BrahMos Cruise Missile

[Chinmoy]

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Then Nirbhay test too coming up? For 700 km NOTAM?


Or is it A1 again this time?

 

[kurup]

Then Nirbhay test too coming up? For 700 km NOTAM?


Or is it A1 again this time?

The test for 700km is from Navy Ship ..... so A1 and Nirbhay can be ruled out .

Most probably it will be an extended range B'mos test from Ship , JMHO .

 

[Arihant Roy]

A Brahmos missile was test fired today from launch complex 3 of ITR. The test was to validate the functionality of the indigenised sections and sub assemblies.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...-with-new-indigenised-components-1818062.html

The missile had indigenised F1, F2 and F3 sections according to the article. Now the thing is these sections have already been indigenised some time back and is being produced by LT and Godrej.


The missile must have some features which are being tested out like an indigenised solid booster.

 

[Arihant Roy]

And things are really very hush and hush with Brahmos-2 . A model of the missile was displayed for the first time at Defexpo 2012. This displayed model has remained same all throughout these years and the fleet xact same model was displayed at this year's Defexpo. This proves that this may be the actual design of Brahmos-2K.

Now you don't suddenly come up with a model of a hypersonic missile with a 300-600 km range and a max speed of M7. Lots of feasibility studies, then airframe design studies, wind tunnel tests, etc goes into it. This means the Brahmos-2 program must have started at least a year before that is in 2011.

At Defexpo 2012, Brahmos officials and the CEO had said it will take another 6-7 years to develope hypersonic variant Now at Defexpo 2018, Dr Sudhir Mishra had said the missile will come in another 10 years.
Something just doesn't add up.

And if the Brahmos-2K is indeed an Indian variant of Zircon, then Brahmos-2K already exists and has been test fired. Coz, the Russian Zircon has undergone many rounds of tests both from the ground and air. In the last quarter of 2017,the Zircon missile was launched from Tu-22M3. The missile has been undergoing tests since 2016 and will enter service with the Russians in 2020. Some units may also receive the missile in 19 itself.


So Brahmos-2K being developed in another 10 years time is nonsense. Or Brahmos-2 isn't Zircon but is an entirely different missile.

Now if Brahmos-2 is an entirely different missile from the Zircon, and is being developed for the most part by us, then what is the aim and scope of the HSTDV program of Drdo. Drdo doesn't have pockets deep enough to have tow hypersonic land strike/maritime strike programs running simultaneously - that is HSTDV and Brahmos-2K. Now if HSTDV is more of a tech demonstrator that will mature and validate concepts and core technologies like scram jet, materials, Aero thermodynamics for Brahmos-2 then why don't we see Brahmos pvt limited talking about the HSTDV program.


Somewhere something is being kept under wraps Or I am thinking too much.

 

[kunal1123]

Or I am thinking too much.

Well i was thinking the same some thingh does not add-up..
It is pivotal to test the [HSTDV] in the range of up to Mach 12. This will be a unique installation in India," Saraswat told AW&ST on 22 November 2010
HSDTV IS SUPPOSE TO HAVE TEST FLIGHT IN DEC -2016. NEVER HAPPEN.

 

[Enquirer]

And things are really very hush and hush with Brahmos-2 . A model of the missile was displayed for the first time at Defexpo 2012. This displayed model has remained same all throughout these years and the fleet xact same model was displayed at this year's Defexpo. This proves that this may be the actual design of Brahmos-2K.

Now you don't suddenly come up with a model of a hypersonic missile with a 300-600 km range and a max speed of M7. Lots of feasibility studies, then airframe design studies, wind tunnel tests, etc goes into it. This means the Brahmos-2 program must have started at least a year before that is in 2011.

At Defexpo 2012, Brahmos officials and the CEO had said it will take another 6-7 years to develope hypersonic variant Now at Defexpo 2018, Dr Sudhir Mishra had said the missile will come in another 10 years.
Something just doesn't add up.

It's not uncommon for DRDO folks to throw out an ambitious completion date even before all aspects of the project are understood. Most delays are attributed to "technological challenges"!!

Most important thing to remember is that the they normally quote the expected duration of the project; even when the full project may not have been sanctioned. Astra-Mk2 was being quoted as being ready in 2 years for nearly 10 years - the project hasn't even started as yet!!!

 

[Chinmoy]

The test for 700km is from Navy Ship ..... so A1 and Nirbhay can be ruled out .

Most probably it will be an extended range B'mos test from Ship , JMHO .

Its ok.... But why the typical flight path? Its quiet abnormal I would say.

 

[Kshithij]

It's not uncommon for DRDO folks to throw out an ambitious completion date even before all aspects of the project are understood. Most delays are attributed to "technological challenges"!!

Most important thing to remember is that the they normally quote the expected duration of the project; even when the full project may not have been sanctioned. Astra-Mk2 was being quoted as being ready in 2 years for nearly 10 years - the project hasn't even started as yet!!!

Hyperonic vehicles will consume fuel insanely. The drag will be so high that the mileage will be extremely low. I am not sure if the hypersonic missile is even a viable option for any country, forget just India. People may test some glide vehicles, but a missile travelling at hypersonic speed within earth's atmosphere (unlike Ballistic missiles which do so outside atmosphere) is a quite difficult.

 

[no smoking]

I am not sure if the hypersonic missile is even a viable option for any country, forget just India.

American, Russian and Chinese don't think so. Each of them have multiple projects on hypersonic weapons, from cruise missiles equipped with scramjet engine to hypro powered plane.

 

[Enquirer]

Hyperonic vehicles will consume fuel insanely. The drag will be so high that the mileage will be extremely low. I am not sure if the hypersonic missile is even a viable option for any country, forget just India. People may test some glide vehicles, but a missile travelling at hypersonic speed within earth's atmosphere (unlike Ballistic missiles which do so outside atmosphere) is a quite difficult.

While I agree that in India's case a longer range (800 kms) Brahmos maybe more useful in the short/medium term, it is also inevitable that air defense systems will mature to intercept supersonic cruise missiles like Brahmos easily. As such hypersonic cruise missiles (despite paying the drag cost) maybe a necessity in the future.

 

[Steven Rogers]

While I agree that in India's case a longer range (800 kms) Brahmos maybe more useful in the short/medium term, it is also inevitable that air defense systems will mature to intercept supersonic cruise missiles like Brahmos easily. As such hypersonic cruise missiles (despite paying the drag cost) maybe a necessity in the future.

800kms range, that means you can say good buy to all weather Mach 3-2.5 speed.

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[Steven Rogers]

American, Russian and Chinese don't think so. Each of them have multiple projects on hypersonic weapons, from cruise missiles equipped with scramjet engine to hypro powered plane.

Hypersonic flights for vehicles, yeah everyone seem to be working on it, the question arises on which fuel those Scramjet work, US, IND, RUSSIA use Hydrocarbon fuel as well as hydrogen fuel, that's one advancement. Hypersonic missiles and at which stage it is hypersonic is more important.

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[Enquirer]

800kms range, that means you can say good buy to all weather Mach 3-2.5 speed.

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On the contrary, they're talking about increasing both the speed & the range simultaneously!!
Obviously advances have been made in the fuel composition since the last few decades when Brahmos missile was originally developed!

 

[Steven Rogers]

On the contrary, they're talking about increasing both the speed & the range simultaneously!!
Obviously advances have been made in the fuel composition since the last few decades when Brahmos missile was originally developed!

Maintain the same Mach 3 speed for 800kms is impossible and if it's, then might need a barage of fuel tank along with it.

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[Enquirer]

Maintain the same Mach 3 speed for 800kms is impossible and if it's, then might need a barage of fuel tank along with it.

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When Brahmos/Yakhont/Onik family of missiles are already designed to fly at Mach 2.5-3 to a distance of 600kms, then I don't see a range extension of 30% to be that big of a deal!!!

 

[Steven Rogers]

When Brahmos/Yakhont/Onik family of missiles are already designed to fly at Mach 2.5-3 to a distance of 600kms, then I don't see a range extension of 30% to be that big of a deal!!!

Diff bw design to fly and actually flying, yeah that can be possible, need to fly at higher altitude than the specified, BrahMos need to cruise at higher altitude, thus exposing to modern Radar and IR devices.

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[Enquirer]

Diff bw design to fly and actually flying, yeah that can be possible, need to fly at higher altitude than the specified, BrahMos need to cruise at higher altitude, thus exposing to modern Radar and IR devices.

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So you mean they were designed to fly that distance but FAILED to do so?? Sounds like some weird speculation!!!

Sure, it'll fly it's initial and mid-course at higher altitudes. No missile/aircraft can fly the nap of the earth at Mach 3 anyways !!!
Brahmos flies low only in the terminal mode (lower in sea skimming mode).

Ground radars won't be able to detect distant objects easily. Brahmos (800kms range) can easily fly high altitude in its initial part undetected; then it can progressively keep lowering its altitude (still flying 1000s of meters above) to remain in the blind spot of the ground radar for a major part its travel!

 

[Steven Rogers]

So you mean they were designed to fly that distance but FAILED to do so?? Sounds like some weird speculation!!!

Sure, it'll fly it's initial and mid-course at higher altitudes. No missile/aircraft can fly the nap of the earth at Mach 3 anyways !!!
Brahmos flies low only in the terminal mode (lower in sea skimming mode).

Ground radars won't be able to detect distant objects easily. Brahmos (800kms range) can easily fly high altitude in its initial part undetected; then it can progressively keep lowering its altitude (still flying 1000s of meters above) to remain in the blind spot of the ground radar for a major part its travel!

For avoiding radars in needed to fly at altitudes which avoid coming the missile in the aperture of the radar which makes impossible to fly 800kms. And at higher altitude ie above than the current 14km cruise altitude, which exposes the missile to IR detectors. BrahMos can't hide neither can sustain Mach 3 if the ranges are extended too 800kms.

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[Enquirer]

For avoiding radars in needed to fly at altitudes which avoid coming the missile in the aperture of the radar which makes impossible to fly 800kms.

Cannot understand what you're saying!!!

And at higher altitude ie above than the current 14km cruise altitude, which exposes the missile to IR detectors. BrahMos can't hide neither can sustain Mach 3 if the ranges are extended too 800kms.

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What is the basis of your claim that Brahmos won't be able to maintain Mach 3 for extended range??
What do you think the scientists will be doing for the next couple of years? If not re-designing and optimizing parts of the missile!
To suggest that even 30% improvement cannot be attained after 30 years of breakthroughs/improvements in science & engineering ( since Brahmos original propulsion was designed) is quite unreasonable!!

Did you even know that the Brahmos is being redesigned to have a composite casing???

 

[Kshithij]

Cannot understand what you're saying!!!


What is the basis of your claim that Brahmos won't be able to maintain Mach 3 for extended range??
What do you think the scientists will be doing for the next couple of years? If not re-designing and optimizing parts of the missile!
To suggest that even 30% improvement cannot be attained after 30 years of breakthroughs/improvements in science & engineering ( since Brahmos original propulsion was designed) is quite unreasonable!!

Did you even know that the Brahmos is being redesigned to have a composite casing???

800km is a bit of a stretch. Even if Brahmos flies high, the height will not be higher than 1km to get rid of air resistance. Composites only work for the casing and not things like motor, booster etc as they require special metal capable of withstanding high heat. Also, the density difference between composite and Aluminum is 1.8g/cm3 vs 2.7g/cm3 - 33% reducton. considering that the casing is not too heavy, the reduction will be minimal.

With high drag, 800km at 3Mach will be difficult unless length and weight of brahmos is increased to carry more fuel