Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by plugwater, Jul 11, 2010.

  1. uoftotaku

    uoftotaku Regular Member

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    You speak of the 4 Ohio class boats converted to SSGN. You will notice that those had ALL their ballistic missiles removed and totally replaced with Tomahawks. Those 04 boats do not carry ANY nuclear payload in their current configuration. At the same time NONE of the remaining 14 Ohio class SSBN's carry ANY tomahawk missiles. The roles are deliberately and completed separated and this conversion was done AFTER the end of the Cold War as part of the START Treat reductions in force. The USN simply found a better use for the 4 hulls than scrapping them..but it was done with agreement from the Russians.

    No SSBN carries any non-nuclear / conventional payload missiles simultaneously! NONE I'm not talking out my ass about these issues...I work in naval industry

    The USN had studied a program called Prompt Global Strike which involved putting conventional payload ballistic missiles on their SSBNs to strike HVT's in the global war on terror. You can read about why that program was rightfully shelved
     
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  2. Shiv sagar

    Shiv sagar Regular Member

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    1. Its pretty much impossible for Pakistan to detect the launch and traveling trajectory of any missile from sea be it k5 or Brahmos or nirbhay. So it doesn't make sense not to carry Brahmos.
    2. Obviously a sub can be identified by its sonar signature. But to know whether it is SSBN OR DIESEL ELECTRIC you need to have pretty sophisticated tech like humsa or p8i...even with that its very difficult to identify diesel electric sub....if you search " how a Swedish sub humiliated the mighty US navy" you will get the picture. Pakistan clearly lacks such sophisticated tech. Hence there is no point in not keeping brahmos in our Ssbn.
    3. There is no confusion in the mind of your adversary once you hit him with Brahmos from a sub whether it be a diesel sub or ssbn. They will react. The confusion arises only when your adversary can identify the difference between a cruise missile and a ballistic missile coming their way fro a country which have a declared first use policy of nukes. Here napakis have no such tech to identify such differences and we have a declared no first use policy. Hence there is a point in carrying Brahmos in our Ssbns ( oh and by the way i teach the ones in navel industry)
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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  3. Chinmoy

    Chinmoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    BRAHMOS is being tested for underwater firing from Vertical Launch Tube. Till date it has not been tested to be fired from torpedo tubes and its dimension also doesn't fit in any torpedo tube of existing subs.

    On other hand, Arihant has test fired K-15. Now dimension wise, K-15 is same to that of BRAHMOS. SO in the same configuration, BRAHMOS could also be fired from Arihant vertical launch tubes.

    Now offcourse arming Arihant with BRAHMOS and firing it is altogether a different ball game. But technically only Arihant can fire BRAHMOS as of now.
     
  4. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Until India makes a proper SSBN the Arihant class can not afford to lose its sea based nuclear deterrent to fire Brahmos instead. That could be an option during their mid-life refits when they no longer have to carry the nuclear mission.
     
  5. Abhijeet Dey

    Abhijeet Dey Senior Member Senior Member

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    This is what Royal Navy Submarines could look like in the future



    Indian Navy and DRDO should also look into underwater combat drones.
     
  6. Prashant12

    Prashant12 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Indian Navy kicks off Rs 50,000 crore lethal submarine project, wants 500 km strike range cruise missiles on them

    Under Project 75-India, the Navy wants to build six conventional diesel-electric submarines which would be almost 50 per cent bigger than the under-construction Scorpene class submarines being built at the Mazagon Dockyards Limited.


    NEW DELHI: The Indian Navy has initiated the process to acquire six lethal submarines under the ambitious Project-75 India likely to cost over Rs 50,000 crore.

    The Navy has initiated the tender process by issuing the initial Expression of Interest to foreign vendors willing to take part in the mega programme.

    Under Project 75-India, the Navy wants to build six conventional diesel-electric submarines which would be almost 50 per cent bigger than the under-construction Scorpene class submarines being built at the Mazagon Dockyards Limited in Mumbai.

    "The draft EOI has been issued to the foreign vendors who would be taking part in the competition along with the probable Indian partners who have also been invited to give suggestions on the strategic partnership policy under which the boats would be built," Sources in the Navy told ANI.

    As per the requirements stated by the maritime force, it wants the submarines to be equipped with heavy-duty firepower as it wants the boats to have at least 12 Land Attack Cruise Missiles (LACM) along with Anti-Ship cruise missiles (ASCM).

    Sources said that the Navy has also specified that the submarines should also be able to carry and launch 18 heavyweight torpedoes in the sea.


    Compared with the Scorpene, the firepower required in the next line of submarines is many times more than what is being put on the Scorpenes which have the heavyweight torpedoes and the Exocet surface to surface missiles as their main weapons.

    After clearing the procurement of these submarines in the Defence Acquisition Council, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman has put a Navy officer as the in-charge of the project.

    An empowered project committee has been formed with the Navy's Controller of Warship Production and Acquisition as the head of the panel including several other Joint Secretaries as its members.

    Navy wants to have a mix of conventional and nuclear submarines in its fleet to manage its area of responsibility stretching from the Malacca Straits to the Indian Ocean Region.

    While the Indian Navy has more than 100 submarines and surface warships, the Pakistani Navy has around 20 of these. However, the Indian Navy is building assets for tackling the Chinese Navy which operates occasionally in the IOR region.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ise-missiles-on-them/articleshow/68718982.cms
     
  7. Enquirer

    Enquirer Senior Member Senior Member

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    Shouldn't it have 1000+ kms range cruise missile....a la...Nirbhay???
    If only 500kms range, then is it Brahmos-1???
     
  8. uoftotaku

    uoftotaku Regular Member

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    If above news and highlighted specs are true then a few points :

    - Scorpene line at MDL is total waste of money and write off just like Type 209 before it. All the time and effort spent to build up the capability there being flushed down the drain

    - it will be at least post 2030 before 75i Subs enter service...meaning they will directly replace the last of the Kilo's

    - IN has presented specs that are suspiciously specific to only 1 known platform....Shortfin Barracuda from Naval Group. The only other SSK that can even come close in terms of simple measure of weapons capacity is the Soryu class but even then it doesn't have VLS for LACM / AshM launch.
     
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  9. Bleh

    Bleh Regular Member

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    Russia is offering its “Lada” class (export modification of Amur-1650). That submarine has AIP & can be equipped with BrahMos missile.

    And i found this drawings of an indigenous double hulled conventional submarine, with and without AIP. Looks much like a conventional version of Arihant!
    Saw it recently in this form too... maybe Aero India.
    DQeQiC3X0AAvuXY.jpg DQeQkUyWAAM5cZm.jpg
    Can anybody here throw some light on these?
     
  10. uoftotaku

    uoftotaku Regular Member

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    Lada class is a design failure. Russian Navy itself rejected it after 1 test hull and opted to continue with Kilo. Afterwards they have been trying to push it for export but no takers so far even though several Kilo have been sold in the same period.

    This VLS equipped version so far only exists on paper. They made it specifically for P75i submission.

    But again if the INs desire for exact spec as per article (12 LACM + 18 Torpedoes + 8Ashms) is true then Lada is insufficient as only 8 VLS tubes are currently equipped along with 18 tube launched weapons.

    In any case it is highly unlikely that Brahmos 1 will ever see service in submarines. By the time P75i comes online Brahmos NG and Brahmos 2 will both be matured so any design proposal will have to take those developments into account.
     
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  11. Abhijeet Dey

    Abhijeet Dey Senior Member Senior Member

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    Perhaps Indian Navy should take help from the US Navy

    Seawolf class submarine
    [​IMG]



    Virginia class submarine
    [​IMG]


    Source: Wikipedia
     
  12. Prashant12

    Prashant12 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Navy wants local inputs for Rs 40,000 crore submarines project


    New Delhi: The navy wants Indian steel, missiles, torpedoes and an indigenously developed air independent propulsion system for its Rs 40,000-crore project to construct six new submarines domestically, one of the largest ‘Make in India’ military orders currently being processed by the government.

    The project, which has been moving faster than another mega plan to build 110 fighter jets in India, has been taken forward with the navy sharing its draft requirements with foreign players who are to share technology with Indian partners to produce the next generation of submarines.

    The requirements, which will be finalised in the coming months before being formally issued to all competitors, make a strong case for Indian systems to be fitted on the submarines with at least 45% indigenisation content.

    The new technology that will differentiate these submarines is Air Independent Propulsion (AIP), a technology that enables the boats to stay underwater for weeks, unlike earlier models where they have to surface after a few days to recharge batteries and take in oxygen.

    As per the draft requirements, foreign players have to certify that they will integrate a ‘proven indigenous AIP’ if required by the navy. This would be a reference to an AIP that is currently under development by DRDO and is being shore tested as of now.

    [​IMG]

    The navy has also stated that it wants to utilise indigenously developed steel for the construction of the submarines as far as possible.

    In fact, the navy will include special incentives in the programme for foreign players that use Indian steel for the programme.

    The biggest boost for Indian developed systems is the requirement for foreign vendors to ensure that an indigenously developed heavy weight torpedo has to be integrated to the submarines.

    The project is currently being undertaken by DRDO that has already supplied such torpedoes for warships and is working on a submarine launched version as well.

    India’s missile programme also finds mentions in the requirements, with the navy set to mandate that the submarine torpedo launched cruise missiles (SLCM) being developed domestically are to be a part of the weapon suite. The Brahmos missile complex is currently working on a next generation missile to meet such requirements.
    The submarines to be built are to have a minimum service life of 30 years and would have to be upgraded and served in India throughout this period.

    However, one clause that the navy has put in its draft requirements that mandates all copyrights for the submarine to be vested to India may raise concern by foreign players who are to share technology.

    The clause says that post the delivery of the sixth submarine, India will have the unlimited right to produce more of the submarines or modify them.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...e-submarines-project/articleshow/68839630.cms
     
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  13. Aaj ka hero

    Aaj ka hero Regular Member

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    Arre bhai toh dubara scorpene order kahe nahi kar rahe ho bhaiya.
    KYA Itna jaldi old maal ho gaya kya.
     
  14. binayak95

    binayak95 Senior Member Senior Member

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    yeh IN hai - they push every order to be the best it can be - one of the underlying reasons why IN units are of a global standard - and INDIAN to boot.
     
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  15. Aaj ka hero

    Aaj ka hero Regular Member

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    So, new skilling of MAZAGON workers will be required because new submarine will be build and it will take time.
    I am against this, scorpene with home made AIP and varunastra torpedo (if they ever develop underwater version) successfully is best.
    TELL me what new we are getting other than brahmos firing capability(because this is the only thing I know about submarine requirements now).
     
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  16. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Indian Navy is better, fast, and efficient than Indian Army and Indian Air Force.
     
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  17. vishwaprasad

    vishwaprasad Regular Member

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    In what way Indian navy is fast??? If you are talking about procurement then let me remind you that we started negotiating Scorpenes in early 2000 but deal could be signed by 2006 only. Then the submarine which was supposed to join navy by 2012 it was commissioned in 2017.... now imagine how long will it take for all submarines to be operational....

    Again this Project 75 drama I am hearing for more than a decade just like that MRCA drama but we don't even have a clue which submarine is going to be selected finally.... Now by the time its decided again first submarine will take somewhere near 2030 to join the duty (calculating time taken from scorpean deal).... by the time all submarines are operational they will be obsolete..... this is the sad realty of our armed forces.... then whenever some emergency like Doklam or Pulwama comes in spite of havng billions dollors budget we are never prepared for any real fight....
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  18. Nick Diniz

    Nick Diniz New Member

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    Any idea which tube launched SLCM is being developed? Will nirbhay be tube launched?
     
  19. Kay

    Kay Senior Member Senior Member

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    US Subs are nuclear powered, which means no.
     
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  20. Kay

    Kay Senior Member Senior Member

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    Royal Navy :rofl:
    These would run on rainbow dust and unicorn biogas. But I agree on the combat drone part.
     

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