ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[black eagle]

Tarmak007 Special: No. 45 Flying Daggers will be Tejas Squadron

 

[black eagle]

 

[nitesh]

nice video:


also check the experience put in for the testing:

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/02/men-and-their-flying-machine-day-at.html

The headphone crackles in his ears as Wing Commander Pranjal Singh looks out from the cockpit of his Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, codenamed LSP-3, at the sun-baked runway stretching ahead. Once again he blesses the Indian designers who built the Tejas cockpit: in the Sukhoi-30MKI that he flew before test pilot school, he would have been dripping sweat.

Group Captain George Thomas, built like a bull, has commanded a squadron of Su-30MKIs. Group Captain Ritu Raj Tyagi, the most experienced of the group and a former Jaguar combat commander, ran the last Mumbai marathon as a diversion from flight testing. Captain Jaideep Maolankar, who cut his teeth flying Sea Harrier fighters off naval aircraft carriers, commanded warship INS Ganga as it chased pirates off the Somali coast. Group Captain Venugopal, like Varma, has commanded a MiG-21 squadron on the Pakistani border.

Even Pranjal, the baby of the team, is by conventional standards a veteran pilot, having commanded a Sukhoi-30MKI squadron. Now learning the ropes at the NTFC, he will extensively test the first two Tejas fighters that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited delivers to the IAF this year.

The LSP-3 streaks into the sky. Pranjal's mission is to test a new smoke winder--an under-wing pod that trails smoke. The device will help the NFTC test the Tejas' reaction when it flies into a jet wake, a deadly 250-kmph blast of air emitted by a jet engine flying ahead.

Jet streams confuse fly-by-wire fighters like the Tejas, which are kept stable by on-board computers. Swedish company Saab crashed one of their Gripen fighters during testing when it flew into one. But these NFTC pilots seem to believe that flying the Tejas into a jet stream is just another day at the office. This matter-of-fact approach to the unknown leads NASA to choose most of its astronauts from the test pilot community.

In western air forces, like the US Air Force, test pilots do nothing but flight testing. But while specialisation allows them to stay in close touch with test programmes, pilots become disconnected from combat flying. The IAF's philosophy is different. "Our tactics are evolving so quickly that we feel it is better to keep moving pilots between test flying and operational squadrons. That brings the latest operational doctrines into aircraft development," explains Thomas.

 

[Rage]

Thanks for the information Rage!! Any idea about avionics package decided for MkII.. Will AESA radar be ready by that time?? I heard sometime back that pylons are to be made little wider for two extra hard points!!..

I'll let you direct that question to other members, I don't know much, but what I do know, is that the Mk.II will have 3 Samtel 6"x8" AMLCD MFD's instead of the 5 (2xSSID, 3 MFD's) now as per tentative proposals.

The thing about the pylons seems credible- if you look closely, a bulging/faring seems to be obvious between the intakes and the inboard pylon, which suggests that a thicker wing may be able to accommodate extra hardpoints.

My info. is that an AESA won't be included on the initial prototype or the initial deliveries. The LRDE is, however, working on one that may lead to a retrofit under subsequent upgrades.

Adding:

Why can't ADA think of having a 'Canard' to improve the lift!. As the fuselage is extended a bit will it be effective to have a control-canard in MkII?? Will that add better maneuverability for the bird??

We don't need a canard:simply, because this is a compound wing. The rearward-sweep angle of a compound wing vastly lowers the airspeed normal to the leading edge of the wing, generating useful lift, essentially performing the function of a (lifting-)canard, with very low wing-per-unit loading. On the other hand, a control-canard, such as on the Mirage-III S, has very poor stealth characteristics. A canard-delta would also suffer from smaller shifts in the center of lift with increasing velocity, particularly at already high speeds. One conceivable benefit of control-canards could be the reduction/avoidance of pitch up, but those are mostly for swept-wings, and I haven't seen the LCA encounter that problem. Besides, redesigning an airframe and wing structure to accept canards is not without problems, including changes in fuel-centre of gravity, induced drag incompatibility /changes in max lift coefficients, directional stability and the lack of winglets/ wing fences, distortions in additional load distribution on the wings, etc. A close-coupled canard might be considered, but I think that could lead to too many additional complications.

 

[p2prada]

@Rage

What pisses me off is why ADA did not go for a Cropped Delta like Gripen. They start off with a requirement for interceptor which was fine in the beginning. A compound delta would have fit the role of an interceptor as in M-2000. But a cropped delta would have pushed the design envelope even further. The F-16 is proof of that. Was it short sightedness or just a lack of technical know-how. No aircraft after the Mirage-2000 era, except LCA, was planned as a compound delta. Even MKI is a tailed cropped delta.

EDIT: Heck, even JF-17 is a cropped delta.

 

[SATISH]

@P2P

Gripen is more like a pure delta enhanced with canards. it has a modified trailing edge for better control surface actions. JF 17 is a delta with LERX....

 

[gogbot]

See i don't get why the LCA mkII can't be the same as the LCA-N and use LEVCONS

 

[SATISH]

See i don't get why the LCA mkII can't be the same as the LCA-N and use LEVCONS

Perhaps weight might be the issue there.

 

[p2prada]

@P2P

Gripen is more like a pure delta enhanced with canards. it has a modified trailing edge for better control surface actions. JF 17 is a delta with LERX....

Gripen has wing tip pylons mate. Wing tip pylons = cropped. And the rest as you said.

JF-17, Flankers have immovable LERX while Eurocanards have canards. All are cropped.

Compound is next to useless in medium and low altitudes. Sure, LCA is useful over Himalayas, but Cropped would have been even better. Saab introduced Canards on their compound delta Viggen and it gave it pretty good performance at low speeds. But LCA, I am not so sure. It's just gonna fly fast and straight before making a Massive 180 deg turn before trying to get into the enemy's backside.

All in all I guess LCA will have the best roll rates, unless even that is "cropped" due to bad design. Only Mk2 will achieve IAF's final ASR.

EDIT:: @Gogbot

The Mk2 isn't a new design or a major modification like Hornet to Super Hornet. The main purpose of the Mk2 was design optimization. They only wanted the LCA to adhere to the existing ASR and some features were tweaked. That is basically to make the aircraft less draggy and more aerodynamic with a more powerful engine.

The LEVCONS are mainly to assist in STOL operations on carriers.

 

[SATISH]

Compound is next to useless in medium and low altitudes. Sure, LCA is useful over Himalayas, but Cropped would have been even better. Saab introduced Canards on their compound delta Viggen and it gave it pretty good performance at low speeds. But LCA, I am not so sure. It's just gonna fly fast and straight before making a Massive 180 deg turn before trying to get into the enemy's backside.

Well in ACM with a delta...not even a rookie pilot will do a 180 degree...he rather go in for a Immelman's turn...he will lose lesser energy doing it....one needs to fight with the strengths he has knowing the weakness and strengths of the enemy. LCA will fight in the vertical after the merge..it would be stupidity to turn with the opponent. The Compound delta has it's own advantages like maintainance issues and climb performance with lesser drag (that's what was actually envisaged). I would not call a compound delta completely useless..remember the actual GSQR was for the replace meant of the Gnat and later on shifted to MiG 21.

 

[p2prada]

Well in ACM with a delta...not even a rookie pilot will do a 180 degree...he rather go in for a Immelman's turn...he will lose lesser energy doing it....one needs to fight with the strengths he has knowing the weakness and strengths of the enemy. LCA will fight in the vertical after the merge..it would be stupidity to turn with the opponent. The Compound delta has it's own advantages like maintainance issues and climb performance with lesser drag (that's what was actually envisaged). I would not call a compound delta completely useless..remember the actual GSQR was for the replace meant of the Gnat and later on shifted to MiG 21.

I was joking when I said 180 deg turn mate. Notice the word Massive with capital 'M.'

Lag Roll and High G Barrel Roll come to mind with the LCA, with the defensive spiral to evade. I am guessing LCA is more of a team effort fighter than a 1vs1. Wingman etc will be involved after all. But all aircraft with High AoA like MKI or Gripen will evade these maneuvers easily. The last I heard even F-16 had a hard time against High AoA maneuvers compared to high G maneuvers in 2006. For eg: I doubt the LCA can perform the Tail slide as easily as the Gripen does, if it can do it in the first place.

Anyway, any idea what is the roll rate of the LCA?

 

[SATISH]

I was joking when I said 180 deg turn mate. Notice the word Massive with capital 'M.'

Lag Roll and High G Barrel Roll come to mind with the LCA, with the defensive spiral to evade. I am guessing LCA is more of a team effort fighter than a 1vs1. Wingman etc will be involved after all. But all aircraft with High AoA like MKI or Gripen will evade these maneuvers easily. The last I heard even F-16 had a hard time against High AoA maneuvers compared to high G maneuvers in 2006. For eg: I doubt the LCA can perform the Tail slide as easily as the Gripen does, if it can do it in the first place.

Anyway, any idea what is the roll rate of the LCA?

Hey the AoA itself is a classified info that we are flouting around in the open...I think LCA has the highest number of articles criticizing it's AoA. yes keeping up with sustained AoA is difficult...but LCA was never meant to be 1 vs 1. It is an interceptor and they hunt in packs.

 

[p2prada]

Hey the AoA itself is a classified info that we are flouting around in the open...I think LCA has the highest number of articles criticizing it's AoA. yes keeping up with sustained AoA is difficult...but LCA was never meant to be 1 vs 1. It is an interceptor and they hunt in packs.

ADA announced the AoA figures, it's not speculation. AoA isn't secret because people can see it. Also I am not hung up on AoA. With just compound wings without vortex controllers the AoA will not exceed 35 deg or risk a deep stall. It's a risk that will be carried out in test flights though. So, final AoA figure is up to speculation. Information will be released upon achieving it. The N-LCA with LERX may handle more considering they need it for carrier landing and take off.

Normally cropped deltas handle very high AoAs with vortex controllers and we already see that on Rafale(32 deg FCS and XX deg beyond that), MKI(80deg with FCS+TVC and xx deg beyond) etc. Perhaps with the design optimization on LCA Mk2 we may end up with a Mirage-2000+ by 2016 or even a Mig-21++.

We have no idea what else they are planning on the Mk2. Compound deltas cannot handle too much engine power especially considering LCA's wing loading is already very low. So, touching 114 or 115KN will be too much on the F-414 for the LCA. If IAF is not expecting Mk2 to go beyond what is specified then the engine power will be cut back to 100KN as they originally wanted. Unless of course we are getting the EPE version or something.

Satish, the enemy fighters will be in packs too.

 

[nitesh]

http://aeroindia2011pics.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2011-02-13T01:25:00-08:00&max-results=10

 

[Pintu]

http://www.livemint.com/2011/02/13204243/Tejas-to-be-fitted-with-Israel.html?atype=tp

* Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011. 1:00 AM IST
* Published on page 5

* Home
*

Tejas to be fitted with Israeli Derby missile
Pact by March with Rafael Advanced Defence Systems to supply missile system for 200 fighters

Sridhar K. Chari & Bhargavi Kerur

Israel's Derby missile is the weapon of choice for India's Tejas fighter. A contract will be signed by March with Rafael Advanced Defence Systems Ltd to supply the air-to-air missile system to be fitted on some 200 jets, said P.S. Subramanya, director of India's Aeronautical Development Agency, which is developing the light combat aircraft.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has ordered 40 Tejas planes. The aircraft recently obtained restricted initial operational clearance, with a full clearance targeted for December 2012. While the IAF has expressed an interest for 100 of the Mk-II version of the fighter, the navy is looking for 60 of the naval versions, Subramanya said.

A key criterion for the full clearance is the integration of a so-called beyond-visual-range missile. Delivery of the missiles is, thus, expected in the second half of 2012.

Other elements of the clearance include an increase in the angle of attack from the current 20-22 degrees to about 24 degrees. The angle is the highest at which the aircraft can meet air flow without stalling.

India's Sea Harrier jets carry Derby missiles. Fourteen of them were upgraded recently with the missile in a limited-upgrade programme.

The Python missile, closely related to the Derby, was also an option for the Tejas, Subramanya stated.

The Tejas Mk-I variant has obtained initial operational clearance. Mission capability will come with the integration of weapon systems that include the Derby missile. The Mk-II will be fitted with a more powerful engine than the first variant.

The Sea Harrier upgrade with the Derby missile was criticized by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) last year in a report, saying the navy zeroed in on the Derby without a proper open tender procurement process. During trials, the Derby did not perform at the required range, but was still accepted, the CAG said.

The decision to go with a foreign missile was made last year. The Defence Research and Development Organisation is also developing a similar missile called the Astra.

Subramanya said the Astra was doing well in ballistic trials from the ground, and in a couple of months it will be tested on the Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter, of which some 124 are in service with the IAF, which has plans to induct an additional 150 similar aircraft by 2015. "A new missile is always tested on a proven aircraft," said Subramanya. The Astra is intended to have a range of about 80km.

[email protected]

 

[SATISH]

ADA announced the AoA figures, it's not speculation. AoA isn't secret because people can see it. Also I am not hung up on AoA. With just compound wings without vortex controllers the AoA will not exceed 35 deg or risk a deep stall. It's a risk that will be carried out in test flights though. So, final AoA figure is up to speculation. Information will be released upon achieving it. The N-LCA with LERX may handle more considering they need it for carrier landing and take off.

Normally cropped deltas handle very high AoAs with vortex controllers and we already see that on Rafale(32 deg FCS and XX deg beyond that), MKI(80deg with FCS+TVC and xx deg beyond) etc. Perhaps with the design optimization on LCA Mk2 we may end up with a Mirage-2000+ by 2016 or even a Mig-21++.

We have no idea what else they are planning on the Mk2. Compound deltas cannot handle too much engine power especially considering LCA's wing loading is already very low. So, touching 114 or 115KN will be too much on the F-414 for the LCA. If IAF is not expecting Mk2 to go beyond what is specified then the engine power will be cut back to 100KN as they originally wanted. Unless of course we are getting the EPE version or something.

Satish, the enemy fighters will be in packs too.

Yes I agree with you. But LCA has it's flaws just like other aircraft...MK2 is what is the actually envisaged ASR...not the MK1...but I think the LCA MK1 is a far better choice as a stop gap measure instead of upgrading the MiG 21s.

The compound delta can handle high speeds.

All fighters move in packs...the most preffered interception formation is the finger four.

 

[ppgj]

nice video:


also check the experience put in for the testing:

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/02/men-and-their-flying-machine-day-at.html

thanks Nitesh for that LCA video. most spirited and beautiful display ever seen by me.

half a barrel roll...flying inverse...reverse vertical loops...tight banking turns...full barrel rolls...steep climbs...

wow. and it will only get better from here!!! who needs canards for this?? ADA was afterall correct in their design. well done.

also thanks for the nice article by Ajai shukla.

 

[p2prada]

The compound delta can handle high speeds.

But not the one we built. It's currently at Mach 1.6 and only at high altitudes. The last I heard, it goes transonic at low altitudes. And G limits are -3.5/8.

I understand all fighters have flaws, but our has one too many. Oh! Well. I hope they don't mess up the AMCA now.

I actually think Mk1 has more to do with achieving a milestone than do anything else. A 2011 induction sounds better than 2016 after all. ADA did not even wait until June 2011 for IOC when IAF gets it's first IOC qualified plane.

End of ranting.

All fighters move in packs...the most preffered interception formation is the finger four.

I like the F-22 formation. The middle finger thrust......*jokes jokes*
Have you started on A song of ice and fire?

 

[nitesh]

thanks Nitesh for that LCA video. most spirited and beautiful display ever seen by me.

half a barrel roll...flying inverse...reverse vertical loops...tight banking turns...full barrel rolls...steep climbs...

wow. and it will only get better from here!!! who needs canards for this?? ADA was afterall correct in their design. well done.

also thanks for the nice article by Ajai shukla.

It is indeed a fantastic display, thanks to the person who shot it (Dr, shiv), quite energetic display, also by seeing the gamut of experienced pilots testing this baby is a positive sign.

 

[RPK]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/tejas-deadline-likely-to-be-postponed/749760/0

Tejas deadline likely to be postponed
Pranav Kulkarni

The final operational clearance (FOC) for India's first indigenous aircraft, LCA Tejas, is expected to come by December 2012. While the DRDO and Tejas authorities have been projecting the date, talking exclusively to The Indian Express, one of the IAF pilots involved in the development of Tejas argued that the tedious certification process and the suggestions IAF has sent to the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) might postpone the deadline further. He said that there is no resource crunch, but the 20-year gap post-Marut is too wide to be bridged so fast.


"For the FOC, the aircraft has to go through a tedious certification process that involves tests for each and every component. While the list is long, some of the suggestions we have approached the HAL with include drop tank, store integration, flutter, specifications of sensors, carriage, equipment integration, and so on. In fact, we also have suggestions regarding envelope expansion — angle of attack and 'g'. Given the lengthy certification process, the December 2012 deadline would be missed," said the pilot on condition of anonymity. The pilot added, "The DRDO is projecting the December 2012 deadline just because post that deadline, it would become a 30-year project and it might not be a good tag."



Giving an example the pilot added, "Store integration is a lengthy process. It involves geometric issues, besides aspects such as centre of gravity, aero dynamics, fusing, weaponry, intra-store effects and so on. The drop tank specifications involve sensor specifications, electronics, loads, so that it does not hit the aircraft and others."


"It is a good aircraft. By the time we obtain the FOC, it is going to be five to six times better than what it is now,' said Group Captain George Thomas, Group Director, Flight Test Operations, ADA.


The LCA team has been performing breathtaking aerobatics at the Yelahanka Air Base in Bangalore with five aircraft taking flights, two on display and one on static display