2016 India–Pakistan military confrontation

Indx TechStyle

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Israel is certainly weaker yet they are bold.
Israel is nothing without foreign support.

Their situation and aspirations too are different. They are surrounded by muzzie countries, they are a rich nation plus they are backed by US, Russia, China, India, EU or any other major force, in anything right or wrong. Their ultimate goal is to protect their existence mere and not being an expeditionary power.

You want to be Israel? You will be occupied in South Asia only for fighting with others, economy and military ramp up will be static and all dreams of leading world can be dumped.

Even then we will be weaker, because Israel can access sensitive US military weapons but we can't.
Further how on earth India agreed to DGMO level meeting without asking Pakistan to hand over our soldier?
Probably something you must not have asked but I don't blame you because you have no info, go few pages back or search on Pakistani newspapers, we have done something too and Pakistanis are bashing their officials because they can't even respond equally.
 

India22

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Israel is nothing without foreign support.
It is.

Their situation and aspirations too are different. They are surrounded by muzzie countries, they are a rich nation plus they are backed by US, Russia, China, India, EU or any other major force, in anything right or wrong. Their ultimate goal is to protect their existence mere and not being an expeditionary power.
Learn some history? Show me a single naval power able to exert influence on other part of world while being engaged with hostile nations.

You want to be Israel? You will be occupied in South Asia only for fighting with others, economy and military ramp up will be static and all dreams of leading world can be dumped.

Even then we will be weaker, because Israel can access sensitive US military weapons but we can't.
We are already engaged with Pakistan and China. We cant be super power and have naval ambition in realistic manner while we have hostile countries in border. No country ever emerged as prime naval power despite having hostile neighbour. Thinking India will emerge as Naval powder while we Chinese and Pakistanis regularly intrude is just pipe dream. Instead of ACs we have to create more Mountain Divisions. That is another topic though.

Probably something you must not have asked but I don't blame you because you have no info, go few pages back or search on Pakistani newspapers, we have done something too and Pakistanis are bashing their officials because they can't even respond equally.
He is still imprisoned. If you have discussed please tell Page No. then.
 

here2where

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But what really really upsets me is the astonishing way in which the terrorists appear to snuff out the life of our soldiers. I dont understand how these terrorists are able to kill so many of our soldiers inside our own bases so regularly. They are not even using suicide trucks or vans. They just come in with grenades and AKs and unleash so much death? How is it even possible? It appears to be coz of pathetic guarding of our bases. How can a bunch of guys just "sneak" into a forward army base. And no one seems to learn from so many casualities.

Sorry to sound disrespectful, but if even our bases cant be properly guarded, how is IA going to guard our country, i wonder.
 

Deadshot Para Guy

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But what really really upsets me is the astonishing way in which the terrorists appear to snuff out the life of our soldiers. I dont understand how these terrorists are able to kill so many of our soldiers inside our own bases so regularly. They are not even using suicide trucks or vans. They just come in with grenades and AKs and unleash so much death? How is it even possible? It appears to be coz of pathetic guarding of our bases. How can a bunch of guys just "sneak" into a forward army base. And no one seems to learn from so many casualities.

Sorry to sound disrespectful, but if even our bases cant be properly guarded, how is IA going to guard our country, i wonder.
The terrorists came in the uniform of police so no one could detect at that time that they were terrorists and when they came they open fired with ubgl so it killed 2 personnel at the spot and then they entered the officers mess where they created a hostage like situation so 3 more personnel of IA were killed by tangos as there are no weapons with mess staff...The problem is of intelligence not about the capability of IA.Our army is fully capable of dealing with these threats but if there was no proper intelligence with the IA that made this attack so much lethal..Also no one could easily detect a terrorist when he is in police uniform...So it was an intelligence failure which lead to so many casulties on our side..
 
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sorcerer

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The terrorists came in the uniform of police so no one could detect at that time that they were terrorists and when they came they open fired with ubgl so it killed 2 personnel at the spot and then they entered the officers mess where they created a hostage like situation so 3 more personnel of IA were killed by tangos as there are no weapons with mess staff...The problem is of intelligence not about the capability of IA.Our army is fully capable of dealing with these threats but if there was no proper intelligence with the IA that made this attack so much lethal..Also no one could easily detect a terrorist when he is in police uniform...So it was an intelligence failure which lead to so many casulties on our side..
There was an intel. on such an attack 10 days prior to the attack..and they were on alert as anyway the situation is hyper.

But it could be the nature of the premise or infrastructure that gave it away and gave easy access to the compound.

Something needed to be done in this regard to secure the premises of establishment to thwart, delay and defend such attacks in the future.
Perimeter security should be evaluated and upgraded.
 

here2where

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...The problem is of intelligence not about the capability of IA...
I don't buy that argument.
USA has the best intelligence in the world. Hell, they can probably see me type this. Does that mean their bases are lazily guarded? NO way! Their bases are the best protected as well.
Lets face it - our bases are badly guarded, probably manned by the worst of the bunch. Obviously the best men see action and the worst are shunted out to the guard posts.
Its about time we stop blaming intelligence and instead pull up our collective socks and question how our army bases are actually guarded. Currently they are doing a pathetic job of it. All the walls seem to be crawling with muzzies right now.
No other country's bases have probably been as easily attacked as ours are, that too by uneducated half-starved retards barely out of their teens, born and bred in madrasas. Not even by professional enemy commandos, for god's sake!!!! We are becoming laughing stocks right now.
 

Screambowl

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The such kind of attacks are condemned but you have to give 2 cent praise to their training, or criticise govt. lack of interest in using power.

1. crossing the LOC into a hostile region
2. coordination and not getting caught
3. striking with pin point accuracy
4.causing huge damage

Indian army still does not have this capability of striking deep, not necessarily their own men. No matter you call it terror, but in other words it is proxy.

Americans in Afghanistan faced similar situation, but they were not in their country less logistic support, new environment, still they managed to be offensive and it showed that use of air power does affect.

Indian govt. has no excuse.
 

ghost

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The terrorists came in the uniform of police so no one could detect at that time that they were terrorists and when they came they open fired with ubgl so it killed 2 personnel at the spot and then they entered the officers mess where they created a hostage like situation so 3 more personnel of IA were killed by tangos as there are no weapons with mess staff...The problem is of intelligence not about the capability of IA.Our army is fully capable of dealing with these threats but if there was no proper intelligence with the IA that made this attack so much lethal..Also no one could easily detect a terrorist when he is in police uniform...So it was an intelligence failure which lead to so many casulties on our side..
LOL ,so as per you terrorist should have come in terrorist uniform,with big bandanna over their head stating "terrorist".They fired UGBL,so what else do you expect "they should shower you with rose petals" certainly you do not expect terrorist to walk to you and seek your permission "sir,may I come in".If, it was only you ,than I would have cared less ,but such mentality is also shared by our army top brass which cost lives of our soldiers,at their own base"without fighting".

Fucking ,when you are in a army base, that too in a hot zone,security is obvious and of highest regard.You should be prepared for attack 24hrs round the year.Every unknown person should be treated as hostile unless proven otherwise.If it happens for one time it is misfortune,second time mistake but if happens every time then sheer stupidity.There are fucking morons in our army,for example there is an officer who spend all his fund on making golf course and bar and when it came to building perimeter wall ,he said no funds.(priority)

You fucking talk about intel,fuck there was intel for this but the dumb bastard we Indians are "sab chalta hai" who the fuck care!

I know 100% prevention is not possible but at least bring it to 99% which is possible!

My point is terrorist will do whatever it takes for them to attack,it's upto us to do whatever it takes to protect.Unfortunately,we only neglect!


Don't say we could not have done anything ,we could have done a lot,but we choose to bury our heads in sand and chant"all is well,all is well"

See for reference my old post regarding this:http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...attack-several-personnel-killed.65612/page-13
=======================================================================================

You cannot make anything 100% infiltration proof ,but then you can always make it as much difficult as possible to infiltrate.Securing an army base is very important ,You cannot compare an attack on army base with an attack anywhere else,as army base represent the heart of our security.The hunter should never become the hunted that too at his very own home.

Our army bases are very lack luster in security ; they are sitting duck,it's about time question need to be asked, responsibility to be fixed.

Let me provide a security overview which I think can be deployed for far greater protection of the base.



Outermost will be a ditch preventing suicide bomber vehicles from approaching the first layer wall.

1-Then first layer will be covered with something like HESCO bastion ,It is made of a collapsible wire mesh container and heavy duty fabric liner, and used as a temporary to semi-permanent levee or blast wall against explosions or small-arms.Filled with sand, 60 centimetres of barrier thickness will stop rifle bullets, shell fragments and other shrapnel. Approximately 1.2 metres of thickness provides protection against most car bombs. It takes 1.5 metres of thickness to prevent penetration by a rocket-propelled grenade round. In addition, HESCO bastions are even more effective than sandbags against water.The top of these wall will be covered with razor barbed wire to make it difficult to scale these walls.


2 -The second layer will consisit of : layer of 2 yards of land from outer-most layer ,covered with anti personal mine.


3 - Third layer will be of coiled barbed wire wall 8 to 10 feet high ,with high voltage current running through it.

4 -Fourth will be layer of few yards of land with buried motion detectors under ground.



5- Fifth layer will be of simple wire fencing ,this will allow visibilty upto the first layer while keeping the personael inside camp out of the harm's way of first three layer and from triggering alarm.


6-There will be a machine gun pill box on all sides ,placed in such a location that it's overlooking all layers on its side,for this they should be made on elvated ground .


7-Survellance cameras mounted on poles overlooking all sides of the security permiter.


8 One sentry tech tower inside the base.The Sentry Tech towers are basically remote weapons stations, stuck on top of silos. As suspected hostile targets are detected and within range of Sentry-Tech positions, the weapons are slewing toward the designated target. Multiple stations can be operated by a single operator, one or more units can be used to engage the target, following identification and verification .

This system is designed to create 1500-meter deep "automated kill zones" .

Each unit mounts a 7.62 or .50 machine gun, shielded from enemy fire and the elements by an environmentally protective bulletproof canopy. In addition to the use of direct fire machine guns, observers can also employ precision guided missiles, such as Spike LR optically guided missiles and Lahat laser guided weapons.



9 -One of these kept in a blast proof hanger.It will form the part of base QRT in case of any attack .Will be activated as soon as alarm goes off.

10 -Main gate security will consist of 2 sub phases to prevent vehicle bound attack.
vehicle checkpoints
PHASE 1
A labyrinth forcing at least 2 sharp changes of direction which have to be taken slowly.
The straight-on route has to be very clearly seen to be impassable, by day or night, with no by-pass.

The route through has to be divided into several lanes, as many as needed to keep the queues down.

Each bay needs an easy way of preventing vehicles from leaving; chain hedge hogs can help here. The exit must also have a gate covered by observation posts and the rapid reaction room.

Each bay should be separated by cover from view screens or blast walls, depending on the threat.


Each bay must be observed by a sangar which either covers the bay with armed equipment or at least appears to, as well as the 1 or 2 vehicle checkers per bay.

The VCP should provide secure and comfortable accommodation, rapid reaction guardroom, observation posts.

The normal security systems are needed, depending on the perceived threat, as well as grillage floors.

Steel road bumps discourage high speed.


FOLLOWED BY
PHASE 2
Road Defense Barriers and Gates

Defence-Structures DEAD STOP BARRIERS are designed to resist the impact from moving vehicles, and to stop them in a short distance without the truck or the pay load entering your secure area. They can be built to resist a variety of threats depending on the likely speed of approaching vehicles.
They are designed to stop the truck dead in 2m, and to prevent penetration of the protected area. The 2m is the crushing of the truck, not the barrier.

They can have chains or handrails connecting them to stop motorcycles or shopping trolleys. They should be combined with gates, labyrinths, cover from view screens and other defence structures. Keeping potential bombs as far away as possible from the vital areas is an important factor in force protection.

Such road barriers may be accompanied by softer barriers to make them less lethal.

The barriers may be founded in holes filled with concrete, or can be surface mounted on concrete plinths.

Similar barriers can be built to withstand bigger vehicles at any speed, but it will usually be better to limit approach speeds if possible.

Depending on their positioning they can also be suitable car bomb protection structures.

Defence Structures Embedded Bollards

Embedded bollards are an effective barrier to VBIED's and other high speed vehicle attacks. Such bollards can be installed or retrofitted with Defence Structures doors or gates with the ability to stop and destroy high speed vehicles.

Defence Structures Surface Mount Dragon's Teeth
There is also a need for temporary road barriers, and barriers that do not need to have foundations. In this case the barriers are a battery of DEFENCE-STRUCTURES Dragon's Teeth. These are specially shaped triangular concrete blocks that can be lifted into position using a fork lift truck or crane and linked with chain to block roads or other possible approaches. The kit for these consists of sets of reusable formwork with sets of internal steel work, into which the client can pour concrete, either at a distance or on the final resting site.

Surface mounted Dragon's Teeth are proved to be successful in stopping vehicle borne improvised explosive devices (VBIEDs) and all other types of vehicle attack. The surface mounted Dragon's Teeth can also be fitted with gates raging from personnel doors to large vehicles.


Now base is secured,can you breach it?even if you did ,how much time will you be able to survive inside!

I know it is a little elaborate!but nothing is too much to ensure security of our army bases.

=======================================================================================

I would have shown you the video where taliban tried to enter US base but were blocked and killed,unfortunately that video has been deleted.It was the perfect example of base security at its best.
https://sofrep.com/63737/watch-failed-taliban-attack-us-base/
 

mavles ihctep

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I don't buy that argument.
USA has the best intelligence in the world. Hell, they can probably see me type this. Does that mean their bases are lazily guarded? NO way! Their bases are the best protected as well.
Lets face it - our bases are badly guarded, probably manned by the worst of the bunch. Obviously the best men see action and the worst are shunted out to the guard posts.
Its about time we stop blaming intelligence and instead pull up our collective socks and question how our army bases are actually guarded. Currently they are doing a pathetic job of it. All the walls seem to be crawling with muzzies right now.
No other country's bases have probably been as easily attacked as ours are, that too by uneducated half-starved retards barely out of their teens, born and bred in madrasas. Not even by professional enemy commandos, for god's sake!!!! We are becoming laughing stocks right now.
Asusual speaking from your rear end, these terrorists r well trained and on one-way mission. No army in the world can prevent these attacks.
 

Indx TechStyle

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It's not. Israel crushed UAR in six day war because of political and military support otherwise it would even not have survived.
Learn some history? Show me a single naval power able to exert influence on other part of world while being engaged with hostile nations.
Irrevelent and biased (though China is an example).
We are already engaged with Pakistan and China. We cant be super power and have naval ambition in realistic manner while we have hostile countries in border. No country ever emerged as prime naval power despite having hostile neighbour. Thinking India will emerge as Naval powder while we Chinese and Pakistanis regularly intrude is just pipe dream. Instead of ACs we have to create more Mountain Divisions. That is another topic though.
  1. Two front war & sino pak "joint" threat is a complete bluff. Discussed and explained hundreds of times.
  2. A person who's comparing Indo Pak relations with Indo Chinese must not be on defence forum.
India's relations with China can never be as bitter as with Pak.
During cold war, the Sino Soviet split and bitter relationship of China and Soviet Union lead China not only to pushed towards US block but make itself competitive. Similarly, with Chinese threat, India at least gets some substance to follow which will continue to be more probable instead of realistic because as stronger are countries, lesser is the probability of conflict. So, it'll actually help India to get a more influential position.

Meanwhile, applying same logic to Pak is as absurd as comparibg a terrorist with a nuke.
I'm all in for roasting these b@stard SOBs but against your opinion India doesn't need to divert entire resources towards this (only because you are asking India to do like Israel). India has been doing, retaliating whatever is possible, but I don't guess we have a free kit for doing what you are actually wishing, we will have to make it, instead of doing a blind attempt like a 15 years old teenager.
He is still imprisoned. If you have
discussed please tell Page No. then.
I'm not talking about him being imprisoned, I'm talking about casualties on other side which are higher than official no..
50 to 66% of Kashmir Valley (Muslims) want independent state or Azadi.
They got it, they are free to go back to their middle eastern hell from whichever the planet, they were dropped.
Kashmir has an origin of Buddhist and Hindu culture in deep roots and foreigner Muslims can never ever have any right to call themselves Kashmiris.
 

Indx TechStyle

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No army in the world can prevent these attacks.
We prevented a lot of attacks and arrested/encountered a number of terrorists post-Pathankot and post-Uri.

So, did the other nations. But in the end, it again occured. You will find a way, they'll also get way through it sooner or later.
 

Bornubus

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Most of these unexpected terrorist attack happen due to lax security rather than intelligence failure.


In my Army cantt (Brigade strength) there is only one "sentry" on duty outside the Officer's Mess shed.

Yes just one sentry guarding a Mechanized infantry officers mess.


Even on the entrance there are 3 Armed troops and one unarmed sentry checking Helmets, ID of people going in the Cantt.


Also, the sentries most of the time busy chatting and cracking jokes while standing in the shed which won't even save them from Handgun.



This is the general state of security of most of the cantts outside Kashmir.
 
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Screambowl

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LOL ,so as per you terrorist should have come in terrorist uniform,with big bandanna over their head stating "terrorist".They fired UGBL,so what else do you expect "they should shower you with rose petals" certainly you do not expect terrorist to walk to you and seek your permission "sir,may I come in".If, it was only you ,than I would have cared less ,but such mentality is also shared by our army top brass which cost lives of our soldiers,at their own base"without fighting".

Fucking ,when you are in a army base, that too in a hot zone,security is obvious and of highest regard.You should be prepared for attack 24hrs round the year.Every unknown person should be treated as hostile unless proven otherwise.If it happens for one time it is misfortune,second time mistake but if happens every time then sheer stupidity.There are fucking morons in our army,for example there is an officer who spend all his fund on making golf course and bar and when it came to building perimeter wall ,he said no funds.(priority)

You fucking talk about intel,fuck there was intel for this but the dumb bastard we Indians are "sab chalta hai" who the fuck care!

I know 100% prevention is not possible but at least bring it to 99% which is possible!

My point is terrorist will do whatever it takes for them to attack,it's upto us to do whatever it takes to protect.Unfortunately,we only neglect!


Don't say we could not have done anything ,we could have done a lot,but we choose to bury our heads in sand and chant"all is well,all is well"

See for reference my old post regarding this:http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...attack-several-personnel-killed.65612/page-13
=======================================================================================

You cannot make anything 100% infiltration proof ,but then you can always make it as much difficult as possible to infiltrate.Securing an army base is very important ,You cannot compare an attack on army base with an attack anywhere else,as army base represent the heart of our security.The hunter should never become the hunted that too at his very own home.

Our army bases are very lack luster in security ; they are sitting duck,it's about time question need to be asked, responsibility to be fixed.

Let me provide a security overview which I think can be deployed for far greater protection of the base.



Outermost will be a ditch preventing suicide bomber vehicles from approaching the first layer wall.

1-Then first layer will be covered with something like HESCO bastion ,It is made of a collapsible wire mesh container and heavy duty fabric liner, and used as a temporary to semi-permanent levee or blast wall against explosions or small-arms.Filled with sand, 60 centimetres of barrier thickness will stop rifle bullets, shell fragments and other shrapnel. Approximately 1.2 metres of thickness provides protection against most car bombs. It takes 1.5 metres of thickness to prevent penetration by a rocket-propelled grenade round. In addition, HESCO bastions are even more effective than sandbags against water.The top of these wall will be covered with razor barbed wire to make it difficult to scale these walls.


2 -The second layer will consisit of : layer of 2 yards of land from outer-most layer ,covered with anti personal mine.


3 - Third layer will be of coiled barbed wire wall 8 to 10 feet high ,with high voltage current running through it.

4 -Fourth will be layer of few yards of land with buried motion detectors under ground.



5- Fifth layer will be of simple wire fencing ,this will allow visibilty upto the first layer while keeping the personael inside camp out of the harm's way of first three layer and from triggering alarm.


6-There will be a machine gun pill box on all sides ,placed in such a location that it's overlooking all layers on its side,for this they should be made on elvated ground .


7-Survellance cameras mounted on poles overlooking all sides of the security permiter.


8 One sentry tech tower inside the base.The Sentry Tech towers are basically remote weapons stations, stuck on top of silos. As suspected hostile targets are detected and within range of Sentry-Tech positions, the weapons are slewing toward the designated target. Multiple stations can be operated by a single operator, one or more units can be used to engage the target, following identification and verification .

This system is designed to create 1500-meter deep "automated kill zones" .

Each unit mounts a 7.62 or .50 machine gun, shielded from enemy fire and the elements by an environmentally protective bulletproof canopy. In addition to the use of direct fire machine guns, observers can also employ precision guided missiles, such as Spike LR optically guided missiles and Lahat laser guided weapons.



9 -One of these kept in a blast proof hanger.It will form the part of base QRT in case of any attack .Will be activated as soon as alarm goes off.

10 -Main gate security will consist of 2 sub phases to prevent vehicle bound attack.
vehicle checkpoints
PHASE 1
A labyrinth forcing at least 2 sharp changes of direction which have to be taken slowly.
The straight-on route has to be very clearly seen to be impassable, by day or night, with no by-pass.

The route through has to be divided into several lanes, as many as needed to keep the queues down.

Each bay needs an easy way of preventing vehicles from leaving; chain hedge hogs can help here. The exit must also have a gate covered by observation posts and the rapid reaction room.

Each bay should be separated by cover from view screens or blast walls, depending on the threat.


Each bay must be observed by a sangar which either covers the bay with armed equipment or at least appears to, as well as the 1 or 2 vehicle checkers per bay.

The VCP should provide secure and comfortable accommodation, rapid reaction guardroom, observation posts.

The normal security systems are needed, depending on the perceived threat, as well as grillage floors.

Steel road bumps discourage high speed.


FOLLOWED BY
PHASE 2
Road Defense Barriers and Gates

Defence-Structures DEAD STOP BARRIERS are designed to resist the impact from moving vehicles, and to stop them in a short distance without the truck or the pay load entering your secure area. They can be built to resist a variety of threats depending on the likely speed of approaching vehicles.
They are designed to stop the truck dead in 2m, and to prevent penetration of the protected area. The 2m is the crushing of the truck, not the barrier.

They can have chains or handrails connecting them to stop motorcycles or shopping trolleys. They should be combined with gates, labyrinths, cover from view screens and other defence structures. Keeping potential bombs as far away as possible from the vital areas is an important factor in force protection.

Such road barriers may be accompanied by softer barriers to make them less lethal.

The barriers may be founded in holes filled with concrete, or can be surface mounted on concrete plinths.

Similar barriers can be built to withstand bigger vehicles at any speed, but it will usually be better to limit approach speeds if possible.

Depending on their positioning they can also be suitable car bomb protection structures.

Defence Structures Embedded Bollards

Embedded bollards are an effective barrier to VBIED's and other high speed vehicle attacks. Such bollards can be installed or retrofitted with Defence Structures doors or gates with the ability to stop and destroy high speed vehicles.

Defence Structures Surface Mount Dragon's Teeth
There is also a need for temporary road barriers, and barriers that do not need to have foundations. In this case the barriers are a battery of DEFENCE-STRUCTURES Dragon's Teeth. These are specially shaped triangular concrete blocks that can be lifted into position using a fork lift truck or crane and linked with chain to block roads or other possible approaches. The kit for these consists of sets of reusable formwork with sets of internal steel work, into which the client can pour concrete, either at a distance or on the final resting site.

Surface mounted Dragon's Teeth are proved to be successful in stopping vehicle borne improvised explosive devices (VBIEDs) and all other types of vehicle attack. The surface mounted Dragon's Teeth can also be fitted with gates raging from personnel doors to large vehicles.


Now base is secured,can you breach it?even if you did ,how much time will you be able to survive inside!

I know it is a little elaborate!but nothing is too much to ensure security of our army bases.

=======================================================================================

I would have shown you the video where taliban tried to enter US base but were blocked and killed,unfortunately that video has been deleted.It was the perfect example of base security at its best.
https://sofrep.com/63737/watch-failed-taliban-attack-us-base/

Can't agree more. I would add, Kashmir is our territory and Americans managed in foreign territory more hostile than Kashmir.
 

Project Dharma

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Many many surveys said

50 to 66% of Kashmiris (Muslims) want independent state or Azadi.

According to this .. Minimum 1 Kashmiri (Muslim) Army Officer/Soldier/Doctor/Police from 2 Army Officer/Soldier/Doctor/Police want freedom and support those terrorist groups. :shoot:

Stop being politically correct!!
How many Kashmiri Muslim officers are in the Army especially at higher ranks? Most anti Indian muslims won't join army as officers and I can guarantee you that Indian intelligence will be closely watching the ones who do
 

sukhish

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america won't let them in, because they control them at the gate. India could not do in its yester years, and why it could not fight is because our old maharajas were very divided and also our old practices led to lot of aliation of people which gave invaders an entry on to this land.
 

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