AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

vampyrbladez

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It's so good that Turkey would rather buy SU-35 despite Putin personally marketing to Erdo SU-57... It's so good that even the IAF got out of the program. I mean Algeria is its first foreign customer to be followed by Myanmar... those are illustrious air forces. China only ordered Su-35 despite Su-57 being available...

The Russia Air Force itself is ordering 98 Su-35s but it's only ordering 78 Su-57. The only explanation here is that overall Su-57 is at par or only marginally better than older generation SU-35.
The main issue of contention is the development of the Item 30 engines which were not done concurrently. Now Russia has sped up development and by 2026 - 27, we will have an MKI variant available.
 

IndianHawk

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In development of jets they may be behind but I am sure they are ahead of us in drone development. Their drones like Anka and Baryakhtar are already operational.
Yes we dropped the ball on drones perhaps easy import of Israel's drones made us complacent.

But the point stands to make manned systems is far more difficult . More importantly turkey is a small economy it won't be able to absorb the expense of any true technological leap . Even Britain France aren't going alone for stealth planes. It is that costly .
 

IndianHawk

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The main issue of contention is the development of the Item 30 engines which were not done concurrently. Now Russia has sped up development and by 2026 - 27, we will have an MKI variant available.
Item 30 was one issue. Second issue was rcs which is much bigger than what iaf desires. Third issue was work share which Russia was trying to minimize . Fourth issue was lack of access , iaf wasn't allowed to inspect prototype which caught fire.

Even if su30 comes with item 30 by 2027 it still doesn't change its RCS . And mki version will take 3-4 years to develop. By then amca will start entering serial production.

Russians have screwed this one up. The train has left the station .
 

vampyrbladez

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Item 30 was one issue. Second issue was rcs which is much bigger than what iaf desires. Third issue was work share which Russia was trying to minimize . Fourth issue was lack of access , iaf wasn't allowed to inspect prototype which caught fire.

Even if su30 comes with item 30 by 2027 it still doesn't change its RCS . And mki version will take 3-4 years to develop. By then amca will start entering serial production.

Russians have screwed this one up. The train has left the station .
MKI version will arrive by 2026 - 27 and the plane is designed as "anti stealth" as can be seen by the L Band AESA and rest of it's sensor suit. However the issue is confined to work-share and ToT which Russia will not give up at any cost. If we buy none then Russia blackmails us in spare parts and ammo department of our existing fighters. We need a pragmatic solution like the AK 203 deal to act as pacifier for them so that AMCA doesn't get affected by lobby and is inducted for most of our fleet numbers.
 

IndianHawk

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MKI version will arrive by 2026 - 27 and the plane is designed as "anti stealth" as can be seen by the L Band AESA and rest of it's sensor suit. However the issue is confined to work-share and ToT which Russia will not give up at any cost. If we buy none then Russia blackmails us in spare parts and ammo department of our existing fighters. We need a pragmatic solution like the AK 203 deal to act as pacifier for them so that AMCA doesn't get affected by lobby and is inducted for most of our fleet numbers.
How will mki su57 arrive by 2026?? IAF won't touch su57 untill item30 is operationalized and then mki specs have to be decided and designed. It took 4 -5 years for su30 to become su30 mki!
And even if it comes at 2030 amca will start arriving at 2029-30!

Regarding russian blackmail our economy is two times larger than Russia and growing much much faster than Russia. Russian if use blackmail will only loose further exports as blackmails aren't taken very well in defence planning.

Russian will continue to get new orders for their contributions in our nuke submarine and other programs like s400 , lease of akula etc. But the products must be up to Indian requirements and su57 is not.
 

vampyrbladez

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How will mki su57 arrive by 2026?? IAF won't touch su57 untill item30 is operationalized and then mki specs have to be decided and designed. It took 4 -5 years for su30 to become su30 mki!
And even if it comes at 2030 amca will start arriving at 2029-30!

Regarding russian blackmail our economy is two times larger than Russia and growing much much faster than Russia. Russian if use blackmail will only loose further exports as blackmails aren't taken very well in defence planning.

Russian will continue to get new orders for their contributions in our nuke submarine and other programs like s400 , lease of akula etc. But the products must be up to Indian requirements and su57 is not.
1. Item 30 is already flying on certain prototypes. By 2024-ish it will be certified. IAF inducts first example by 2026-27 like the initial batch of Su 30M that were bought.

2. Russia has clout via spares/system upgrades and our reverse engineering skills are not as high as China. As time goes gap will decrease but might still be there.

3. Su 57 is to IAF what AK 203 is to IA. We an do without it but Russian tantrums to sell weapons to Pakistan and China along with slowing delivery of big ticket purchases is a headache we have to deal with.

IA could have simply bought the Trichy Assault Rifle with in-house upgrades but the Russians wanted a long term order. Similarly this is to assuage them in the case of the IAF.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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1. Item 30 is already flying on certain prototypes. By 2024-ish it will be certified. IAF inducts first example by 2026-27 like the initial batch of Su 30M that were bought.

2. Russia has clout via spares/system upgrades and our reverse engineering skills are not as high as China. As time goes gap will decrease but might still be there.

3. Su 57 is to IAF what AK 203 is to IA. We an do without it but Russian tantrums to sell weapons to Pakistan and China along with slowing delivery of big ticket purchases is a headache we have to deal with.

IA could have simply bought the Trichy Assault Rifle with in-house upgrades but the Russians wanted a long term order. Similarly this is to assuage them in the case of the IAF.
Su-57 internal weapons bay, this will lead to a massive radar signature.
IMG_20200115_230229.jpg
 

IndianHawk

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. Su 57 is to IAF what AK 203 is to IA. We an do without it but Russian tantrums to sell weapons to Pakistan and China along with slowing delivery of big ticket purchases is a headache we have to deal with.
There are other common interest . We can buy more oil from Russia or more investment in Siberia. Or more s400 or maybe s500 along with bramhos 2 and sfdr based aam. There are a lot of things to go for to maintain deep partnership even without su57.
 

vampyrbladez

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There are other common interest . We can buy more oil from Russia or more investment in Siberia. Or more s400 or maybe s500 along with bramhos 2 and sfdr based aam. There are a lot of things to go for to maintain deep partnership even without su57.
You don't know the Russians then...........................
 

Armand2REP

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sro is great..........

What do you guy's think about how it can be evolved for airforce purposes?.
It is an L-band radar used for tracking objects in space. There would be a long way to go before it would be useful for detecting objects at low altitude. Once you start tracking things in the troposphere the amount of clutter makes it difficult for a low frequency radar to discriminate targets. You would either need an advanced tracking algorithm or turn it into a high powered X band that can cut through it.
 

Neptune

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That is how it looks close-up. The design was not done with tight tolerances. This is one of the sloppiest fighters I have ever seen produced. When the Indian delegation did a close-up inspection, that was all they needed to walk away from that project.

This is wrong, the early prototypes were rough in nature because they were prototypes. They had more loser tolerances and more rivets then the newer prototypes. No machining was set up for the prototypes and large composite skin was still not ready.


Early prototype (pay attention to the gap where the fuel probe is):

B8E03295-6758-4D2F-B4E7-44820F477231.jpeg



Later model (almost no gap where fuel probe is, less rivets and smoother surface):

1E07111A-9642-4DFE-9002-1A6A9214B399.jpeg




It has better craftsmanship then the Rafale and more sensors are blended into the airframe compared to Rafale.



How will mki su57 arrive by 2026?? IAF won't touch su57 untill item30 is operationalized and then mki specs have to be decided and designed. It took 4 -5 years for su30 to become su30 mki!
And even if it comes at 2030 amca will start arriving at 2029-30!

Regarding russian blackmail our economy is two times larger than Russia and growing much much faster than Russia. Russian if use blackmail will only loose further exports as blackmails aren't taken very well in defence planning.

Russian will continue to get new orders for their contributions in our nuke submarine and other programs like s400 , lease of akula etc. But the products must be up to Indian requirements and su57 is not.

What blackmail? India was offered to participate but as usual it’s messy short sighted bureaucrats and HAL interjected. No one forced India to purchase the SU-57 and after India backed down Russia was unfazed.

You forget how HAl/India foolishly backed out of the IL-112 program too, you forgot the fiasco with the MRCA India caused, you forget the headaches India gave to France with the Rafale, constantly changing orders, complained about everything and then unprofessionally going public with complaints.

Perhaps, Russia and France did some things that India did not like, but India is not innocents by any stretch. India is one of the most difficult countries to work with. They demand unrealistic participation in projects that they have no experience in, they agree to terms then later do a 180 and then complain to media, they sign memorandums of understandings and agree to certain terms then later tear up contracts and demand completely different terms.

The people working at HAL/Indian bureaucrats remind me of ‘tire kickers’ that go to buy a car. They see a car they like, they meticulously look it over, start kicking the tires and asking many questions, then they agree it’s nice and tell the owner they will buy the car but they have to go to the bank first. Days pass and the buyer keep stalling asking more questions about the cars history and maintenance records, then the buyer comes but then wants the car cheaper, the buyer then demands some extras like better tires and payed satellite radio subscription. The owner objects to the terms and argues that was not part of the deal. The Indian buyer then refuses to pay what he agreed upon and then goes online to find the car seller and leaves negative comments about the car.




Su-57 internal weapons bay, this will lead to a massive radar signature.
View attachment 41669


Like I explained before, the early prototypes were rough because no production line was established, no dedicated machining tool were ready yet and large composite skins were still being developed.


Just for comparison, up close high definition photos are unflattering (pay attention to the cracks and rivets around the canopy):

60832258-9EF5-4421-9585-3CCEE2A36BA0.jpeg



Rafale has exposed latches, antennas, fuel probe and very rough rivets or bolts in some areas:

B85EDE92-B9E2-4E05-AA53-9BFA56933F8A.jpeg


F0F9EF99-EC3B-473F-9BC2-FB47F9FF47A3.jpeg
 

Assassin 2.0

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The Indian buyer then refuses to pay what he agreed upon and then goes online to find the car seller and leaves negative comments about the car.
Story was nice but unlike that car case Russia doesn't start manufacturing of any equipment till the time they receive money. And after receiving money they blackmail india and have many times back out from commitments of contracts and have blackout from providing TOT. For example the case of T-90 tank AL-31FP. Spare part issues of IAF IL-76 must have forced IAF to rethink about getting Russian platform when airbus and boeing are providing much more efficient workhorse.

India is a gentleman buyer we respect the OEM ownership rights. ( unlike Russia's new all weather ally which have totally build its own military complex by copying yours)

India wanted to learn a piece from Su-57 program but as program went ahead non of the IAF pilot was allowed to take flights and etc hence it proved that Russians were not interested in joint development hence we left the program ( tho we only paid the price we didn't gain anything neither we got any compensation.)
 

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