AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[FactsPlease]

It is apparent India needs to buy an IL-76 for its own testing purposes. Since Russia is unwilling to lease one...

It's the 2nd time you said about this. Appreciate if some source and links can be provided - I tried to search myself but unable to find any...

 

[Vijyes]

I am a strong supporter for this project....but the project is getting mishandled just like the LCA. I wanted the navy to lead this project instead of the airforce and I would like to see 2 versions namely a single engine version and a double engine version of the AMCA.

AMCA will be twin engine as it has to be heavy and India doesn't want to develop complex engines like F35 but wants an engine which is simpler at 90-110kN thrust.

I am not particularly excited by AMCA. As it will be repeat of Arjun/LCA saga. Why? Where is the urgency to invest in establishing Gas Turbine facilities? Where is the Engine Flying Test bed? Tamilmani himself earlier stated that if the decision is taken now it will take 10000 crores of investment and 10 years of development time(which seems a very optimistic time frame given India is no France/Russia in terms of engine development capability & experience). I am miffed by ADA/GTRE, because when Manohar Parrikar was Defence Minister why they did not lobby hard for establishing more complete testing facilities? Even if france comes, GTRE will have ti still grapple with question of Flying Engine Test Bed.

US developed F22 in 1989. Are we that behind that we can't catch up even after 35 years? I don't think so. The so called state of the art is an absurd concept. The reality is that congress was being controlled by ISI and hence stalled several projects by cutting funds and forcing army and air force to change specifications every now and then.

If France comes to help in Kaveri engine. and Kaveri even runs upto 90kN, twin engine AMCA can be made. Test bed is needed only for developing new engines. If France comes up with Kaveri, India is only going to upgrade it to K10 version with 100-110kN thrust and leave it there. Test bed won't be necessary. Developing RAM is not an issue as with or without RAM, plane will fly and anyone can coat it with RAM paint anytime later. It is not necessary to do everything immediately. What matters is if the avionics, engine and airframe is developed. Even the avionics to some extent can be retrofitted. Even MiG21 can be coated with RAM, but that won't make it 5th generation! If that would have been the case, all the planes would be 5th generation.

I see no reason to say AMCA first flight can't take place by 2022. By 2022, Tejas Mk2 is also set to be completed and sent for trial runs. AMCA is set to be completed by 2027 (10 years from now) which appears to be reasonable considering experience of Tejas.

Engine development of Russia or France is not magical to say that despite India being able to get a 78-81kN thrust engine, India is so backward and won't be able to complete the engine in 10 years. France got their engine before 1990. Since engine technology hasn't advanced much, I don't understand why one has to be sceptical. India has access to foreign engines and has written the FADEC code in F404 engines by itself as it did not trust someone else (GE) of having the codes (software is our strong point too). India can also reverse engineer many things except for a few alloys and critical technology which it can develop considering the expertise is at level of France in 1980-90 (30-35 years lag). It would take India about 10 years to fully develop its K10 engine on its own from now or about 6-7 years with french assistance in Kaveri K9 engine.

France is not foolish to just give away the engine technology to India if India was not advanced enough. French is merely speeding up Indian engines by 3-4 years in return for a Rafale deal of about 100-150 rafales and additional 1 billion euro worth consultancy.

The incompetency of Tejas and Kaveri development is due to Congress being an ISI and Saudi funded party rather than real incompetency of scientists. One should not read into it as a failure of PSUs but foolishness of voting Congress for 60 years

 

[TPFscopes]

AMCA will be twin engine as it has to be heavy and India doesn't want to develop complex engines like F35 but wants an engine which is simpler at 90-110kN thrust.

AMCA will not be Heavy jet.
AMCA is aimed at Medium weight category.

 

[pmaitra]

It is apparent India needs to buy an IL-76 for its own testing purposes. Since Russia is unwilling to lease one...

It's the 2nd time you said about this. Appreciate if some source and links can be provided - I tried to search myself but unable to find any...

He is just making things up. India has been operating the Ilyushin-76 for many years now. Also, HAL can very well modify an Ilyushin-76 as a testbed (like the Ilyushin-76LL used by Gromov), just like they added an extra jet to the IAF Fairchild C-119 Flying Boxcar (incorrectly referred to as the Fairchild C-82 Packet in some other sources) so that it could take off from Daulat-beg-Oldi.

 

[Kchontha]

He is just making things up. India has been operating the Ilyushin-76 for many years now. Also, HAL can very well modify an Ilyushin-76 as a testbed (like the Ilyushin-76LL used by Gromov), just like they added an extra jet to the IAF Fairchild C-119 Flying Boxcar (incorrectly referred to as the Fairchild C-82 Packet in some other sources) so that it could take off from Daulat-beg-Oldi.

View attachment 16707

Without Russia permission can HAL modify Illushin 76 as a testbed?

 

[Aghore_King]

Here's a photo of modified jet plane with Kaveri engine.

 

[pmaitra]

Without Russia permission can HAL modify Illushin 76 as a testbed?

I don't know from the legal standpoint. In the worst case, warranty will be voided.

When it comes to capability, yes, HAL can do it.

Edited to add: We don't know whether India has asked for permission or what the contracts are regarding the IAF Ilyushin-76s. Secondly, we have no information, except for an unsupported claim, whether Russia has denied permission. So, it is all speculation.

View attachment 16709
Here's a photo of modified jet plane with Kaveri engine.

Thanks for sharing. Here is a very old post on this: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/kaveri-engine.5097/page-13#post-199516

 

[Vijyes]

AMCA will not be Heavy jet.
AMCA is aimed at Medium weight category.

AMCA is medium weight category but is still in the heavier range. There is limited differences between heavy and medium weight planes

 

[TPFscopes]

AMCA is medium weight category but is still in the heavier range. There is limited differences between heavy and medium weight planes

There is also very less difference between light and medium category.
For Comparison: AMCA is medium whereas PAK-FA is heavy

 

[Vijyes]

There is also very less difference between light and medium category.
For Comparison: AMCA is medium whereas PAK-FA is heavy

AMCA and PAK-FA weight differences is 20-30% while that of Tejas to AMCA is 100%. That is the difference I am speaking of. There is little difference between heavy and medium jets except for a few extra bomb carrying capacity at the expense of stealth (due to larger size)

 

[TPFscopes]

AMCA and PAK-FA weight differences is 20-30% while that of Tejas to AMCA is 100%. That is the difference I am speaking of. There is little difference between heavy and medium jets except for a few extra bomb carrying capacity at the expense of stealth (due to larger size)

LCA is the lightest in its category.
It's not a fair comparison.
Let's have some more comparison of empty weight
GRIPEN: 7.1 Ton approx
AMCA : 14 Ton Approx
F-22: 19.8 ton & j-20 : 18.9 ton

 

[no smoking]

I don't know from the legal standpoint. In the worst case, warranty will be voided.

When it comes to capability, yes, HAL can do it.

Edited to add: We don't know whether India has asked for permission or what the contracts are regarding the IAF Ilyushin-76s. Secondly, we have no information, except for an unsupported claim, whether Russia has denied permission. So, it is all speculation.

Thanks for sharing. Here is a very old post on this: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/kaveri-engine.5097/page-13#post-199516

You don't need the permission from Russia for that, you can do whatever you want with that particular plane.
After all, you have 100% ownership of that plane.
But, if you change the plane without their permission, they are no longer responsible for the any faults of this plane in the future.

 

[pmaitra]

You don't need the permission from Russia for that, you can do whatever you want with that particular plane.
After all, you have 100% ownership of that plane.
But, if you change the plane without their permission, they are no longer responsible for the any faults of this plane in the future.

Yes, you are correct. I should have clarified that. That one particular plane belongs to us, and we can do whatever we want with it. Only the warranty, if any, for that one plane, would be voided.

 

[Prashant12]

Airframe of AMCA




AMCA is envisioned to use carbon-fibre composites (C-FC), and titanium alloy steels for airframe construction. C-FC materials will be used in 80% of airframe by weight. It will also be used in the fuselage (skins and doors ), wings (ribs , skin, and spars), tailfin, elevons, rudder, air brakes and landing gear doors. The advantage of using composite materials is that it makes an airframe lighter and stronger at the same time compared to an all-metal design. AMCA is supposed to employ the highest percentage of composite materials for any other aircraft. Employment of composite materials helps in the fact that there are fewer joints and rivets, which increases the aircraft’s reliability and lowers its susceptibility to ural fatigue cracks in its structure with the majority of these being bismaleimide (BMI) and composite epoxy material. AMCA will also use structural nanocomposites, namely carbon nanotube reinforced epoxy. Stressed ducts in S-shape are rivetted with airframe with the loaded bulkheads constructed off composite materials spanning the aircraft from air intake to engine shafts.

http://thestrategictimes.com/airframe-of-amca/

 

[pmaitra]

I would be interested to learn more about how much India has progressed when it comes to Titanium alloys. If anyone has information, please share.

 

[prananjai]

I would be interested to learn more about how much India has progressed when it comes to Titanium alloys. If anyone has information, please share.

Listen at 31:22.We are at certification stage.

 

[pmaitra]

Listen at 31:22.We are at certification stage.

Good find. Appreciate you posting this. Looks like you do a lot of research. Thank you Sir.

 

[Filtercoffee]

All HAL fixed winged aircraft have to be with 360 degrees thrust vector control for extreme maneuverability.

 

[scatterStorm]

Airframe of AMCA




AMCA is envisioned to use carbon-fibre composites (C-FC), and titanium alloy steels for airframe construction. C-FC materials will be used in 80% of airframe by weight. It will also be used in the fuselage (skins and doors ), wings (ribs , skin, and spars), tailfin, elevons, rudder, air brakes and landing gear doors. The advantage of using composite materials is that it makes an airframe lighter and stronger at the same time compared to an all-metal design. AMCA is supposed to employ the highest percentage of composite materials for any other aircraft. Employment of composite materials helps in the fact that there are fewer joints and rivets, which increases the aircraft’s reliability and lowers its susceptibility to ural fatigue cracks in its structure with the majority of these being bismaleimide (BMI) and composite epoxy material. AMCA will also use structural nanocomposites, namely carbon nanotube reinforced epoxy. Stressed ducts in S-shape are rivetted with airframe with the loaded bulkheads constructed off composite materials spanning the aircraft from air intake to engine shafts.

http://thestrategictimes.com/airframe-of-amca/

This is great news, further I would like to add that the structure closely resembles that of an F22 Raptor, which is interesting as this would mean our AMCA airframe has been deeply studied to match closely as that of F22s. This also means that computational technology is heavily utilized to construct smooth curved surfaces all thanks to composites that will provide such smoothness.

Any news about conformal embedded antennas and sensors on entire surface of our AMCA? As this is the quite complex to do.

 

[FergisNahk]

This is great news, further I would like to add that the structure closely resembles that of an F22 Raptor, which is interesting as this would mean our AMCA airframe has been deeply studied to match closely as that of F22s. This also means that computational technology is heavily utilized to construct smooth curved surfaces all thanks to composites that will provide such smoothness.

Any news about conformal embedded antennas and sensors on entire surface of our AMCA? As this is the quite complex to do.

Our computational capabilities and composite research have much contributed. It's a learning and developing a complete insight altogether into next-gen flying platform capabilities. Prototypes will be starting to roll out for taxi-tests by 2020.

On sensors - Few protruding sensors which are integrated and are insignificant in radar detection - Wiki
The electronic warfare system [135] providing sensor fusion of radio frequency and infrared tracking functions, advanced radar warning receiver including geolocation targeting of threats, multispectral image countermeasures for self-defense against missiles, situational awareness and electronic surveillance, employing 10 radio frequency antennae embedded into the edges of the wing and tail. Six additional active infrared sensors are distributed over the aircraft as part of an electro-optical Distributed Aperture System (DAS), which acts as a missile warning system, reports missile launch locations, detects and tracks approaching aircraft spherically around the AMCA and replaces traditional night vision devices. All DAS functions are performed simultaneously, in every direction, at all times. To enable the AMCA to perform in the air supremacy role, it includes several passive sensor systems. The front-sector Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS), developed by DLRL, is completely integrated within the aircraft and can operate both in the visible and infrared wavelengths. The EOTS enables the deployment of infrared missiles such as MICA at beyond visual range distances; it can also be used for detecting and identifying airborne targets, as well as those on the ground and at sea. The EOTS is immune to jamming and capable of providing covert long-range surveillance. An onboard condition monitoring system is used in AMCA.[136]