AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Armand2REP]

It has better craftsmanship then the Rafale and more sensors are blended into the airframe compared to Rafale.

Su-57 has bolts sticking out of it and uneven fittings... Rafale is clean.

The difference in build quality is clear.

 

[asianobserve]

Su-57 internal weapons bay, this will lead to a massive radar signature.
View attachment 41669

Aside from the deep channel for Su-57's internal wespons bay between those 2 engines, those poorly fitting weapons bay doors will further increase Su-57's radar signature. Thst's poor workmanship that even even companies_suppliers new to aviation sector will not make for such a prestigious supposedly topdog fighter.

Anyway, that recessed under fuselage is a design cue from 4th gen fighters like F-14, Mig-29 and Su-27, which is not found in current and future flat-bellied 5th gen fighters and future 6th gen preliminary designs.

 

[asianobserve]

Later model (almost no gap where fuel probe is, less rivets and smoother surface):

View attachment 41767

Of course there's no gap in that photo since that is a mere mock-up that Putin showed to Erdo. The lines there are simply paintings.

Interestingly, Erdo who is desperate to have 5th gen fighter is more intrrested in 4th+ gen Su-35 than Su-57. That's a lot of words unsaid there from the Turks....

 

[Neptune]

Story was nice but unlike that car case Russia doesn't start manufacturing of any equipment till the time they receive money. And after receiving money they blackmail india and have many times back out from commitments of contracts and have blackout from providing TOT. For example the case of T-90 tank AL-31FP.

First off, I’m not Indian but my girlfriends father was a high ranking Indian officer that received India’s highest honors and he also was in battle. I know quite a bit of how the armed forces of India operate and their mind set. When he was an office in the army he spoke about corruption and incompetent.

As for your claim Russia was already manufacturing parts for the SU-57 long before India agreed to pay anything. Specifics for TOT is almost never public so you can’t take India’s claims at face value especially when they flip flop and make ridiculous demands.

Let’s not portray India as a victim. They eventually get almost everything they ask for from Russia. India has been given the most advanced technology from both Russia as well as France. India has been allowed to license produce equipment from Russia that no one else has, India has been given the privilege of modifying equipment as well. The problem with India is it agrees to something then people in the Indian Defence circles and bureaucrats change their minds. Good thing Russia was not involved with the Tejas or Arjun otherwise it too would be blamed for all the problems, delays and cost over runs.

Once again you forgot what India has done in the past with the MRCA. With the Rafale deal, with the pal-fa, IL-112 and so fourth. Specifically with the pak-fa India was dragging its feet and while Russia continued progressing with the program, India wanted full access and wanted to dictate to Russia how to build the aircraft when India has no experienced. If Russia capitulated to India the program would have been a mess with Indian demands, it would have turned into another LCA or Arjun fiasco with decades of delay and then Russia would be blamed as usual.

India is a gentleman buyer we respect the OEM ownership rights. ( unlike Russia's new all weather ally which have totally build its own military complex by copying yours)

India may respect TOT but that is besides the point. There is always a chance someone will be recruited to pass on sensitive information but beyond that. We are talking specific agreements, simply put Russia disagreed with India demanding various changes to the aircraft especially when Russia has already invested so much time, money and manpower into the program. Why would Russia take demands from India which has no experience to only delay the program and cause cost overruns?

India wanted to learn a piece from Su-57 program but as program went ahead non of the IAF pilot was allowed to take flights and etc hence it proved that Russians were not interested in joint development hence we left the program ( tho we only paid the price we didn't gain anything neither we got any compensation.).

And there is concrete evidence for these accusations? As for Indian pilots flying the aircraft. Did India formerly join the program? If not why would Russia give the aircraft to an Indian pilot? Russia has a chief test pilot, that was specificity chose by Russia, he knew and studied the aircraft before it even made its first flight, he helped in the developing of the aircraft. It would be very risky giving the aircraft to someone with no experience on it. Those test pilots have years of studying the aircraft before they get to even fly it.

 

[Neptune]

Su-57 has bolts sticking out of it and uneven fittings... Rafale is clean.

They

The difference in build quality is clear.

Besides the IRST the SU-57 the SU-57 has nothing that the Rafale has. some of the electro optic sensors have been removed from certain prototypes as has most of the antennas, more importantly it doesn’t have pylons or weapons dangling around like the Rafale. You can complain about a poor seam on an early pak-fa prototypes but that seam will give off 1000x less RCS then the Rafale’s Pylons or fuel probe, or external weapons or the dozens of other protrusion.

Of course there's no gap in that photo since that is a mere mock-up that Putin showed to Erdo. The lines there are simply paintings.

Interestingly, Erdo who is desperate to have 5th gen fighter is more intrrested in 4th+ gen Su-35 than Su-57. That's a lot of words unsaid there from the Turks....

Ignorance is bliss, even the 054 has the same redesigned fuel probe as the 057 which is much tighter in tolerance then the earlier prototypes. All the later prototypes like 510 and 511 have much tighter seams and less rivets. As for the SU-57 and Turkey, it’s engines are not even ready. Bogdan the chief test pilot of the SU-57 and SU-35 called the SU-57 superior. So if Turkey is impressed by the SU-35 like China was then imagine the SU-57 which Turkey probably was only given minimal information on.

Here is that “gap” which disappeared. The weapons bays are controlled by hydraulic pressure. If it’s too low or hydraulics are not used it will lose pressure. This is the why SU-57 Levcons sag, same with claws or arms from heavy machinery, they begin to sag if if not use. As for the fuselage tunnel, it’s a corner reflector but I would not expect you to know that but guess what, the F-35 DSI present corner reflectors too, the J-20 rear fuselage also has similar tunnels which are corner reflectors, in fact the J-20 has ventral fins that are also corner reflectors. @Aniruddha Mulay @Shashank Nayak @Steven Rogers those bays have a gap because one, hydraulic pressure is low, when, for example, an aircraft is parked LEVCONs and or thrust vector nozzles sag when parked. Secondly it’s was an early prototype, later ones have had tighter tolerances, thirdly the bays look to have a type of dark seal rubber seal similar to the seal around the F-22 canopy. this would make it appear the gap is much larger when in fact it’s not the case.

 

[fire starter]

Besides the IRST the SU-57 the SU-57 has nothing that the Rafale has. some of the electro optic sensors have been removed from certain prototypes as has most of the antennas, more importantly it doesn’t have pylons or weapons dangling around like the Rafale. You can complain about a poor seam on an early pak-fa prototypes but that seam will give off 1000x less RCS then the Rafale’s Pylons or fuel probe, or external weapons or the dozens of other protrusion.

View attachment 41772





Ignorance is bliss, even the 054 has the same redesigned fuel probe as the 057 which is much tighter in tolerance then the earlier prototypes. All the later prototypes like 510 and 511 have much tighter seams and less rivets. As for the SU-57 and Turkey, it’s engines are not even ready. Bogdan the chief test pilot of the SU-57 and SU-35 called the SU-57 superior. So if Turkey is impressed by the SU-35 like China was then imagine the SU-57 which Turkey probably was only given minimal information on.

View attachment 41773




Here is that “gap” which disappeared. The weapons bays are controlled by hydraulic pressure. If it’s too low or hydraulics are not used it will lose pressure. This is the why SU-57 Levcons sag, same with claws or arms from heavy machinery, they begin to sag if if not use. As for the fuselage tunnel, it’s a corner reflector but I would not expect you to know that but guess what, the F-35 DSI present corner reflectors too, the J-20 rear fuselage also has similar tunnels which are corner reflectors, in fact the J-20 has ventral fins that are also corner reflectors. @Aniruddha Mulay @Shashank Nayak @Steven Rogers those bays have a gap because one, hydraulic pressure is low, when, for example, an aircraft is parked LEVCONs and or thrust vector nozzles sag when parked. Secondly it’s was an early prototype, later ones have had tighter tolerances, thirdly the bays look to have a type of dark seal rubber seal similar to the seal around the F-22 canopy. this would make it appear the gap is much larger when in fact it’s not the case.

View attachment 41774

why don't u accept su57 is joke in name stealth .

 

[AnantS]

No matter what you guys think about Su-57 being stealthy or not, I dont know but I feel India will order a token or more of Su-57(akin to Mig 29), once RuAF furthers matures it.

 

[Neptune]

why don't u accept su57 is joke in name stealth .

Why don’t you except you know nothing? Did my explanations go over your head? I have very easily explained away those “gaps” by proving they were caused from the aircraft being stationary and having low hydraulic pressure (example Levcons and nozzles sagging and drooping when aircraft is parked)


It’s comical how people boast of the Rafale having low RCS and then bash the SU-57. Ironically the Rafale has 90 degree corners, exposed refueling probe, pylons, external weapons. On the other hand the SU-57 has canted surfaces, internal weapons, treated and canted canopy, hidden internal refueling probe, etc.


Rafale fanboys will be riled up over this stellar French engineering. Look the size and shape of the hydraulic actuators on the Rafale and compare it to the SU-57. The French actuator is 5x larger and has a 90 degree corner. Must be that the French re-wrote the laws of physics to where a conventional aircraft is now “stealthy”.

Tell me what ignorant Rafale fanboys think is more closely accurate to Rafale? It’s the left picture.

So which aircraft follows to laws of physics? Super stealthy Rafale or SU-57?

Rafale fanboys bashing SU-57 mostly smooth blended airframe and sensors can’t see this:

 

[Bhurki]

No matter what you guys think about Su-57 being stealthy or not, I dont know but I feel India will order a token or more of Su-57(akin to Mig 29), once RuAF furthers matures it.

If that ever happens, then India will be subsidizing russian production.
Russia hasn't even decided to move to serial production before some other country is ready to foot the bill for it.
Thats the reason they are procuring it at such dismal speed. (78 in 9 years)

 

[Bleh]

Take off topics to PAK FA thread, stop derailing this one.

 

[IndianHawk]

. They eventually get almost everything they ask for from Russia. India has been given the most advanced technology from both Russia as well as France. India has been allowed to license produce equipment from Russia that no one else has, India has been given the privilege of modifying equipment as well.

That's because India invested in Russian defense when it was crumbling after fall of USSR. Su30 orders were given without any competition and mki was not even ready. Russia has its dues to pay to India as well.

If Russia capitulated to India the program would have been a mess with Indian demands, it would have turned into another LCA or Arjun fiasco with decades of delay and then Russia would be blamed as usual.

Ya right now it's going pretty well with just 76 build untill 2030. Bravo. Russian are pretty capable of delaying project on their own remember vikramditya delayed for years ! And what happens to mighty armata Tank which was to be in service now in housands??

 

[Neptune]

If that ever happens, then India will be subsidizing russian production.
Russia hasn't even decided to move to serial production before some other country is ready to foot the bill for it.
Thats the reason they are procuring it at such dismal speed. (78 in 9 years)

What? 78 aircraft is not serial production? Tell us what it is then? How can they start serial production but then it’s no serial production?

Just so you are aware. Russia orders aircraft in batches, the SU-34 and SU-35 numbers were also low at one point until more batches were ordered. The SU-57 would also be more difficult to manufacture compared to other Sukhois so those numbers reflect that.

 

[abhay rajput]

The only design in Rafale for stealth is it's S duct inlet. But weapons, fuel probe cancel this advantage, with su57 it's inlet cancel it's stealth. F35/f22 still only stealthy jet. But make no mistake Russians can build better inlets but they still emphasize on raw performance. (They have s duct on tu154).. alas neither Rafale nor su57 is stealthy in its current version.. but even then su57 would still be more stealthy than Rafale.

 

[Neptune]

Ya right now it's going pretty well with just 76 build untill 2030.

Like I said before Russia builds aircraft in batches. You have no way of knowing if they will order more batches.

Bravo. Russian are pretty capable of delaying project on their own remember vikramditya delayed for years ! And what happens to mighty armata Tank which was to be in service now in housands??

Several things played a role, firstly there were extensive T-90 and T-80 upgrade packages that rendered the T-14 as not urgently needed; secondly Russian government officials have a habit of opening their mouths and making stupid claims about procurement. By now you should know everything is ordered in batches for testing before large orders are placed. Cost and complexity is the other factor, the T-14 is not cheap and is more difficult to master. India has been working on the Arjun since dinosaurs roamed earth, much of the components are also foreign, it’s disingenuous for you to single out the T-14 which is an ambitious program where Russia is not getting foreign assistance.

When the government places large order or foreign buyers place order Russia can deliver in large number.

 

[darshan978]

Su-57 has bolts sticking out of it and uneven fittings... Rafale is clean.

The difference in build quality is clear.

Why russian designers didn't even-out those weapon bays with those engine bays
Is bothering be.
Thats where they lost 5th gen tag for su57

 

[Neptune]

The only design in Rafale for stealth is it's S duct inlet. But weapons, fuel probe cancel this advantage, with su57 it's inlet cancel it's stealth. F35/f22 still only stealthy jet. But make no mistake Russians can build better inlets but they still emphasize on raw performance. (They have s duct on tu154).. alas neither Rafale nor su57 is stealthy in its current version.. but even then su57 would still be more stealthy than Rafale.

They have designed a sort of radar blocker for the inlet, moreover, there is still faceting and heavy composite as well as intake ramps that covers part of the intake. Even if there was no radar blocker, faceting or extensive composite material to help absorb EM energy it would still not “cancel it’s stealth”, it would just have a larger frontal RCS, luckily they design the aircraft to have full aspect low RCS.


For instance it’s intakes play zero role in its side or rear RCS, nor does it play a role in other aspect angles

 

[Neptune]

Why russian designers didn't even-out those weapon bays with those engine bays
Is bothering be.
Thats where they lost 5th gen tag for su57

Why don’t you bother reading the thread to get your answer instead of asking what has been answered? Once the aircraft is started and it’s hydraulic systems start working those weapons bays become plush, Levons and everything else that is controlled by hydraulic pressure go into neutral positions. The SU-57 was stalled because India was making unreasonable demands that would have cost long delays and cost over runs not to mention put the aircraft and the program in danger. They even wanted their own chief test pilot which is irrational and a step backwards. The Russian chief test pilot Sergei Bogdan has studied the Pak-Fa before it even flew, he has flow 55 different types of variants of aircraft including the forward swept wing experiment SU-47, he has done carrier landing and even survived crashes. India does not have anyone as qualified as Bogdan but insisted they have their own less qualified test pilot. The Russians would not want to risk handing over such a valuable aircraft to an inexperienced pilot.

 

[AnantS]

If that ever happens, then India will be subsidizing russian production.
Russia hasn't even decided to move to serial production before some other country is ready to foot the bill for it.
Thats the reason they are procuring it at such dismal speed. (78 in 9 years)

That is why I mentioned: once Russia matures it - only then India will procure it.

Why?
Just watch Russia's delays and struggles to get its first stealth plane right and then remember we are going to face same and some more while developing amca. By the time AMCA will be in prototyping stage, Russia would have matured this platform. And IAF would be as usual in panicky mode clamoring for some knee jerk stealth plane purchases for replacing by then 30+ year old Sukhoi. I easily see USA continuing with same perfidious behavior - making India vary of JSF. While French German Stealth plane (if they manage to continue without splitting ) and UK's Tempest still would be bit far of from being in production assembly stage. I dont see many choices for IAF at that time

 

[IndianHawk]

India does not have anyone as qualified as Bogdan but insisted they have their own less qualified test pilot.

Lol this is new one. How many flight hours this bogdon has which Indians can't match.

Anyway su57 crashed recently probably because it was not flown by bogdon ! Lol or was it lmao.

 

[Bhurki]

The batch for everything but Su35 and token Mig 35 (involving 2 units and no more unless other country orders) have ended.
Those Su34 were last jets out of 92 ordered in 2012
The reason i was expecting larger Su57 is because thats the only jet they'll have in production 2 years from now.