ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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p2prada

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Probably because it has no rear horizontal-stabilizers / horizontal tail for pitch control (again, because of its wing design).
Most modern delta aircraft have no horizontal stabilizers, thus are called tailless deltas.

The centre of gravity is behind the aerodynamic center which makes the aircraft highly unstable in the pitch axis which is a criteria for delta aircraft right from Rafale to LCA.

The MKI and Mig-21 are tailed deltas in that respect.

I get this nasty feeling that if they had to go for a cropped delta design, they would've encountered issues with the wing-loading and positioning of the wings on the fuselage, which would've led to design / aspect ratio / airflow problems, which would've led to further unacceptable delays. So, to avoid that, they stuck with the double-delta and no tailplane. Now I'm wondering, if a chine or ventral fins could've solved that problem.
Not just that. Cropping the delta on the LCA will mean making the wings even stronger so it can hold wing tip pylons. That will increase weight and would mean MASSIVE changes in the overall structure of the plane. Chine or ventral fins, even LERX cannot help circumvent the issue of tip drag due to increased weight.

Canards could've been used as an alternative (to a tailplane), but were not included, I think, for the reasons mentioned above.
My thoughts the same. Canards would have wasted more time and money. Hope they get things right with AMCA. Basic aerodynamic issues should not be a problem by then.

Fact is though, that despite having canard-equipped Mirage 4000's available, the French AF still went for the Mirage-2000 (course, I'm discounting other reasons here).
It did not compare in capability to the F-15 type of aircraft. Funding was an issue as well. They are better off with Rafale. :)

LCA and J-10 are the only newly introduced compound delta fighters left in the world, which IMHO is disappointing for both air forces.
 

ajay_ijn

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Subramanyam argues that this money has not just developed the Tejas, but also India's ability to build serious fighters. "Consider the aerospace infrastructure that we have built across the country, in key DRDO laboratories, defence PSUs, private industry, academic institutions, and test facilities like the National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC). This has bridged a technology and infrastructure gap of two-three generations," he says.
Its great that LCA Project had led to india having so many advanced facilities.
But i really hope they don't have to mention this again in any of future projects, while defending criticisms due to any glitches or delays. Hopefully present infrastructure and expertise will help India to develop AMCA far more successfully than how LCA project went.
 
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gogbot

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One of our media's greatest lies crushed.

LCA TEJAS PROJECT FUNDING DETAILS REVEALED

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/whensword-arm-is-worth-it/426073

When a sword arm is worth it
Ajai Shukla / Bangalore February 22, 2011, 0:49 IST



The spotlight is swinging on to the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). It has been cleared for induction into the Indian Air Force, construction has begun on two squadrons (40 aircraft) and the IAF is picking 40 per cent of the tab for developing a more powerful Tejas Mark II.

Now its designers are hitting out at critics who charge the programme has greatly overshot its budget.

P S Subramanyam, head of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which spearheads the Tejas programme, has given Business Standard detailed financial figures to argue the development cost has remained within budget. ADA also notes the Tejas is significantly cheaper than any comparable fighter.[/B]

'No overshoot'

Slamming some recent media reports that the Tejas was enormously over budget, Subramanyam reveals just Rs 6,051 crore has been spent so far on the fighter, that performed aerobatics at the Aero India show in Bangalore this month. Another Rs 746 crore (of the sanctioned Rs 3,650 crore) has been spent on the naval Tejas, which will fly from the Indian Navy's future aircraft carriers.

ADA has provided a detailed cost breakdown. The LCA project began in 1983 (the name Tejas only came later), with a preliminary allocation of Rs 560 crore for 'feasibility studies and project definition'. Subramanyam complains that accusations of cost overruns stem from the misperception that Rs 560 crore was the entire budget for developing the Tejas. In fact, this was merely for defining the project and creating the infrastructure needed for designing, building, testing and certifying a fighter.

Only after a decade of infrastructure building did the design work start, when the ministry of defence (MoD) sanctioned Rs 2,188 crore in 1993 (which included the initial Rs 560 crore). This allocation was to fund the building of two 'technology demonstrator' Tejas fighters.

"Within this budget, we flew the Tejas in 2001, and even built two extra Tejas prototypes," says Subramanyam. "And, that was without any adjustment for inflation or foreign exchange appreciation, though the dollar shot up from Rs 26 to Rs 47 during that period. Our forex component of Rs 873 crore should have been adjusted to Rs 1,642 crore."

Buoyed by the successful test flight in 2001, the MoD allocated ADA Rs 3,302 crore in November 2001, for Phase-II of the programme. This was to fund a production line and the building and flight-testing of 8 'limited series production' fighters. Phase-II will run till 2012, when the Tejas obtains final operational clearance (FOC) for induction into the IAF as a frontline fighter.

In 2009, with the Tejas flight-testing running slow, ADA obtained an additional Rs 2,475 crore from the government for Phase-II. Subramanyam argues this is not a cost overrun. "The MoD's allocation of 2001 contained no protection from inflation. If you roll back our annual expenditure to the base year of 2001, we remained within budget," says the ADA chief.

The IAF is now confident that its Tejas Mk-I will obtain FOC in 2012, within the sanctioned Rs 7,965 crore (Rs 2,188 + Rs 3,302 + Rs 2,475) crore. What remains is to integrate a long-range missile; to enable mid-air refuelling; and to enable the Tejas to fly as slow as 200 kmph.


What we got
Subramanyam argues that this money has not just developed the Tejas, but also India's ability to build serious fighters. "Consider the aerospace infrastructure that we have built across the country, in key DRDO laboratories, defence PSUs, private industry, academic institutions, and test facilities like the National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC). This has bridged a technology and infrastructure gap of two-three generations," he says.



Meanwhile, the naval Tejas will fly within weeks. Significantly different from the IAF version, the naval Tejas must get airborne within 195 metres (the length of an aircraft carrier deck) and withstand the cruel impact of repeated deck landings, in which it must be slammed down precisely where the deck begins. Of the Rs 1,729 crore allocated for the naval Tejas, ADA has spent Rs 746 crore so far.

Encouraged by the success of Tejas Mk-I, the MoD allocated Rs 2,432 crore in 2009 for making the IAF's fighter even better: developing a Tejas Mk-II, with a newer, beefier, GE-414 engine. Simultaneously, Rs 1,921 crore was sanctioned for the Naval Tejas Mk-II. While the Navy funded 40 per cent of its fighter from the start, the IAF is a new convert, matching the Navy in funding the Tejas Mk-II.

"By 2012, the total development cost for an IAF and a naval Tejas — including a single-seat fighter and a twin-seat trainer variant for each — will be Rs 9,690 crore. Another Rs 4,353 crore will be spent on the Tejas Mark-II, bringing the total cost to Rs 14,047 crore," says Subramanyam.

The Gripen, a comparable if somewhat more advanced fighter, which Sweden developed during this period, cost US $13.5 billion for 204 fighters, assuming complete tax exemption. A similar number of Tejas fighters entering IAF and Navy service would — provided that HAL holds the Tejas manufacturing price at its current estimate of Rs 180 crore per fighter — have cost India US $11.28 billion.

Given that Sweden entered the Gripen programme with a mature aerospace industry (coming off the successful Viggen programme), India will have built the Tejas, as also an entire aerospace design and manufacturing eco-system, for 17 per cent less money than Sweden paid for the Gripen.
#Nitesh's post has been edited by me. to try and improve readablity
 
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Rage

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Most modern delta aircraft have no horizontal stabilizers, thus are called tailless deltas.

The centre of gravity is behind the aerodynamic center which makes the aircraft highly unstable in the pitch axis which is a criteria for delta aircraft right from Rafale to LCA.

The MKI and Mig-21 are tailed deltas in that respect.
Correct. I'm trying to make the inverse point, that a cropped delta would either require the introduction of canards or a tailplane for longitudinal stability.

Speaking of canards, I'm curious as to what the verdict on canards subjecting ailerons on wings to widely varying turbulence at high angles of attack, is. That may have been a consideration in not including canards on the Tejas, for considerations of deep-stall.


Not just that. Cropping the delta on the LCA will mean making the wings even stronger so it can hold wing tip pylons. That will increase weight and would mean MASSIVE changes in the overall structure of the plane. Chine or ventral fins, even LERX cannot help circumvent the issue of tip drag due to increased weight.
I don't know, I thought ventral fins were supposed to reduce induced drag-

"While the primary purpose of the ventral fins is to structurally connect the duct to the forward fuselage, they double as lateral lifting surfaces. They assist the duct during knife-edge flight and move the lateral center of pressure forward, meaning that very little rudder will be required to trim knife-edge flight. The airfoil sections and planform of these surfaces are driven mainly by drag-reduction and structural considerations, along with their interaction with the induced airflow during high angle of attack flight."

http://www.esotec.org/hbird/HTML/Aero.html#VFinAero

Now a thought recently crossed my mind: that of using 'moustaches' as small, high aspect-ratio foreplanes or as retractable close-coupled canards at high speeds, to reduce drag and enhance AoA stability.


It did not compare in capability to the F-15 type of aircraft. Funding was an issue as well. They are better off with Rafale. :)
That's true. Interestingly, on the side, I heard India was allegedly interested in buying the plane for its air superiority fighter in 2005, too.


LCA and J-10 are the only newly introduced compound delta fighters left in the world, which IMHO is disappointing for both air forces.
I suppose it has to do with their different roles, the J-10, with its canard-delta design, with greater cruise stability and higher angle-of-attack at high speeds, is configured for its multi-role requirement; while, the LCA with its tailless compound delta and high A-o-A stability, is optimized for high speeds, which is suited for its role as an interceptor.
 

black eagle

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Very informative... A presentation on LCA-NAVY flight testing

 
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mattster

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I have a question for the readers here.

1) How many aircraft is HAL going produce for the IAF per year.

2) Does HAL have any new production facilities to produce these planes in assembly line fashion or are they going they going to be produced in one-off prototype scale.
 

adyonfire4

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LCA Tejas Past,Present & Future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas
Present Form​
The good part
Indigenous Stuff-
Well the good part about this is FP is that it is around 60% indigenous.No doubt it has some teething problems at the moment but one thing is for sure it will turn out to be a real good FP in the coming years.
Infrastructure-
It marks that India has now got the infrastructure not only for manufacturing FP but also testing it in the weapons integration phase like firing an Air-To-Air Missile like R-73, this kind of infrastructure development is impossible when you induct Foreign FP,especially the testing of Laser Pods,Video and Audio telemetry equipments usage and of course the Drop Tank Lattison Tests.
FBW System-
Yes, also the FBW System of the FP is a tough thing to master which has become a success.
Aerodynamics-
The aerodynamics of the FP are near perfect although it needs a more powerful engine still but the Thrust To Weight Ratio has still been maintained at 0.91 which is enough for combat manuveurs to be performed.
Use of Foreign Components-
Also FP has foreign components it only improves the capability in the present form which can be replaced in the coming time with ease.
The Bad Part
Over Confidence-
Dier over confidence in the DRDO that they could develop a 4.5 Gen FP all on there own within a span of 10 Years.
Wrong Decision Making-
Wrong Decision Making has caused Major amount of problems for the Indigineous Fighter Aircraft Development Program.
 
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joe81

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Rafael to Equip LCA with Derby Missile

According to rumors the Indian Air Force and the Rafael Advanced Defense System (RADS) are going to sign a major contract in March 2011. According to officials, the contract will be focused on equipping India's Tejas fighter with the modern Derby missiles, developed by RADS. The Derby air-to-air missile will be equipped on at least 200 Tejas jets.

This is not the first time in which the IAF has signed a contract with Rafael. RADS is a former division of the Israeli Defense Ministry and is now one of the biggest government companies when it comes to the development and production of fighting technologies for both the Israel Defense Forces and export.

In 2008, the Indian Army purchased Spyder anti-aircraft missile systems from Rafael in a deal worth $270 million. In 2009 another deal between Rafael and the Indian Army was signed, when the Army bought anti-aircraft systems worth $1 billion.

According to the words of Jyotiraditya Scindia, Minister of State for Commerce and Industry, the cooperation between the Israeli company and India's army can only benefit for India as Israel's security systems are currently one of the most advanced. Israel is currently India's largest arms supplier as it has exported equipment worth $3 billion to the Indian Army.

Currently Israel and India are trying to set the fundaments of cooperation in other sectors as well. Renewable energy and computer science are the next areas in which the two countries on focusing on cooperating. According to officials, the leading Israeli institutions are keen on cooperating with IT specialists on exchange and collaboration of research. If this happens, this will be a huge step in the enhancing of scientific cooperation between India and Israel.

At the moment Israel is trying to win the sympathy of Indian citizens as well. The Israel Project (TIP) is a non-government and non-profit organization which focuses on improving Israel's image in the eyes of the Indian residents and to enhance the relations between the two countries.
 

ajay_ijn

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In 2008, the Indian Army purchased Spyder anti-aircraft missile systems from Rafael in a deal worth $270 million. In 2009 another deal between Rafael and the Indian Army was signed, when the Army bought anti-aircraft systems worth $1 billion.
exactly, how many and who purchased SPYDER?
I am reading different versions, one says Air force purchased SPYDERs and another says Army purchased.
 

joe81

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When a sword arm is worth it
Myth and reality in the cost of Tejas, the IAF and Navy's under-development fighter.

The spotlight is swinging on to the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). It has been cleared for induction into the Indian Air Force, construction has begun on two squadrons (40 aircraft) and the IAF is picking 40 per cent of the tab for developing a more powerful Tejas Mark II. Now its designers are hitting out at critics who charge the programme has greatly overshot its budget.

P S Subramanyam, head of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which spearheads the Tejas programme, has given Business Standard detailed financial figures to argue the development cost has remained within budget. ADA also notes the Tejas is significantly cheaper than any comparable fighter.

'No overshoot'
Slamming some recent media reports that the Tejas was enormously over budget, Subramanyam reveals just Rs 6,051 crore has been spent so far on the fighter, that performed aerobatics at the Aero India show in Bangalore this month. Another Rs 746 crore (of the sanctioned Rs 3,650 crore) has been spent on the naval Tejas, which will fly from the Indian Navy's future aircraft carriers.

ADA has provided a detailed cost breakdown. The LCA project began in 1983 (the name Tejas only came later), with a preliminary allocation of Rs 560 crore for 'feasibility studies and project definition'. Subramanyam complains that accusations of cost overruns stem from the misperception that Rs 560 crore was the entire budget for developing the Tejas. In fact, this was merely for defining the project and creating the infrastructure needed for designing, building, testing and certifying a fighter.

Only after a decade of infrastructure building did the design work start, when the ministry of defence (MoD) sanctioned Rs 2,188 crore in 1993 (which included the initial Rs 560 crore). This allocation was to fund the building of two 'technology demonstrator' Tejas fighters.

"Within this budget, we flew the Tejas in 2001, and even built two extra Tejas prototypes," says Subramanyam. "And, that was without any adjustment for inflation or foreign exchange appreciation, though the dollar shot up from Rs 26 to Rs 47 during that period. Our forex component of Rs 873 crore should have been adjusted to Rs 1,642 crore."

Buoyed by the successful test flight in 2001, the MoD allocated ADA Rs 3,302 crore in November 2001, for Phase-II of the programme. This was to fund a production line and the building and flight-testing of 8 'limited series production' fighters. Phase-II will run till 2012, when the Tejas obtains final operational clearance (FOC) for induction into the IAF as a frontline fighter.

In 2009, with the Tejas flight-testing running slow, ADA obtained an additional Rs 2,475 crore from the government for Phase-II. Subramanyam argues this is not a cost overrun. "The MoD's allocation of 2001 contained no protection from inflation. If you roll back our annual expenditure to the base year of 2001, we remained within budget," says the ADA chief.

The IAF is now confident that its Tejas Mk-I will obtain FOC in 2012, within the sanctioned Rs 7,965 crore (Rs 2,188 + Rs 3,302 + Rs 2,475) crore. What remains is to integrate a long-range missile; to enable mid-air refuelling; and to enable the Tejas to fly as slow as 200 kmph.

What we got
Subramanyam argues that this money has not just developed the Tejas, but also India's ability to build serious fighters. "Consider the aerospace infrastructure that we have built across the country, in key DRDO laboratories, defence PSUs, private industry, academic institutions, and test facilities like the National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC). This has bridged a technology and infrastructure gap of two-three generations," he says.

Meanwhile, the naval Tejas willfly within weeks. Significantly different from the IAF version, the naval Tejas must get airborne within 195 metres (the length of an aircraft carrier deck) and withstand the cruel impact of repeated deck landings, in which it must be slammed down precisely where the deck begins. Of the Rs 1,729 crore allocated for the naval Tejas, ADA has spent Rs 746 crore so far.

Encouraged by the success of Tejas Mk-I, the MoD allocated Rs 2,432 crore in 2009 for making the IAF's fighter even better: developing a Tejas Mk-II, with a newer, beefier, GE-414 engine. Simultaneously, Rs 1,921 crore was sanctioned for the Naval Tejas Mk-II. While the Navy funded 40 per cent of its fighter from the start, the IAF is a new convert, matching the Navy in funding the Tejas Mk-II.

"By 2012, the total development cost for an IAF and a naval Tejas — including a single-seat fighter and a twin-seat trainer variant for each — will be Rs 9,690 crore. Another Rs 4,353 crore will be spent on the Tejas Mark-II, bringing the total cost to Rs 14,047 crore," says Subramanyam.

The Gripen, a comparable if somewhat more advanced fighter, which Sweden developed during this period, cost US $13.5 billion for 204 fighters, assuming complete tax exemption. A similar number of Tejas fighters entering IAF and Navy service would — provided that HAL holds the Tejas manufacturing price at its current estimate of Rs 180 crore per fighter — have cost India US $11.28 billion.

Given that Sweden entered the Gripen programme with a mature aerospace industry (coming off the successful Viggen programme), India will have built the Tejas, as also an entire aerospace design and manufacturing eco-system, for 17 per cent less money than Sweden paid for the Gripen.
 

Rage

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dress shirts and pants? rather odd dress code for assembly line workers.
That's because they're not Assembly line. They're engineers working on a prototype.

These are Assembly line workers from a connate organization under the same parent.


 
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RebateKing

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That's because they're not Assembly line. They're engineers working on a prototype.

These are Assembly line workers from a connate organization under the same parent.
You must be right, it's the LCA-N.
I still hope they get the option to be in more casual clothes, like jeans. :)
 

neo29

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MOD asks HAL to look for export customers for Tejas MK-2

As per SHIV AROOR blog (http://livefist.blogspot.com) , Ministry of De fence has asked HAL manufacturer of Tejas MK-2 , to look for prospective Export customers for the Ingeniously manufactured Fourth generation aircraft , In next decade more then two dozen countries are looking for replacing their old fighter aircraft with newer fourth generation aircraft's .

But HAL will be facing strong competition from Russians , Chinese and European aircraft manufactures ,who have good political and industrial backing to pull all the right strings to get orders , Americans air force will also be retiring lot of their surplus F-16 which will be make it difficult for Tejas MK-2 to get export orders .

South Africa was interested in Tejas initially when LCA had conducted few of its first flight ,but then purchased Gripen because of uncertainty of Tejas hitting production line . HAL might have to provide striped down Tejas MK-2 to complete with low priced Chinese developed fighter aircraft like JF-17 .

Chinese have been providing subsidized Chinese J-7 fighters to African countries in last few decades , expert term finding exports orders for Tejas MK-2 highly unlikely .

http://idrw.org/?p=596
 

nitesh

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With US engine, this will be almost impossible to export, but seeing this news it seems there is definite plan for installing kaveri (or the JV engine) on LCA. I hope we will be able to make some export customers like we have got with ALH
 

p2prada

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All exports will happen after 2020. IAF and IN needs have to be satisfied first.
 
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