AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[scatterStorm]

Our computational capabilities and composite research have much contributed. It's a learning and developing a complete insight altogether into next-gen flying platform capabilities. Prototypes will be starting to roll out for taxi-tests by 2020.

On sensors - Few protruding sensors which are integrated and are insignificant in radar detection - Wiki
The electronic warfare system [135] providing sensor fusion of radio frequency and infrared tracking functions, advanced radar warning receiver including geolocation targeting of threats, multispectral image countermeasures for self-defense against missiles, situational awareness and electronic surveillance, employing 10 radio frequency antennae embedded into the edges of the wing and tail. Six additional active infrared sensors are distributed over the aircraft as part of an electro-optical Distributed Aperture System (DAS), which acts as a missile warning system, reports missile launch locations, detects and tracks approaching aircraft spherically around the AMCA and replaces traditional night vision devices. All DAS functions are performed simultaneously, in every direction, at all times. To enable the AMCA to perform in the air supremacy role, it includes several passive sensor systems. The front-sector Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS), developed by DLRL, is completely integrated within the aircraft and can operate both in the visible and infrared wavelengths. The EOTS enables the deployment of infrared missiles such as MICA at beyond visual range distances; it can also be used for detecting and identifying airborne targets, as well as those on the ground and at sea. The EOTS is immune to jamming and capable of providing covert long-range surveillance. An onboard condition monitoring system is used in AMCA.[136]

Wait so the airframe is a mix of F22s and YF23s, sensor fusion and ECM, DAS and EOTS ... sounds like F35 to me. This is going to be tough for us, I mean Russian SU50 doesn't have smooth surfaces, it's concealed Weapon Bay Doors (WBD) have gaps, quite visible in photos. This whole things sounds too good to be true I mean.

 

[Vijyes]

Wait so the airframe is a mix of F22s and YF23s, sensor fusion and ECM, DAS and EOTS ... sounds like F35 to me. This is going to be tough for us, I mean Russian SU50 doesn't have smooth surfaces, it's concealed Weapon Bay Doors (WBD) have gaps, quite visible in photos. This whole things sounds too good to be true I mean.

Nothing is 100% perfect. But there will be a try to be as perfect as possible. India has access to lot of western technology and can reverse engineer unlike China or Russia. F35 is heavy for the engine whereas amca has 2 engine and higher thrust & speed. There is big difference between amca and f35

 

[no smoking]

This is great news, further I would like to add that the structure closely resembles that of an F22 Raptor, which is interesting as this would mean our AMCA airframe has been deeply studied to match closely as that of F22s.

That is only a testing model built for the research of stealth only. The final AMCA outlook will be completely different because all the sub-systems you can acquire or develop for AMCA will be different from those American products: size, weight, material, tech parameters. All these will deeply impact your overall design.

This also means that computational technology is heavily utilized to construct smooth curved surfaces all thanks to composites that will provide such smoothness.
Any news about conformal embedded antennas and sensors on entire surface of our AMCA? As this is the quite complex to do.

No, again, that is only a test model meaning nothing. In the showroom of any plane manufacturer, you can see quite a lot fantasy models, most of them never entered into production stage because the industrial capability is lagging behind the brain of designers.

Until the first prototype of AMCA comes out, you won't know how the surface would look like.

 

[Pulkit]

That is only a testing model built for the research of stealth only. The final AMCA outlook will be completely different because all the sub-systems you can acquire or develop for AMCA will be different from those American products: size, weight, material, tech parameters. All these will deeply impact your overall design.

Is it not the other way round? The design and shape has to be aerodynamic in nature and for stealth we need smooth edges and absorbing material(deflectors or absorbers) The design is fixed upfront and then other parts are made to adjust. While designing we do go Inside out but outer boundary is pre defined. We might need to change design based on some major parts but we do try and fit the part in the desired boundary.

No, again, that is only a test model meaning nothing. In the showroom of any plane manufacturer, you can see quite a lot fantasy models, most of them never entered into production stage because the industrial capability is lagging behind the brain of designers.

Until the first prototype of AMCA comes out, you won't know how the surface would look like.

Yes I agree with you here.

 

[smestarz]

And again in many cases, as in case of F-22 the prototype was much different than production model

That is only a testing model built for the research of stealth only. The final AMCA outlook will be completely different because all the sub-systems you can acquire or develop for AMCA will be different from those American products: size, weight, material, tech parameters. All these will deeply impact your overall design.



No, again, that is only a test model meaning nothing. In the showroom of any plane manufacturer, you can see quite a lot fantasy models, most of them never entered into production stage because the industrial capability is lagging behind the brain of designers.

Until the first prototype of AMCA comes out, you won't know how the surface would look like.

 

[FergisNahk]

Wait so the airframe is a mix of F22s and YF23s, sensor fusion and ECM, DAS and EOTS ... sounds like F35 to me. This is going to be tough for us, I mean Russian SU50 doesn't have smooth surfaces, it's concealed Weapon Bay Doors (WBD) have gaps, quite visible in photos. This whole things sounds too good to be true I mean.

Everything sounds so good to be true - F-35 to SU-35 In a conflict, final outcome is based on who makes the move and how much of global diplomatic support can be gathered behind the curtains.

Stealth is somewhat again a relative term - so much of ways to make the platform invisible or difficult to track to varying different kinds of sensors, which is at times unique to each product (Rafale's spectra helps it achieve stealth in varying ways while Mig does it through electronics and slanted surfaces and F-35 with extensive fibre-mat etc). The end product will look different from the drawings and prototypes - but the sheer similarity that you see in between F-22 and AMCA is majorly an imagination caused by the commonality factor in fighter design kinetics and principles.

 

[no smoking]

Is it not the other way round? The design and shape has to be aerodynamic in nature and for stealth we need smooth edges and absorbing material(deflectors or absorbers) The design is fixed upfront and then other parts are made to adjust. While designing we do go Inside out but outer boundary is pre defined.

No.

At the beginning of design stage, the first thing to lay down is the tactic requirements of this plane, in other words, what kind of jet that air force wants and when they want. Then designer will start consulting with related industrial departments: what kind of product they can provide in certain period of time.


For example, in order to supersonic cruising, you need a F119 level engine in 15 years, can your engine manufacture do that? If the answer is no, then you have 3 options:

1. Go back to airforce asking to remove this requirement;

2. Come up with an aerodynamic design can help the jet to realise the target with a weaker engine;

3. Check if you can get such an engine from overseas.


Another example is your radar wave absorb material: if your material depart tells you that they will be able to provide a material superior to that of F22 on stealth. Then you realise that you can lower down the requirement on the stealth shape to reach the same level of RCS. As a result, you can choose another aerodynamic design which was given up as it contradicts the stealth.


There are only 2 examples that tell you how your potential available sub-systems will affect your initial design.

We might need to change design based on some major parts but we do try and fit the part in the desired boundary.

That is why you get so much delay: modern fighter is a comprehensive system integrated with thousands of sub-systems, change one part of design will impact another part, going on and on, in worst case, you may have to re-design the whole plane.


Adjusting the parts in question is not easy either. For some simple and mature parts, you can. For other complex and cut-edge parts, you have to either wait their next breakthrough (may take years), or replace an inferior product.

 

[SanjeevM]

No.

At the beginning of design stage, the first thing to lay down is the tactic requirements of this plane, in other words, what kind of jet that air force wants and when they want. Then designer will start consulting with related industrial departments: what kind of product they can provide in certain period of time.


For example, in order to supersonic cruising, you need a F119 level engine in 15 years, can your engine manufacture do that? If the answer is no, then you have 3 options:

1. Go back to airforce asking to remove this requirement;

2. Come up with an aerodynamic design can help the jet to realise the target with a weaker engine;

3. Check if you can get such an engine from overseas.


Another example is your radar wave absorb material: if your material depart tells you that they will be able to provide a material superior to that of F22 on stealth. Then you realise that you can lower down the requirement on the stealth shape to reach the same level of RCS. As a result, you can choose another aerodynamic design which was given up as it contradicts the stealth.


There are only 2 examples that tell you how your potential available sub-systems will affect your initial design.





That is why you get so much delay: modern fighter is a comprehensive system integrated with thousands of sub-systems, change one part of design will impact another part, going on and on, in worst case, you may have to re-design the whole plane.


Adjusting the parts in question is not easy either. For some simple and mature parts, you can. For other complex and cut-edge parts, you have to either wait their next breakthrough (may take years), or replace an inferior product.

Very well explained. Thanks........

 

[Pulkit]

No.

At the beginning of design stage, the first thing to lay down is the tactic requirements of this plane, in other words, what kind of jet that air force wants and when they want. Then designer will start consulting with related industrial departments: what kind of product they can provide in certain period of time.

I have designed a section of commercial aircraft while working in aero domain and we used to have the dimensions of Skin(Panel) before even we start designing the Parts.Frames and Stringers which form the Skin are designed based on those dimensions only. Assemblies Sub assemblies Clip, Clip Stabilizers , Stabilizers are decided and designed based on the same arrangement.The engine was the one major component which had impact on our design as we have to figure out Stress and load due to it on wings. Yes we do check what is available in the market and based on it design the aircraft.

For example, in order to supersonic cruising, you need a F119 level engine in 15 years, can your engine manufacture do that? If the answer is no, then you have 3 options:

1. Go back to airforce asking to remove this requirement;

2. Come up with an aerodynamic design can help the jet to realise the target with a weaker engine;

3. Check if you can get such an engine from overseas.

Agreed on this

Another example is your radar wave absorb material: if your material depart tells you that they will be able to provide a material superior to that of F22 on stealth. Then you realise that you can lower down the requirement on the stealth shape to reach the same level of RCS. As a result, you can choose another aerodynamic design which was given up as it contradicts the stealth.

See here is a thing, I read that the HAL wanted a RADAR which can fit in Tejas and so does the engine which can be fit they were ready to make modifications to fit them but that did not change the design. As per my information, knowledge and exp i can tell you that Shape and Design of the outer body is the most important.If the Aircraft is not aerodynamic enough even with the best of aircraft it will not be successful.Drag is a very major variable here . Our first aim as designers is to to keep the drag to minimal and the next aim is to Keep the weight low.

There are only 2 examples that tell you how your potential available sub-systems will affect your initial design.

I have answered that above. We look for systems and subsystems which we can fit. If we are developing any we give them size and dimensions. Kaveri was designed as per the aircraft requirements not the other way round.

That is why you get so much delay: modern fighter is a comprehensive system integrated with thousands of sub-systems, change one part of design will impact another part, going on and on, in worst case, you may have to re-design the whole plane.

Changing one part does have a impact but what is the severity of the part matters.There can be many interchangeable parts which will have no impact. Change in requirements have impact and if there is a major part changed then it has to go through the entire process of regerous testing.If i change design of clip or stabilizer it might not have alot of impact but If I change the frame or stringer size it will have a great impact.

Adjusting the parts in question is not easy either. For some simple and mature parts, you can. For other complex and cut-edge parts, you have to either wait their next breakthrough (may take years), or replace an inferior product.

Its is mostly about fitting them.In tejas they were able to fit everything in it which made it a nightmare for the people servicing it(as i recall).

 

[scatterStorm]

That is only a testing model built for the research of stealth only. The final AMCA outlook will be completely different because all the sub-systems you can acquire or develop for AMCA will be different from those American products: size, weight, material, tech parameters. All these will deeply impact your overall design.



No, again, that is only a test model meaning nothing. In the showroom of any plane manufacturer, you can see quite a lot fantasy models, most of them never entered into production stage because the industrial capability is lagging behind the brain of designers.

Until the first prototype of AMCA comes out, you won't know how the surface would look like.

Quite true, considering US aviation tech giants like Lockheed and Boeing have 3D printers that can print large composite parts. Those Industrial very Large 3D printers give the ability to paint it into smooth surfaces with RAM coatings.

We Indians need to create our own 3D printers if we are talking to churn out jet on there scale. Lot's of manufacturing tech and efforts would be needed to be poured in, especially skilled engineers.

 

[Butter Chicken]

Quite true, considering US aviation tech giants like Lockheed and Boeing have 3D printers that can print large composite parts. Those Industrial very Large 3D printers give the ability to paint it into smooth surfaces with RAM coatings.

We Indians need to create our own 3D printers if we are talking to churn out jet on there scale. Lot's of manufacturing tech and efforts would be needed to be poured in, especially skilled engineers.

General Electric has a 3D printing facility in Pune,top of the line facility.

 

[no smoking]

See here is a thing, I read that the HAL wanted a RADAR which can fit in Tejas and so does the engine which can be fit they were ready to make modifications to fit them but that did not change the design.

Because lucky for Tejas, the replacements were mature and superior comparing the original systems. The new radar/engine are better and smaller (or same size), of course there won't be much trouble to fit them in. Besides, these replacements were coming from foreign vendors. These companies have enough experience and new technologies (already used in their new products) to change their old products based on the requirement of HAL.

But what if your replacement is bigger? Just like Chinese J10, when the designer found the promised Chinese engine was nowhere close to the end and he was offered the Russian engine with a bigger size, he had to re-design half of the body to accommodate the new engine.

As per my information, knowledge and exp i can tell you that Shape and Design of the outer body is the most important.If the Aircraft is not aerodynamic enough even with the best of aircraft it will not be successful.Drag is a very major variable here . Our first aim as designers is to to keep the drag to minimal and the next aim is to Keep the weight low. I have answered that above. We look for systems and subsystems which we can fit. If we are developing any we give them size and dimensions. Kaveri was designed as per the aircraft requirements not the other way round. Changing one part does have a impact but what is the severity of the part matters.There can be many interchangeable parts which will have no impact. Change in requirements have impact and if there is a major part changed then it has to go through the entire process of regerous testing.If i change design of clip or stabilizer it might not have alot of impact but If I change the frame or stringer size it will have a great impact. Its is mostly about fitting them.In tejas they were able to fit everything in it which made it a nightmare for the people servicing it(as i recall).

I agree that the design and outfit of the body is the most important thing. What I am arguing is the design and outfit of the body can't be done without considering the tech level of the sub-system you can get. In other words, these sub-systems will partly decide what kind of aerodynamic outfit you choose. In 2000s, both Russia and Chinese knew F-22 was the most balanced design for 5-generation jet. But because their industrial capabilities are behind US, each of them selected different aerodynamic outfits to compensate their own technical weakness on sub-system.

 

[scatterStorm]

General Electric has a 3D printing facility in Pune,top of the line facility.

That 3D printer must be specifically built for manufacturing engine parts, such as more round surfaces and complex curved pipes.

but GE won't let us get the tech to create such printers, no way.

 

[Pulkit]

Because lucky for Tejas, the replacements were mature and superior comparing the original systems. The new radar/engine are better and smaller (or same size), of course there won't be much trouble to fit them in. Besides, these replacements were coming from foreign vendors. These companies have enough experience and new technologies (already used in their new products) to change their old products based on the requirement of HAL.

yes you can say that we were lucky else it would have been another 20 years

But what if your replacement is bigger? Just like Chinese J10, when the designer found the promised Chinese engine was nowhere close to the end and he was offered the Russian engine with a bigger size, he had to re-design half of the body to accommodate the new engine.

I have already stated that Engines do have an impact on the design and structure. I do not agree to my next statement here but it is partially true "Aircraft is built around the engine". If I have mastered a certain engine I will love to use it on all platforms. While designing If i have the engine dimensions handy then it will definitely be great.

I agree that the design and outfit of the body is the most important thing. What I am arguing is the design and outfit of the body can't be done without considering the tech level of the sub-system you can get. In other words, these sub-systems will partly decide what kind of aerodynamic outfit you choose. In 2000s, both Russia and Chinese knew F-22 was the most balanced design for 5-generation jet. But because their industrial capabilities are behind US, each of them selected different aerodynamic outfits to compensate their own technical weakness on sub-system.

I think I need to talk some of my seniors about this because i still believe we design sub systems as per the outer body and try and adjust/fit them later. Will get back if i get any information.

 

[lcafanboy]

With Both FGFA and AMCA failing to take off, India’s 5th Gen Fighter Projects looks rudderless
Published July 13, 2017 SOURCE: ABHOY ROY / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

Six months ago, Modi Government appointed a three-star officer to look into different aspects of the multi-billion dollar fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) programme to co-develop a stealth fighter with Russia, since then nothing much has been confirmed or denied about it by government officials in the media nor discussed in recently concluded Modi’s visit to Russia . FGFA programme was first contacted in 2010 and preliminary design stage was completed in 2013 after spending Rs 1,500 crore but even after seven years project has not made any headway’s while Current Government is preparing to hand out a 100 fighter jet deal to American Companies to dump their 40-year-old F-16s in India. Former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha speaking to the media some time back had said that all will come down to affordability and according to experts FGFA project due to $4-billion research and development (R&D) cost and guaranteed orders for 120 + jets with the same level of Transfer of Technology will make this jets more expensive than Dassault Rafale breaching 120$ Million Dollar per Unit barrier. Present administration seems to have developed Cold feet in finding the money required for the investment in the development of FGFA project and chances are that this might be Second Indo-Russian Military project which might be shelved by this Government after MTA Transporter Co-development Project was dropped earlier this year. The situation of India’s Indeingeiuos Proposed 5th Generation fighter jet proposal too looks shaky, since Government is yet to clear and provide full-scale sanction of the funding required for the project to commence at full scale, While Government has cleared initial funds it is also clear that amount sanctioned for the Design Bureau Team is too little to even start development of core technologies required for 5th generation fighter jet program. While India is yet to even select a partner to develop a suitable power plant for the AMCA fighter jet, there are clear indications that the project is unlikely to take off very soon, rendering Aeronautical Development Agency which is the nodal agency for the design & development of AMCA pretty much jobless. Development of upgraded Tejas MK-1A will be a totally internal job which will be carried out by HAL and Tejas MK-2 Project is still unclear even though the first aircraft will have its flight by 2021-22. Both FGFA and AMCA seems to have been stuck under Red Tape of Bureaucracy of the present government which still has part-time Defence Minister which is holding up the clearance to many key crucial projects like development of Next Generation aircraft carriers and fighter aircraft, which is still waiting for final clearance from the PMO and Defence ministry. Pakistan on the other hand already has declared it will be acquiring 5th generation fighter jets soon and there is a high possibility that Chinese J-31 might be co-developed with Pakistan or Pakistan might accept Turkey’s co-development offer on their TAI TFX 5th generation fighter jet proposal and might be first to introduce 5th generation fighter jet in the region. Many experts fear that F-16 deal will soon lead to F-35 deal with Lockheed Martin and AMCA project might face the brunt of this decision like LCA-Tejas Project faced due to strong Import lobby in India. lack of support coming for AMCA Project in Private Defence Sector also suggest Private Sector are more interested in the quick buck with no R&D investment to make their foray in defence sector in India. With Prices of F-35A all set to fall under 80 Million dollar per Unit post-2020 and with available Amercian ecosystem in India, thanks to F-16s production it might be matter of time before India falls for Marketing gimmick of American companies in disguise of promoting “Assemble in India ” rather than ” Make Indian product in India ” .

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/with-both-fgfa-and-amca-failing-to-take-off-indias-5th-gen-fighter-projects-looks-rudderless/#more-141324 .

 

[Vijyes]

FGFA is not linked with AMCA. Modi wants AMCA development fully indigenously by 2025-27 and FOC by 2030. There is no point in FGFA anymore. FGFA is as good as canceled. AMCA id the sole focus, with development going on with critical components like EW suite, AESA, BVR missiles, Stealth Paint and sensor fusion. Testing of airframe is an easy job and India already has experience with HAL Tejas.

I don't understand what the rant is about

 

[TPFscopes]

IDRW is not a serious portal. So, please don't use it as a source.

 

[smestarz]

FGFA is twin seat PAKFA in simple terms
so technically FGFA cannot be cancelled else it will mean 100+ PAKFAs

AMCA, we dont know much about 5th gen and if we want AMCA to be 5th Gen then we need to get or learn the technology, and the fastest way perhaps is from Russia, If not then we have to learn our own and that will push your 2030 date to 2050 ...

FGFA is not linked with AMCA. Modi wants AMCA development fully indigenously by 2025-27 and FOC by 2030. There is no point in FGFA anymore. FGFA is as good as canceled. AMCA id the sole focus, with development going on with critical components like EW suite, AESA, BVR missiles, Stealth Paint and sensor fusion. Testing of airframe is an easy job and India already has experience with HAL Tejas.

I don't understand what the rant is about

 

[square]

arrey mere bhaiya , we will make rafale here with full TOT.....
the same tech we use in amca.....

everything is already planed.....

fgfa is for russia......china or may be for pakistan in future.....

 

[TPFscopes]

fgfa is for russia......china or may be for pakistan in future.....

For China: very little chances
For Pakistan: No chance ( because 1st. They can buy it and 2nd. If they get donation than they can't handle Operation cost)