Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Kunal Biswas]

Not convincing enough, Really you don`t get that over Internet but on Ground, I did ..

There is good argument I have, these nations have greater knowledge and experience as they work on special armors for decades, US and UK are working on special armor for last 72 years, beat that kind of experience and knowledge!

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Nope .. You are gifted but not gained from level ground ..

I am very bad, and evil person![/I] Can we back to topic?

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The bold part is just your imagination, And still you dont want to get it that system are design according to Host needs ..

I lack understanding? Ok I put it straight, if something is bad, then it is bad by objective standards. I am not Indian, I do not have this silly fanboy attitude towards Arjun and I see it's weaknesses compared to other tank designs, simple as that.

Not to mention that I know more about US, UK, German, French, Soviet, and so on, military developments, that you and most people around here.

I just say, some design solutions that you Indians think are super, cool, modern, around the world are considered for decades as obsolete and nobody is excited about them.

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Read your post below and think about what you messed with, I will tell you its logic ..

Thus from a perspective of no Indian, such attitude is silly, without sense and logic.

Sure, but we all know Indian deserts are so special!.

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Its silly arguing with you, Don`t get me wrong ..

I still waiting!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Like i said you are the one thinking its fishy, Don`t bring out the world they are not involve or else you can provide me a counter statement by Russian themselves .. Which you don`t have coz it does not exist coz they know it failed ..

About the latter part, You are way off-course ..

And of course T-90 is bad? Sorry, it is fishy to me.

So it is too big. Interior volume of a tank must be in balance, it can't be too big, because you have inefficent design in terms of internal volume ratio to vehicle weight and protection. The bigger internal volume the worser protection to weight ratio.

But vehicle also can't be too small obviously. IMHO NATO actually found the most balanced internal volume ratio to weight and protection of vehicle, well almost, we should get rid loaders and use 3 men crews, then our tanks should be perfectly balanced in these terms.

he T tanks are small, they are not the most ergonomic tanks indeed, but also are not bad in terms of fire accuracy, mobility and protection, in fact they are very good.

 

[Damian]

Not convincing enough, Really you don`t get that over Internet but on Ground, I did ..

And so did I!

Look, I am going to be soldier, dunno when, but hopefully to the end of this year I be in barracks, and Militarysta, he is close to the guys serving on Leopard 2's, and materials he find. Well they convience me.

Nope .. You are gifted but not gained from level ground ..

What? And I always wanted to be evil!

The bold part is just your imagination, And still you dont want to get it that system are design according to Host needs ..

What imagination? I see it around this forum all the time!

As for requirements, but requirements should be reated per some universal norms and knowledge about technology advance. Sorry Arjun would not pass any trails in any country outside India, seriously!

Read your post below and think about what you messed with, I will tell you its logic ..

I did not messed anything. That's the perspective of someone outside India who have knowledge about the subject. Seriously Kunal, I am not the only one thinking that way.

Its silly arguing with you, Don`t get me wrong ..

Sure, cool, but still it is not arguing about mentioned technical issues.

 

[Damian]

Like i said you are the one thinking its fishy, Don`t bring out the world they are not involve or else you can provide me a counter statement by Russian themselves .. Which you don`t have coz it does not exist ..

Kunal, do you speak or at least read Russian? Well you can allways use a translator.

Here, go and ask.

СИЛА РОССИИ. Форум сайта «Отвага» ([url]www.otvaga2004.ru)[/url]

And there are people that actually serve also on T-90's, or people like Mr. Murakhovski, and if you don't know who Murakhovski is then... well.

You now only talking to your self, Yes the bold part care to read my previous post again, Oh well i see what you did there ..

What?

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Page 2 - Seite 2
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http://www.sify.com/mobile/news/arjun-s-time-has-come-imagegallery-others-kcejIxhcfac.html
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my bad , I have to say 'one of the best' instead of best. The two links above are proof
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agree , western tanks did well in desert but against which tank?
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now here you are claimin the t90 vs arjun fight was fake! Actually our army too want t90 then why they will announce arjun as winner . And IA doesn't do the desi propaganda like other do
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agree t80 tested in desert but that was soviet russia and plenty fund was there to test tanks . Now, its russia who designed and developed t90 and fund was appropriate , neither they tested them in desert. And the video of test is of t80 and not of t90

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You are doing journo, besides Soldiers needed to be dumb and stupid which is not you ..

Post the material and then talk, Then it will be very convincing ..

And so did I!

Look, I am going to be soldier, dunno when, but hopefully to the end of this year I be in barracks, and Militarysta, he is close to the guys serving on Leopard 2's, and materials he find. Well they convience me.

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You are spending to much time on computer perhaps or books, Go get on a tank ..

Seriously, Does Arjun design for the world or India ?! , You have no idea about geographical details where these design to operate, Admit it ..

What imagination? I see it around this forum all the time!

As for requirements, but requirements should be reated per some universal norms and knowledge about technology advance. Sorry Arjun would not pass any trails in any country outside India, seriously!

I did not messed anything. That's the perspective of someone outside India who have knowledge about the subject. Seriously Kunal, I am not the only one thinking that way.

Sure, cool, but still it is not arguing about mentioned technical issues.

 

[Damian]

my bad , I have to say 'one of the best' instead of best. The two links above are proof

I will not agree it is one of the best. It is actually very far from tank designs considered as the best ones.

agree , western tanks did well in desert but against which tank?

And what it have to do against which tank? NATO tanks were fighting in desert conditions for decades against vast types of threats, be it other tanks, infantry with anti tank weapons or IED's.

now here you are claimin the t90 vs arjun fight was fake! Actually our army too want t90 then why they will announce arjun as winner . And IA doesn't do the desi propaganda like other do

I don't know what "desi" propaganda is. But everyone is making propaganda, is natural and usefull.

agree t80 tested in desert but that was soviet russia and plenty fund was there to test tanks . Now, its russia who designed and developed t90 and fund was appropriate , neither they tested them in desert. And the video of test is of t80 and not of t90

I think you completely miss the point. Soviets tested every their tank in desert conditions. T-64 was tested such way, T-72, T-80, and also T-90. Now you get it? Yes T-90 was also tested in desert conditions. Not only in former Soviet Union territory but also in Arab states, and it performed very well.

Besides this original T-90 is just T-72B "on steroids", while a bit more modern T-90 variants with welded turrets are somewhat a completely new tank, however still sharing some commonality with T-72 series.

 

[methos]

agree or not but arjun have best armour in 3rd gen tanks

It definetly does not have the best armour of third generation tanks.

and t90 was defeated by arjun.

Not really. As mentioned by Indian members of this forum, the mobility of the T-90 was on par with the Arjun, while the Arjun failed gunnery trials. Only after the fire control system was modified it was able to beat the T-90. This is hardly a surprise given the circumstances and the age of the T-90 and it's components.

Bhim...

A private venture which did not enter service and does mostly make use of South-African technology.

Kestrel & Abhay, Go figure out ..

Protoypes of questionable sophistication that are not in service and haven't been subject to proper trials.

120mm Rifled made and design by us, Not a copy of some Soviet design ..

Yes, because being proud of probably the worst tank gun currently existing is the right thing...

But he likes to flip sides when and where it suits his views , Btw Arjun is Indian specific tank i wont be comparing with other tanks ..

No, he does not flip sides. He just is not in love with Indian armoured vehicles and the stupid Indian doctrine regarding indigenous production, which is only shared by Iran and North Korea.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

I will not agree it is one of the best. It is actually very far from tank designs considered as the best ones.



And what it have to do against which tank? NATO tanks were fighting in desert conditions for decades against vast types of threats, be it other tanks, infantry with anti tank weapons or IED's.



I don't know what "desi" propaganda is. But everyone is making propaganda, is natural and usefull.



I think you completely miss the point. Soviets tested every their tank in desert conditions. T-64 was tested such way, T-72, T-80, and also T-90. Now you get it? Yes T-90 was also tested in desert conditions. Not only in former Soviet Union territory but also in Arab states, and it performed very well.

Besides this original T-90 is just T-72B "on steroids", while a bit more modern T-90 variants with welded turrets are somewhat a completely new tank, however still sharing some commonality with T-72 series.

can you give reference for test of T90

 

[Damian]

You are doing journo, besides Soldiers needed to be dumb and stupid which is not you ..

I may write a lot, but service is a good job, and I like it. As for soldiers, not anymore, appratenely times changes, more and more students want to actually serve, at least here in Poland.

Post the material and then talk, Then it will be very convincing ..

@militarysta have such materials about vehicles protection and so on, I do not store such data on my HDD.

You are spending to much time on computer perhaps or books, Go get on a tank ..

Come on, I have plenty of tanks at the campus, seriously we have plenty of T-55's and T-34/85's at the campus of my National Security Academy, tanks, APC's, artillery, even fighter jets standing around, so yeah I was "on a tank", I am passing them everytime I am in Academy. Damn to be honest, I wait when they finally put there some T-72's, and I bet they will when this type of tank will be phased out from service, they probably allready have some not used once ready to be placed in such places like our Academy.

Seriously, Does Arjun design for the world or India ?! , You have no idea about geographical details where these design to operate, Admit it ..

There are universal design criteria, simple as that. And MBT should be designed, like any other type of weapon system to be capable to perform without any problems, in any type of environment.

Look I will give you example, here in Poland our vehicles most time must perform well only for cold winters and moderate climate at spring, summer and autumn. However if nececary, it must also operate efficently in desert conditions, look at Rosomak APC's, they perform perfectly in all these conditions, both here in Poland and in Afghanistan.

And this is how weapon systems should be designed, otherwise you have a big problem when it comes your army to operate in different conditions, or even bigger problem when you want to sold your weapon system. Sorry, without exports these days, every arms manufacturers starts to have problems.

 

[Damian]

can you give reference for test of T90

Sure, it is book Основной боевой танк России, there are photos, I can made screenshots for you.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You on other hand lack the required information to move on, I am still waiting for the the copy of Max Chamber pressure PDF, Which raised by you eons ago and failed to post to support you claims, Nor you were able to provide a proper source to support Kanchan was inferior by DRDO during late 80s perhaps, When asked about DRDO techfocus, You again did not provide anything even did not said that you dont have, So my suggestion is better quite down and lurk for links article to claim your trustworthiness, Otherwise your words are on deaf ears ..

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And why are you replying ? That post was counter product to some one else arguments, Are you looking for trolling ..

A private venture which did not enter service and does mostly make use of South-African technology.

Protoypes of questionable sophistication that are not in service and haven't been subject to proper trials.

Yes, because being proud of probably the worst tank gun currently existing is the right thing...

No, he does not flip sides. He just is not in love with Indian armoured vehicles and the stupid Indian doctrine regarding indigenous production, which is only shared by Iran and North Korea.

 

[Damian]

Screens of T-90S during desert trails in Saudi Arabia.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@methos
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can you give of reference on you claims on arjun vs t90 , heres mine
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Business Standard
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if t90 superior then according to you following news is fake :-
India Reverses Gear, Puts Arjun Tank Back in Production
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I think you answer WITH REFERENCE rather than flat talks
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and kanchan is one of the best and not the best

 

[Damian]

and kanchan is one of the best and not the best

Kanchan was never tested against modern ammunition, because does not have modern ammunition.

Seriously it is nothing spectacular that this armor protected against HESH ammunition, which is ineffective against any type of armor that is not homogneus, a simple spaced armor made from two steel plates makes HESH ineffective.

India does not have also modern APFSDS ammunition, what you use on Arjun Mk1/Mk2 is equivalent to late 1970's and early 1980's NATO 120mm ammunition like DM13 or at best DM23 which is pathetic for today standards with penetration levels of 410mm RHA to ~500mm RHA. While your T-90S tanks use 3BM42 ammunition which is also nothing special for today standards with penetration levels of ~550-580mm RHA.

Today standard NATO ammunition like DM53/63 or M829A2/A3 can penerate around 800-850mm RHA, and if "Kanchan" would survive that from point blank then we could all agree it is one of best armor types. However India does not have gun from which these types of ammunition could be fired as they can be fired only from 120x570mm smoothbore guns, India does not have such guns, and above that, USA does not export M829 series.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

So it is tested but how seriously? How effectively ? Cause this tanks faces problems in india . And against arjun , arjun easily outpassed it.
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we were talking about 1 vs 1 and when I asked against what tanks they are used it means what was quality of opposition tanks when they met in desert with western tanks .

 

[Damian]

Kanchan was never tested against modern ammunition, because does not have modern ammunition.

I mean because India does not have modern ammunition, sorry typo.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You are not a solider material unless you are getting into something to do with designing / Engg ..

Anyways if true, best of luck ..

I may write a lot, but service is a good job, and I like it. As for soldiers, not anymore, appratenely times changes, more and more students want to actually serve, at least here in Poland.

@militarysta have such materials about vehicles protection and so on, I do not store such data on my HDD.

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What you said its correct no questions but going deeper into the topic when you will find the diversity ..

Let me give you an example, Your Rosomak APC is modified to operate over Astan where sand is finer, Over Indian desert its larger in micro size which block the air-filters and needed to be clean all times, At night the humidity level rises unlike in Astan, when it finally settle down over morning with sand it block-out the sensors, So there are many things that need to be taken into consideration before designing a vehicle, Making modification can increase weight and take more space hence design changes occurs ..

And that is why T-90 failed in India, Probably you heard that DRDO is fixing T-90 from its sights to engine to make it operational to 90%, Arjun does not suffer these because its design for our needs ..

There are universal design criteria, simple as that. And MBT should be designed, like any other type of weapon system to be capable to perform without any problems, in any type of environment.

Look I will give you example, here in Poland our vehicles most time must perform well only for cold winters and moderate climate at spring, summer and autumn. However if nececary, it must also operate efficently in desert conditions, look at Rosomak APC's, they perform perfectly in all these conditions, both here in Poland and in Afghanistan.

And this is how weapon systems should be designed, otherwise you have a big problem when it comes your army to operate in different conditions, or even bigger problem when you want to sold your weapon system. Sorry, without exports these days, every arms manufacturers starts to have problems.

 

[Damian]

So it is tested but how seriously? How effectively ? Cause this tanks faces problems in india . And against arjun , arjun easily outpassed it.
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we were talking about 1 vs 1 and when I asked against what tanks they are used it means what was quality of opposition tanks when they met in desert with western tanks .

It was tested per Russian standards, which are very restrictive, probably more then in any other country on this planet. As far as sources say, T-90S passed all trails successfully.

Well, perhaps the problem is not with T-90S per se, but with Indian manufactured T-90S? Maybe tanks manufactured by Avadi are defective? They do not keep quality norms? It is possible.

As for western tanks, they mostly fighed against T-54/55, T-62, T-72 tanks. It does not mean that these old tanks were not dangerous, they were. NATO also performs their own tests against their own tanks.

For example USA have in their desert regions base called Fort Irwin National Training Center, they have M1 tanks there that serve as hight tech opposing force against other M1's, so they simulate battles against enemy on the same technological level.

 

[Damian]

You are not a solider material unless you are getting into something to do with designing / Engg ..

Anyways if true, best of luck ..

Why not a soldier material? Today Polish army search more for educated people capable to use all that new fancy stuff we get, not some morons capable only to shoot rifle.

What you said its correct no questions but going deeper into the topic when you will find the diversity ..

Let me give you an example, Your Rosomak APC is modified to operate over Astan where sand is finer, Over Indian desert its larger in micro size which block the air-filters and needed to be clean all times, At night the humidity level rises unlike in Astan, when it finally settle down over morning with sand it block-out the sensors, So there are many things that need to be taken into consideration before designing a vehicle, Making modification can increase weight and take more space hence design changes occurs ..

Actually Rosomak APC was never modified to operate in desert conditions, it is designed from the base to be capable to operate in such conditions. The only modifications we made to Rosomak's were additional armor plates, RPGNets, and finally a desert tan paint so they can be better camouflaged, no other modifications were made.

As for problems you mention, nah these are not problems, if sand sticks to sensors like optics, you just use optics cleaners, dunno if Indian vehicles have such fancy stuff, but yeah, here in NATO, optic cleaners with washers are preaty much standard.

And that is why T-90 failed in India, Probably you heard that DRDO is fixing T-90 from its sights to engine to make it operational to 90%, Arjun does not suffer these because its design for our needs ..

I would not allow DRDO to fix anything to be honest. Besides this, KMDB presented India with very deep improvement program for T-90 tank, with new type of ERA, better engine and other components, you should ask them to do that job if T-90 does not satisfy you.