ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[ppgj]

The Growlers used have 2 engines and the jammers used will need atleast 50KW for power. The LCA is single engined and can generate only about 15KW of power as compared to 75KW on the Growler. The LCA also has a very small range and payload which are also a major drawback.

The MKI can be turned into a Growler. But, I doubt the IAF or IN may invest in such a venture. We may go for a Gulfstream or Embraer platform for EW attack, maybe in the future. Our avionics R&D is not as mature as required.

You can bet we will have an EW version of the PAKFA or FGFA in the future.

Edit: AWACS are not capable of electronic Attack. They don't carry any EW equipment as of now except for ESM(support measures like protection from infrared missiles) and SIGINT(signal intelligence).

WIKI says the new version of AN/ALQ-99 needs 6.8kw.
by foregoing weapons payload can't we increase the range?meaning it only acts as ew aircraft.
i wish mki turns into a growler.

 

[p2prada]

WIKI says the new version of AN/ALQ-99 needs 6.8kw.
by foregoing weapons payload can't we increase the range?meaning it only acts as ew aircraft.
i wish mki turns into a growler.

Multiply by 5, the number of jammers carried. And then there is the communication jammer, interference cancellation device etc. The rest is used by the radar and other avionics.

We cannot use the LCA for nothing but the basic fighter operations like Point defence, recce, CAP and CAS. EW can only be handled by 2 engine aircraft or a larger aircraft. You will not see the F-16 doing EW.

 

[raider]

LCA has better flight control laws compaired to JF-17, LCA uses quadruplex flght control laws i.e. for both pitch and yaw axis while the JF-17 use flight control law for yaw axis.
JF-17 is said to have sensor fusion(data fusion) a capability. Any such capability in Tejas is currently unknown.
JF-17 uses C++ as the programming language so that they could use commercially aviable software while LCA uses a subset of Ada language. Ada is used as the programming language for aerospace. application.
Landing gear for LCA was indiginously developed. After doing so india became the sixth country to achieved the technology.
Link
Mayavi EW suite is jointly developed by india and isreal. Once developed Mayavi would be the standard EW Suite for InAF and IsAF. Isreal would use it in their F-35 and india will use it in LCA, MCA, FGFA(citation needed). I expect it to be Mayavi EW suite to be better compaired to that of JF-17.
Not much information is about multi-mode radar and KLJ-10 radar so i would not comment on them.
Many technologies for LCA are developed inhouse thus india benifited from them but same can't said for Pakistan in case JF-17.

The JF-17 uses the same databus as the USAF fighter jets so how is it that C++ language is used? The EW suit for the JF-17 is pretty advanced and has been incorporated into the new J-10. Im not well aware of the joint israel-india developed suit but the israelis are pretty good in this area so I wont underestimate it.

Lastly pakistan has and will gain alot from the JF-17 project as it will provide for as a base for different weapon projects and maybe even future fighter projects if upgraded block version are developed in the future (which will likely occur). I doubt the chinese would be interested in developing future block versions since their to busy with the J-10 and J-xx projects so such a project would be fully taken up by pakistan

 

[raider]

Multiply by 5, the number of jammers carried. And then there is the communication jammer, interference cancellation device etc. The rest is used by the radar and other avionics.

We cannot use the LCA for nothing but the basic fighter operations like Point defence, recce, CAP and CAS. EW can only be handled by 2 engine aircraft or a larger aircraft. You will not see the F-16 doing EW.

What you are taking about are EW missions which any fighter is fully capable of if it carrys a ECM pod.

 

[nitesh]

The JF-17 uses the same databus as the USAF fighter jets so how is it that C++ language is used? The EW suit for the JF-17 is pretty advanced and has been incorporated into the new J-10. Im not well aware of the joint israel-india developed suit but the israelis are pretty good in this area so I wont underestimate it.

Lastly pakistan has and will gain alot from the JF-17 project as it will provide for as a base for different weapon projects and maybe even future fighter projects if upgraded block version are developed in the future (which will likely occur). I doubt the chinese would be interested in developing future block versions since their to busy with the J-10 and J-xx projects so such a project would be fully taken up by pakistan

Now this is hilarious then why you are buying two different AWACS?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

The JF-17 uses the same databus as the USAF fighter jets so how is it that C++ language is used?

The hardware is a standard used by Nato, Rs-434 and Mil are standard use to develop hardware, even Raptor follow this standard. The fact that the operating system(O.S.) used must be able to ensure capability between hardware and software, so which O.S. you use matters. For this reason open source operating system are used.
I advice you to read the wiki article on Tejas and JF-17 carefully. Today most of the operating systems are written in Cpp(C++) and almost all O.S. can understand executiables written in cpp. Several patches or services can be brought of shelf from european market which can enable your O.S. to follow the Nato standards. Several of the shelf softwares are aviable in the international market written in cpp to handle aircraft subroutines. Their is a spanish software company which makes flight control software in cpp and sells it to other people. Airbus is one of their principle customer.

The EW suit for the JF-17 is pretty advanced and has been incorporated into the new J-10. Im not well aware of the joint israel-india developed suit but the israelis are pretty good in this area so I wont underestimate it.

I would suggest you to read this wiki article about Tejas. For a EW suite the proccessing power of your EW suite and the threat library i.e. the software written on how to detect and deal with the threat are most important. In both this field(microprocessors and software) india is very advanced.

Lastly pakistan has and will gain alot from the JF-17 project as it will provide for as a base for different weapon projects and maybe even future fighter projects if upgraded block version are developed in the future (which will likely occur). I doubt the chinese would be interested in developing future block versions since their to busy with the J-10 and J-xx projects so such a project would be fully taken up by pakistan

No offence just tell me what has pakistan contributed in JF-17. I have not even come across one thing that pakistan has contributed in the project. Currently pakistans areospace industry is 0, believe it or not this is a fact. By itself it won't be able to upgrade JF-17.

 

[Sridhar]

Guys Let us not make it LCA vs JF-17 thread.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Now this is hilarious then why you are buying two different AWACS?

Man, he is right. JF-17 uses Nato standard only because of this they can use Saab AWACS and because it is built by Chinese it also follows chinese standard enabling it to cooperate with Chinese AWACS.

 

[nitesh]

Man, he is right. JF-17 uses Nato standard only because of this they can use Saab AWACS and because it is built by Chinese it also follows chinese standard enabling it to cooperate with Chinese AWACS.

As far as I have read, SAAB will be taking care of western origin fighters (F 16 and Mirages) and Chinese origin fighters (JF 17 and others) will use the Chinese version. Well this is interesting then what exactly the chinese AEW planes will be doing if they are not controlling the JF 17

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Guys Let us not make it LCA vs JF-17 thread.

Your wish is my command.

 

[p2prada]

What you are taking about are EW missions which any fighter is fully capable of if it carrys a ECM pod.

Not in the same league as a Growler.........

USAF F-15s adn F-16s do carry jammer pods. But, then USAF still relies on USN for Electronic Attack. Adding a jammer pod only helps the fighter and a few others in the viscinity and not affect an entire battlespace like the Growler does.

 

[redpearl75]

These are the specifications given on Wikipedia about LCA Tejas:

General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,500 kg (14,100 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,500 kg (20,700 lb (in fighter configuration))
Max takeoff weight: 16,000 kg (27,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
Dry thrust: 53.9 kN (11,250 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN (19,100 lbf)
Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters
External fuel capacity: 5×800 liter tanks or 3×1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.0 (2,376+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
Range: 3000 km (1,840 mi (without refueling))
Service ceiling: 15,950+ m (54,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.02
g limits : +8.5 g / 9g
Armament


Guns: 1× mounted 23 mm twin-barrel GSh-23 cannon with 220 rounds of ammunition.
Hardpoints: 8 total: 1× beneath the port-side intake trunk, 6× under-wing, and 1× under-fuselage with a capacity of >4000 kg external fuel and ordnance.

Are these the latest and correct info?

My concern is the MTOW and The Max Speed.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

As far as I have read, SAAB will be taking care of western origin fighters (F 16 and Mirages) and Chinese origin fighters (JF 17 and others) will use the Chinese version. Well this is interesting then what exactly the chinese AEW planes will be doing if they are not controlling the JF 17

Dude you are not getting the point Mil-Std are not hardware specific but are software specific. Yes certain points like hardware type, data transmission rate and quality but almost 90% of standard is how software is to built. These standardr tell how the software must handle/treat the data i.e. how the bits will be interpreted as per the arrival. This allow us to have vender interopratibility.
For data links the software standard is more important. Several software are aviable of the shelf from international vendors to enable your operating system follow such standards. Getting access to standarized hardware is also not difficult nowdays.

 

[nitesh]

Dude you are not getting the point Mil-Std are not hardware specific but are software specific. Yes certain points like hardware type, data transmission rate and quality but almost 90% of standard is how software is to built. These standardr tell how the software must handle/treat the data i.e. how the bits will be interpreted as per the arrival. This allow us to have vender interopratibility.
For data links the software standard is more important. Several software are aviable of the shelf from international vendors to enable your operating system follow such standards. Getting access to standarized hardware is also not difficult nowdays.

Dude, are you telling me that US (NATO) data links are so publically avilable to weapons makers that any other country can just copy it and make it working to any plane without the OEM permission? The max that can be done is Pakistan paying to SAAB for customising the plane so that it can communicate with a specific data link (read Chinese). Help me by giving me some source where it mentions that JF 17 will be data linked with the SAAB not the Chinese AEW aircrafts (I mean data linked not capable of giving only the voice commands).
(Check the IAF exercises they have taken only voice commands from US AWACS they were not data linked to get battle picture)

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Dude, are you telling me that US (NATO) data links are so publically avilable to weapons makers that any other country can just copy it and make it working to any plane without the OEM permission? The max that can be done is Pakistan paying to SAAB for customising the plane so that it can communicate with a specific data link (read Chinese). Help me by giving me some source where it mentions that JF 17 will be data linked with the SAAB not the Chinese AEW aircrafts (I mean data linked not capable of giving only the voice commands).
(Check the IAF exercises they have taken only voice commands from US AWACS they were not data linked to get battle picture)

No, you again got me wrong. I never said to any specific data link, I am just talking about the standard. Every Nato data link is built with regard to specific standard, then the vender adds goodies or customizes it. He may use better processor or a better algorithm. He may even improve the hardware to enable faster and secure communication. This all are add-on that make a data link superior to others. However Nato every data link is made with regards to same standard, this is becouse to allow interoperatibility between venders.

 

[nitesh]

No, you again got me wrong. I never said to any specific data link, I am just talking about the standard. Every Nato data link is built with regard to specific standard, then the vender adds goodies or customizes it. He may use better processor or a better algorithm. He may even improve the hardware to enable faster and secure communication. This all are add-on that make a data link superior to others. However Nato every data link is made with regards to same standard, this is becouse to allow interoperatibility between venders.

DS the whole discussion is getting in to other dimensions, it is not about standard a data link is standerdized for use in a particular force and every weapon system has that so that they can get a seamless battle space picture. If everything is so easily customizable in military then the world will be different?. Well, just see post 284 and please provide a source which specifically mentions that JF-17 follows the NATO standard data link (Please be specific for data link as any AWACS can give voice command to any plane)

 

[p2prada]

JF-17 does follow the NATO MIL STD 1553 data bus. But, this is the internal wiring of the components and not a data link to connect to other nodes. Right now, Pak does not have the ability to create their own secure datalink. They may ask for Chinese help. But, Sweden will not allow any Chinese involvement on the Erieye.

Even our datalink has been out sourced to IAI. We will get something similar to Link22.

 

[redpearl75]

This is what i could get for our LCA info:

"The digital FBW system of the Tejas employs a powerful digital flight control computer (DFCC) comprising four computing channels, each with its own independent power supply and all housed in a single LRU. The DFCC receives signals from a variety of sensors and pilot control stick inputs, and processes these through the appropriate channels to excite and control the elevons, rudder and leading edge slat hydraulic actuators. The DFCC channels are built around 32-bit microprocessors and use a subset of the Ada language for software implementation. The computer interfaces with pilot display elements like the MFDs through MIL-STD-1553B multiplex avionics data buses and RS-422 serial links."

And this is for JF 17:

Avionics equipping the JF-17 prototypes used the Motorola 88000 microprocessor, which can be changed to other microprocessors of the same class. The redesigned PT-04 prototype JF-17

"The communication systems comprise two VHF/UHF radios, one of them having capacity for data linking. The data link can be used to exchange data with ground control centres, AWACS/AEW aircraft and other combat aircraft also equipped with compatible data links. The ability to data link with other "nodes" such as aircraft and ground stations allows JF-17 to become part of a network, improving the situational awareness of the pilot as well as other entities in the network (see network-centric warfare).

The JF-17 has a defensive aids system (DAS) made up of various integrated sub-systems. A radar warning receiver (RWR) gives data such as direction and proximity of enemy radars to the pilot and electronic warfare (EW) suite, housed in a fairing at the tip of the tail fin for greater coverage, that interferes with enemy radars. The EW suite is also linked to a missile approach warning (MAW) system to help it defend against radar-guided missiles. The MAW system uses several optical sensors mounted on the airframe (two of which can be seen at the base of the vertical stabiliser) that detect the rocket motors of missiles and gives 360 degree coverage.[6] Data collected by the MAW system, such as direction of inbound missiles and the time to impact (TTI), is also shown on the cockpit displays and HUD to warn the pilot. A counter-measures dispensing system releases decoy flares and chaff to help the aircraft evade enemy radars and missiles trying to track and destroy the aircraft. The DAS systems will also be enhanced by integration of a self-protection radar jamming pod which will be carried externally on one of the aircraft's hardpoints.

JF-17 being delivered to the Pakistan Air Force are currently equipped with the NRIET KLJ-7 radar,[44][45][46] a smaller variant of the KLJ-10 pulse-doppler multi-mode radar developed by China's Nanjing Research Institute of Electronic Technology (NRIET). Its multiple modes mean that it can engage targets in the air, on the ground or out at sea. Using the track-while-scan (TWS) mode, enemy aircraft can be engaged at beyond visual range (BVR) while the radar continues scanning for new threats. Close-in aerial combat and ground surveillance modes are also available.

This radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.[45] The detection range for targets with a radar-cross section of up to 3 m2 is stated to be 120 km, or 50 km in look-down mode, while surface sea targets can be detected at up to 135 km. Target data is displayed on the multi-function display screens in the cockpit.

It is known that a helmet-mounted sights/display (HMS/D) system will be installed on the JF-17, although the exact type is yet to be confirmed. This system assists in targeting enemy aircraft by projecting targeting information onto the pilot's visor and tracking the movements of his head/eyes. Also to be integrated is a FLIR (Forward Looking Infra-Red) pod for low-level navigation in low visibility and IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system for passive monitoring and targeting of enemy aircraft.

A day/night laser designator targeting pod will be integrated with the aircraft's avionics and carried externally on one of the hardpoints for guiding laser-guided munitions. An extra hardpoint may be added under the starboard air intake, opposite the cannon, for mounting such pods. No specific targeting pod has been selected, but a Chinese system such as the FILAT (Forward-looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting) pod may be integrated if a suitable Western system is not available. To reduce costs associated with buying large numbers of targeting pods, during strike missions the aircraft's tactical data-link will be used to transmit targeting data to other aircraft not equipped with targeting pods."

 

[Sridhar]

LCA’s induction into IAF in 2012: M M Palam Raju

BY TI
The Light Combat Aircraft will be inducted into the Indian Air Force in 2012 after operational clearance in 2010-11, Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju said here today.
An agreement with Russia for next generation aircraft and transport aircraft was being worked out. Raju, however, did not give any timeframe and details. Asked about the Arunachal issue with China,Raju said”We will not underplay any perception of threat as a nation we are ready to meet any eventuality.”He also said in the perspective of increasing border trade, the problem with China has become the second largest trade partner of India.


LCA’s induction into IAF in 2012: M M Palam Raju IDRW.ORG

 

[Sridhar]

LCA’s induction into IAF in 2012: M M Palam Raju

BY TI
The Light Combat Aircraft will be inducted into the Indian Air Force in 2012 after operational clearance in 2010-11, Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju said here today.
An agreement with Russia for next generation aircraft and transport aircraft was being worked out. Raju, however, did not give any timeframe and details. Asked about the Arunachal issue with China,Raju said”We will not underplay any perception of threat as a nation we are ready to meet any eventuality.”He also said in the perspective of increasing border trade, the problem with China has become the second largest trade partner of India.


LCA’s induction into IAF in 2012: M M Palam Raju IDRW.ORG