30 crores, which is considerably cheaper than buying imported gas turbines.”
Earlier this year, the US State Department had stopped General Electric from fitting its LM-2500 turbines on the INS Shivalik, apparently because GE had not obtained proper permissions from the US government.
Other than the 40 KMGTs, the Indian Navy has also issued a letter, on 6 th April 09, laying out a requirement for 42 Gas Turbine Generators, or GTGs. These are de-rated versions of the marine Kaveri, which will be used for generating electrical power on warships. Each GTG generates 1.2 Megawatts of power.
The Indian Navy, an enthusiastic proponent of indigenisation, proposes to replace the diesel generators fitted on older warships with the Kaveri GTG. If it performs well over a period of time, the new-generation warships will also get electrical power from the Kaveri GTG. Currently, only the Rajput and Delhi class of destroyers use gas turbines for power generation.
Built for air force, Kaveri engine chosen by navy
The indigenous Kaveri aircraft engine, soon to make its debut flight, lacks the muscle needed by India’s Tejas light combat aircraft, which the engine was designed to power. In its present form, the Kaveri will never power a modern fighter.
But the engine’s technology — developed by the Defence R&D Organisation, over two decades, at a cost of Rs 3000 crore — will not be wasted. The Indian Navy is snapping up the Kaveri for powering its growing fleet of warships.
Business Standard has learnt that the navy has officially informed the Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (the DRDO laboratory that developed the Kaveri) that naval warships will needs 40 Kaveri Marine Gas Turbines (KMGTs) over the next 15 years.
In an important signal of its support, the navy has agreed to fund 25 per cent of the cost of the KMGT project.
GTRE has developed the marine Kaveri by modifying the aero engine with a shaft, through which power can be delivered to a propeller. The navy has extensively tested these engines at Visakhapatnam and found that the marine Kaveri can deliver 12 Megawatts (16,000 Horsepower) of propulsion power.
Typically warships run on regular diesel engines; gas turbines (such as the Kaveri) are added on to provide “boost power”, needed for manoeuvring in battle. Contemporary gas turbines, such as the General Electric LM2500, provide India’s latest 5000-tonne Shivalik class frigates with 22 Mw of boost. The Kaveri’s more modest 12 Mw is sufficient only for smaller warships.
While the marine Kaveri’s basic performance has been established (even the PM has seen a demonstration in Visakhapatnam), the GTRE Director, Dr Mohana Rao, is not yet satisfied with the basic design.
“So far, the KMGT is just a spin-off from the aero version”, Rao told Business Standard in Bangalore. “I want to give the navy an engine with far greater endurance. An aero engine’s life is just 3000 hours; a marine engine’s life should be 30,000 hours. I must physically test the KMGT for at least 15,000 hours.”
GTRE is going ahead with developing 3-4 test engines and beginning trials within three years. The trials will be conducted in a marine environment, which will include high humidity, and prolonged exposure to salt.
“We plan to begin delivery in about 6 years”, says the GTRE Director, “We hope to keep the cost below Rs 25-30 crores, which is considerably cheaper than buying imported gas turbines.”
Earlier this year, the US State Department had stopped General Electric from fitting its LM-2500 turbines on the INS Shivalik, apparently because GE had not obtained proper permissions from the US government.
Other than the 40 KMGTs, the Indian Navy has also issued a letter, on 6 th April 09, laying out a requirement for 42 Gas Turbine Generators, or GTGs. These are de-rated versions of the marine Kaveri, which will be used for generating electrical power on warships. Each GTG generates 1.2 Megawatts of power.
The Indian Navy, an enthusiastic proponent of indigenisation, proposes to replace the diesel generators fitted on older warships with the Kaveri GTG. If it performs well over a period of time, the new-generation warships will also get electrical power from the Kaveri GTG. Currently, only the Rajput and Delhi class of destroyers use gas turbines for power generation.
Built for air force, Kaveri engine chosen by navy
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Which Engine Will Power The Tejas?
Late next month, a critical competition process kicks off for the selection of an alternate power source for the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas). After pre-bid feasibility studies that were conducted through much of 2008, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) -- the umbrella body of agencies involved in the LCA's development -- sent out Requests for Proposal (RfP) to Ohio-based GE Aviation for the F-414-400 and Hallbergmoos (Germany) based Eurojet Turbo GmbH for the EJ200. Both companies are required to submit their technical proposals by October 12. Technical evaluations of the engines will be complete by the end of the year, though these are planned to be truncated since a lot of technical work has been pre-completed during the feasibility studies. The technical evaluation will be followed by a full schedule of trials. As you might remember, it was the Defence Ministry's Aeronautics R&D Board Propulsion Panel, headed by ADA Project Director (Propulsion Systems) Dr KVL Rao, which recommended in July last year that the LCA programme rapidly begin a process to choose between the two mentioned engines to power upto 100 fighters (with an option to power 60 more). It was after his recommendations were submitted to the ADA that feasibility studies were begun with both GE and Eurojet for their respective turbofans.
Modifications are a non-issue as of now, with both GE and Eurojet declaring that their engines can fit in the LCA's fuselage. A limited number of engines will be bought direct from the winning contender, while the rest will be license-built at HAL's engine factory in Koraput, Orissa. With all options exercised, the deal could be worth close to $600-million.
The obvious tie-in with the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition is the lifeblood of the Tejas new engine bid. While the EJ200 powers the Eurofighter Typhoon, the F404 powers Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet as well as the JAS-39 Gripen IN.
According to IAF sources embedded with ADA, on paper, both engines "just about" meet what the air force wants and needs from the LCA in terms of thrust. Having established that, what are the possible criteria of selection, if one were to put aside political and/or other considerations?
Point 1, virtually everyone I've spoken to at the ADA and air force believe that the engine that meets the new thrust compliance bar and fits the Tejas with the least amount of engineering, fabrication or modification will be selected. Both engines say they meet the maximum thrust requirements demanded by the IAF. The American F-414-400 is physically similar, if not identical, to the F-404 that currently powers the Tejas, and is, remember, a technological derivative of the same. Therefore, it stands to reason that ADA believes the people at GE when they say the F-414 is a spot-on fit without any tinkering. Similarly, based on information gleaned from the feasibility study, Eurojet boss Hartmut Tenter told Flightglobal earlier this year that "the EJ200 fits perfectly into the same hole." Ok.
Point 2, weight issues, which won't be taken, um, lightly. The F-414-400, at 1,109-kgs is approximately 120-kgs heavier than the EJ200.
Point 3, the F-414-400 has a stated maximum thrust of 98kN, more than the EJ200's 90kN, even though both technically meet the IAF's requirement for a 90kN turbofan. Will the extra thrust that the American engine apparently offers be enough reason to ignore the 120-kgs of additional weight that it brings to the competition? Maybe.
Point 4, the folks at ADA have had a great amount of experience working with GE on the LCA programme, so the American firm is well-versed with the rough and tumble of the IAF's qualitative requirements. Working with a firm that is already "in the picture" about your requirements is an intangible consideration, but a consideration nevertheless.
Point 4, if the IAF's mantra for lowering inventory type is taken even a bit seriously, then the outcome of this competition could bring a great amount of influence to bear on the far more lucrative MMRCA competition. This alone could give the government a huge amount of leverage either way, though it could also slow things down significantly to the detriment of the LCA programme.
The selection process begins next month. Stay tuned.
Late next month, a critical competition process kicks off for the selection of an alternate power source for the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas). After pre-bid feasibility studies that were conducted through much of 2008, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) -- the umbrella body of agencies involved in the LCA's development -- sent out Requests for Proposal (RfP) to Ohio-based GE Aviation for the F-414-400 and Hallbergmoos (Germany) based Eurojet Turbo GmbH for the EJ200. Both companies are required to submit their technical proposals by October 12. Technical evaluations of the engines will be complete by the end of the year, though these are planned to be truncated since a lot of technical work has been pre-completed during the feasibility studies. The technical evaluation will be followed by a full schedule of trials. As you might remember, it was the Defence Ministry's Aeronautics R&D Board Propulsion Panel, headed by ADA Project Director (Propulsion Systems) Dr KVL Rao, which recommended in July last year that the LCA programme rapidly begin a process to choose between the two mentioned engines to power upto 100 fighters (with an option to power 60 more). It was after his recommendations were submitted to the ADA that feasibility studies were begun with both GE and Eurojet for their respective turbofans.
Modifications are a non-issue as of now, with both GE and Eurojet declaring that their engines can fit in the LCA's fuselage. A limited number of engines will be bought direct from the winning contender, while the rest will be license-built at HAL's engine factory in Koraput, Orissa. With all options exercised, the deal could be worth close to $600-million.
The obvious tie-in with the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition is the lifeblood of the Tejas new engine bid. While the EJ200 powers the Eurofighter Typhoon, the F404 powers Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet as well as the JAS-39 Gripen IN.
According to IAF sources embedded with ADA, on paper, both engines "just about" meet what the air force wants and needs from the LCA in terms of thrust. Having established that, what are the possible criteria of selection, if one were to put aside political and/or other considerations?
Point 1, virtually everyone I've spoken to at the ADA and air force believe that the engine that meets the new thrust compliance bar and fits the Tejas with the least amount of engineering, fabrication or modification will be selected. Both engines say they meet the maximum thrust requirements demanded by the IAF. The American F-414-400 is physically similar, if not identical, to the F-404 that currently powers the Tejas, and is, remember, a technological derivative of the same. Therefore, it stands to reason that ADA believes the people at GE when they say the F-414 is a spot-on fit without any tinkering. Similarly, based on information gleaned from the feasibility study, Eurojet boss Hartmut Tenter told Flightglobal earlier this year that "the EJ200 fits perfectly into the same hole." Ok.
Point 2, weight issues, which won't be taken, um, lightly. The F-414-400, at 1,109-kgs is approximately 120-kgs heavier than the EJ200.
Point 3, the F-414-400 has a stated maximum thrust of 98kN, more than the EJ200's 90kN, even though both technically meet the IAF's requirement for a 90kN turbofan. Will the extra thrust that the American engine apparently offers be enough reason to ignore the 120-kgs of additional weight that it brings to the competition? Maybe.
Point 4, the folks at ADA have had a great amount of experience working with GE on the LCA programme, so the American firm is well-versed with the rough and tumble of the IAF's qualitative requirements. Working with a firm that is already "in the picture" about your requirements is an intangible consideration, but a consideration nevertheless.
Point 4, if the IAF's mantra for lowering inventory type is taken even a bit seriously, then the outcome of this competition could bring a great amount of influence to bear on the far more lucrative MMRCA competition. This alone could give the government a huge amount of leverage either way, though it could also slow things down significantly to the detriment of the LCA programme.
The selection process begins next month. Stay tuned.
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September Test flights
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]LCA-Tejas has completed 1170 Test Flights successfully. (04-Sep-09).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]LCA-Tejas has completed 1171 Test Flights successfully. (08-Sep-09).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]LCA-Tejas has completed 1172 Test Flights successfully. (09-Sep-09).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]LCA-Tejas has completed 1173 Test Flights successfully. (11-Sep-09).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1] LCA has completed 1173 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-218,PV2-128,PV3-153,LSP1-54,LSP2-82). [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1] 218[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 11th Sep 09[/SIZE][/FONT]
Flight Test News
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]LCA-Tejas has completed 1170 Test Flights successfully. (04-Sep-09).[/SIZE][/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]
[*] LCA has completed 1170 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-216,PV2-128,PV3-152,LSP1-54,LSP2-82).[/SIZE][/FONT] - [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1] 216[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 04th Sep 09.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]LCA-Tejas has completed 1171 Test Flights successfully. (08-Sep-09).[/SIZE][/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]
[*] LCA has completed 1171 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-217,PV2-128,PV3-152,LSP1-54,LSP2-82).[/SIZE][/FONT] - [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1] 217[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 08th Sep 09.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]LCA-Tejas has completed 1172 Test Flights successfully. (09-Sep-09).[/SIZE][/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]
[*] LCA has completed 1172 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-217,PV2-128,PV3-153,LSP1-54,LSP2-82).[/SIZE][/FONT] - [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1] 153rd flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 09th Sep 09.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]LCA-Tejas has completed 1173 Test Flights successfully. (11-Sep-09).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1] LCA has completed 1173 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-218,PV2-128,PV3-153,LSP1-54,LSP2-82). [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1] 218[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 11th Sep 09[/SIZE][/FONT]
Flight Test News
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not on number of flights but depends on combination of factors like flight hours, number of test points validated etc.
indian_blues
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So kaveri out of Tejas equation? So India won't have it's own indigenous engine even in future.
as someone said atleast we should try kaveri to power jet trainers.
as someone said atleast we should try kaveri to power jet trainers.
ppgj
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IB, it is not out. considering the time to master it they are opting for a ready engine so IAF gets the numbers to replace its falling squadron strength. while GTRE will continue with assistance from some foreign source. may be lca mark 2 at some point in future will get kaveri if it proves itself.
Rahul Singh
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Various reports suggest that IAF has virtually ruled out Kaveri for LCA. However if GTRE manages to pull out 90KN re-heated thrust then it can well become an option for MCA. In addition to it, scaled down turbofan for UAVs and cruise missiles can also be developed from Kaveri's core. Future is bright but depends on GOI and IAF views.
shankarosky
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kaveri will have other applications as mentioned -lca most likely with 414
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