Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Damian]

USMC and US Army armor units during training, both in USA and Europe:

 

[Damian]

Documentary about Leclerc MBT, only in french, but a lot of good video material with concept models and prototypes.

 

[Damian]

And something a bit less serious, a video made by my folks from New Strategy portal.

 

[Sovngard]

Documentary about Leclerc MBT, only in french, but a lot of good video material with concept models and prototypes.

Marc Chassillan talks a lot in this video. The woman who works for Nexter gives also a lot of information about the AZUR kit.

If you are interested, I can translate some parts.

And something a bit less serious, a video made by my folks from New Strategy portal.

No love for the C1 Ariete and the Leclerc. :why:

I never viewed the JGSDF's live fire demonstration from this angle.

 

[Damian]

Marc Chassillan talks a lot in this video. The woman who works for Nexter gives also a lot of information about the AZUR kit.

If you are interested, I can translate some parts.

You can translate, I learned french for 3 years in high school and I forgot allmost everything, my french is terible.

No love for the C1 Ariete and the Leclerc.

I never viewed the JGSDF's live fire demonstration from this angle.

AFAIK my collegues searched only good quality videos and they could not find ones for many tank types, so they used what they had.

 

[militarysta]

We will make better tanks than poland...

Possible couse Poland is not making tanks since 2006 (PT-91MZ for Malaysia)
so in this compare indian T-90S and Arjun haven't opposide side.

This what will be produce in Poland it will be medium uniwersal chassis platform. For IFV, MGS, etc.

We are making better tanks as Arjun Mk II better than Poland..

Yes, yes, sure
compare non-existing indian land weapons sytem during decades development proces whit existing polish ones and then compare rather medium european country (Poland) whit circa 40 bilions peoples inside whit whole India whit more then miliard citizens.
And starts to be funny couse despite non comparable Poland - India economy, citizens, etc evirnoments we have conclusion that most program in India are taking decades and result is funny: Arjun, Arjun -Catapult, etc.
Where is modern indian SPH?
Where is modern indian SP motar system?
Where is modern indian wheeld SPH?
Where is modern indian IFV?
Where is modern indian wheeld IFV
Modern APC?
Modern C3 system?
Modern UAV system for artilery?
Gun 120 and 125mm ammo?
WHERE IS INSAS rifle?
and I can give mucht more example sucht too long in time and whit so weak in result program in India, and in compare sucesfull in Poland.

And no, we wil not talking about A-bombs, aircraftcarrier, nuclear submarines etc becouse India is superpower and Poland not.
But just show me comparable to polish ones land weapons programs, ended sucefully in India.

In pure tank thema - poland takes from germany two Leopard-2 brigades whit all equipmentne whit Leo-2A4 (2002) and this one whit Leopard-2A5 (2014), all 2A4 tanks will be upgrade to 2A5 level whit elements of the 2A7 level.

In fact it's hard to compare Arjun and Arjun II whit Leopard-2A5. Leo-2A5 is better in almoust all aspects.
In fact polish armoured corps have tenk on level mucht above all exist now tanks in India, and indian T-90 and Arjun II stories whown that this fact will not change soon, or before 2020.

 

[Santu]

@militarysta , sir will germany gives out TOT if some country buys their tanks in large number? How do you rate leopard 2a6/7 in comparison with T90 in hot conditions (ofcourse T90 isnt that great for hot climate ) ?? And what ever u said about ARJUN is true.. but leopard-2 entered service in 1979.. and on top of that germans have hell lot of experience in tanker building from world war 2...in case of Indian MBT , we started our first MBT design in 1990.. and we dont have prior experience too.. so for a first timer arjun is a good product what do u say ?? i wish they will seek improvements and as you said by 2020 indian MBT might become a good tank

 

[militarysta]

@militarysta , sir will germany gives out TOT if some country buys their tanks in large number?

Even in smaller number
120 tanks for Sweden (Strv.122)
170 tanks for Greece (Leopard-2A6HEL)
219 tanks for Spain (Leopard-2A6E)
Of course it's depends WHAT TOT is needed.
Indians TOT are ussayly wery difficult to achive cose many resons. In effect Indian market is possible to big to ignore it, but needed TOT are ussaly to heavy for manufacurer.
Results?
For exmaple indian 120 and 125mm ammo problem :-/

How do you rate leopard 2a6/7 in comparison with T90 in hot conditions (ofcourse T90 isnt that great for hot climate ) ??

In hot climate? I don't know. Really. In european climate Leo-2 is IMHO mucht mucht better. In indian climate - I don't know. But to be onest Khatar bought now Leopard-2A7 so they are fine on their deserts...

, we started our first MBT design in 1990.. and we dont have prior experience too.. so for a first timer arjun is a good product what do u say ?? i wish they will seek improvements and as you said by 2020 indian MBT might become a good tank

Yes, it's true what you wrote above, but IMHO whole Arjun program take to long time. Arjun starts to be to old as new tank.
Meybe the better way was to choise other tank and "indianizated it" by TOT? I don't know here.
Indian way in result can give yours own industry abilities to making tanks but from the other side:
Arjun is weak in compare to other modern IIIgen MBTs
T-90S have it's quality problem and Russian don't give (or fulfill) all TOT -why? Becouse Indian TOT are to heavy to achive by westerns companies (propably).
There is no "free candy" in this market and result is for exmaple overpriced 300% 3BM42 for india.

Eacht country have it's own way. For one side is Indian ones whit Arjun program and "emergnecy" T-90S program, in other side is Pak program whit T-80UD and Al Chalid program, and even diffrent way is polish one - so "very small" (in compare to India) needed tanks number fulfill by taken from germany Leopard-2's + turning in to "universal medium platform mobile guns system 120mm" as gap filter in mehanizated bde. So this medium platofrm will replace all T-72M1 and most of the PT-91 but "armoured fist" will be make by very modern Leopard-2A5/2PL
3 diffrent ways..

 

[methos]

@militarysta , sir will germany gives out TOT if some country buys their tanks in large number?

Germany has transfered technology to some extend to different European countries. But this would not happen with India, because Germany does not sell their tanks to everyone and does not give technology to everybody.
India is not considered as a close partner of Germany (it is not member of the NATO, it is not member of the EU and not a close ally) and therefore any export would need agreement of the federal security council. The federal security council does pretty much always ban any possible export of larger weapon systems to countries which are considered to be located in crisis areas and are lacking behind in human rights (from the German point of view both these conditions are true for India).

How do you rate leopard 2a6/7 in comparison with T90 in hot conditions (ofcourse T90 isnt that great for hot climate ) ??

The Leopard 2 has been trialed in the American deserts during the 1970s and has seen use in relatively "hot" countries like Spain, Greece, Afghanistan, Turkey and Chile. The governments of Saudi-Arabia and Qatar have shown great interest in the Leopard 2 with the latter signing a contract for buying some.
Initial models don't have any specialized AC unit, so it would require retrofitting these.

in case of Indian MBT , we started our first MBT design in 1990.. and we dont have prior experience too..

The Arjun's development started in 1974 with the conception phase. The first Arjun protoype rolled out in 1983/84 and was shown on a public event in 1985 first.
Prior the development of the Arjun India did licence-produce a version of the Vickers MBT in the 1960s. Beginning in the late-1970s the first T-72s were bought, with licence-production starting in the 1980s.

so for a first timer arjun is a good product what do u say ?

Depends on what you compare the Arjun to. The first Arjun version(s) are lacking behind tanks like the PT-91 or the M-84 made in small countries like Poland and Yugoslavia.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Bhim ..

Where is modern indian SPH?

==========================

Kestrel & Abhay, Go figure out ..

Where is modern indian wheeld SPH?
Where is modern indian IFV?
Where is modern indian wheeld IFV
Modern APC?

===========================

What level of networking you are babbling about , We have C4SI ( Command, Control, Communications, Computer, Satellite and Intelligence ) at crop levels, Design by our DRDO ..

We have our own dedicated communication and surveillance Satellite design ( Coding ) specific to different branches and released by our own design rockets, We have no dependency on others for these matters unlike most Europeans nations ..

Modern C3 system?

===========================

Nishant, Again go figure it out ..

Modern UAV system for artilery?

===========================

120mm Rifled made and design by us, Not a copy of some Soviet design ..

Gun 120 and 125mm ammo?

===========================

Go ahead and shoot

WHERE IS INSAS rifle?

===========================

Loads of BS, You know everything but when it comes to honesty you like to show your true nature ..

and I can give mucht more example sucht too long in time and whit so weak in result program in India, and in compare successful in Poland.

===================
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@SajeevJino, @Santu

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think @Bhadra just baited me .. ... Shift+R improves the quality of this image. Shift+A improves the quality of all images on this page.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@militarysta , agree or not but arjun have best armour in 3rd gen tanks , and t90 was defeated by arjun. Why you comparing western tanks with arjun? Every one was claiming superiority of t90 over arjun and later when arjun defeated it then all silence. Instead of making bs comments stop till there is fight between arjun and western tank in INDIAN HOT CONDITION.
.
seriously, your knowledge on drdo ongoing project is really funny and kunal sir proved it .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Our friend @militarysta knowledge is alot about Indian Armour, I assure you that ..

But he likes to flip sides when and where it suits his views , Btw Arjun is Indian specific tank i wont be comparing with other tanks ..

T-90 is design for Russian Army hence it failed over Indian terrain and lost to Arjun in Joint trails ..

===================

Armed forces requirement are based on there needs from where they operating and against specific threads in the region, Not some fanboy **** measuring competitions like on Internet ..

@militarysta , agree or not but arjun have best armour in 3rd gen tanks , and t90 was defeated by arjun. Why you comparing western tanks with arjun? Every one was claiming superiority of t90 over arjun and later when arjun defeated it then all silence. Instead of making bs comments stop till there is fight between arjun and western tank in INDIAN HOT CONDITION.
.
seriously, your knowledge on drdo ongoing project is really funny and kunal sir proved it .

 

[Damian]

agree or not but arjun have best armour in 3rd gen tanks

Really? You have any proof for this?

Arjun have lot's of weak zones in it's turret design. And I dare to say, "Kanchan" is not even close in performance to newer armor like 3rd generation HAP, or new American NGAP armor developed for M1. German Leopard 2's are also constanly retroffited with new types of armor.

There are just better designed tanks than Arjun that have better performance and better capabilities, like M1A2SEPv2, Leopard 2A6/A7, Leclerc T10/T11 from production Series 3 also known as Series XXI, or Merkava Mk4M. Ukrainian BM "Oplot" and Russian T-90SM also have better capabilities.

and t90 was defeated by arjun.

You can believe it, however around the world opinion is, that these tests were a fraud.

Why you comparing western tanks with arjun?

Why not?

Every one was claiming superiority of t90 over arjun and later when arjun defeated it then all silence.

Nothing went silence, around the world the opinion is clear, T-90S is still overall better tank. Did ever was on any non Indian forum dedicated for AFV's? Arjun have a very bad opinion, especially due to it's turret design. Even Mk2 is considered in terms of turret design as something from scrapyard, with bad ERA coverage full of gaps. Such design would be unacceptable anywhere outside India I believe.

I know Russians and Ukrainians say that ERA placement on Arjun Mk2 is just amateurish in their perspective when they compare how ERA is installed on their tanks. While westerners point out Arjun's weak zones in base turret armor.

Instead of making bs comments stop till there is fight between arjun and western tank in INDIAN HOT CONDITION.

And do you really believe that western tanks were never used in such conditions? What a hot air is some special type of hot air in India? Or you have higher temperatures than in many other places on earth?

Western tanks were used in many very hot places on this planet, first example, Saudi Arabian, Kuwaiti and Iraqi deserts, not only very hot temperatures during day, but also very problematic sand for vehicles, in the end M1, Challenger 1 and Challenger 2 tanks performed exceptionally well in such conditiions.

Afghanistan, again M1, Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 tanks performed exceptionally well in such conditions.

And these countries were real battlefields.

But take in mind that other western tanks also serve in deserts. The Leclerc tanks for UAE, constantly in desert conditions, as far as we know, UAE army don't have any problems with them. M1 tanks serve in Saudi Arabian, Kuwaiti, Egyptian and Iraqi armies, no problems with them, and the best thing is that most of them don't even have A/C units installed, yet they perform very well in deserts. Challenger 1 are serving in Jordanian army, and Challenger 2 in Oman's army, no problems there as well.

Older tanks like M60 series also serve in some of there countries, no problems with them.

Also western countries test their vehicles in many types of environement, we can actually tests our vehicles on terroritory of our allies. And so we can test vehicles in USA on their deserts which are also hot and dry, or in arctic terrain like Alaska, Canada, or Scandinavian countries.

Such way were tested M1 tanks, Leopard 2, just recently new German IFV Puma was tested both in Scandinavian arctic conditions and ten sended stright to Quatar for desert tests.

It is funny how you people believe that only your equipment is tested in difficult weahter conditions and other nations are idiots who never done that. I will surprise you, even Soviet Union tested their tanks in both arctic and desert conditions, there are even declassified video materials showing desert trails of the first T-80 tanks.

seriously, your knowledge on drdo ongoing project is really funny and kunal sir proved it .

And your knowledge about world and other nations military projects, test norms and capabilities is non existing.

 

[Damian]

Armed forces requirement are based on there needs from where they operating and against specific threads in the region, Not some fanboy **** measuring competitions like on Internet ..

Kunal, it might be true for Indian Army, but in NATO and Soviet Union test norms were very precise, that every combat vehicle, must perform well in different types of environement. Thus vehicles developed by these countries (NATO members or Soviet Union and it's allies), were allways tested in moderate climate, then arctic conditions and finally in desert conditions, and vehicles must perform well in all these types of environement. And tests are very difficult, there are long marches, firing trails and other tests.

I can assure you that equipment developed in these countries can perform well also in Indian deserts.

However why T-90S had problems in India? I am more and more convinced that tests were fraud, there might had been sabotage only to show Arjun superiority and start it's mass production.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

And can you do the same ?, What you said goes both ways ..

Really? You have any proof for this?

Arjun have lot's of weak zones in it's turret design. And I dare to say, "Kanchan" is not even close in performance to newer armor like 3rd generation HAP, or new American NGAP armor developed for M1. German Leopard 2's are also constanly retroffited with new types of armor.

There are just better designed tanks than Arjun that have better performance and better capabilities, like M1A2SEPv2, Leopard 2A6/A7, Leclerc T10/T11 from production Series 3 also known as Series XXI, or Merkava Mk4M. Ukrainian BM "Oplot" and Russian T-90SM also have better capabilities.

===================
===================

Which is Irrelevant to us ..

You can believe it, however around the world opinion is, that these tests were a fraud.Why not?

===================
===================


Afaik, Damian i have seen you bad mouth over other places, You lack understanding about Military design evolution of other countries, Only think you know is about US and US is not the world no matter how gud they are ..

Comparing things sometime seen just an way to get rid of real topic and more of an Argument winning ..

Nothing went silence, around the world the opinion is clear, T-90S is still overall better tank. Did ever was on any non Indian forum dedicated for AFV's? Arjun have a very bad opinion, especially due to it's turret design. Even Mk2 is considered in terms of turret design as something from scrapyard, with bad ERA coverage full of gaps. Such design would be unacceptable anywhere outside India I believe.

I know Russians and Ukrainians say that ERA placement on Arjun Mk2 is just amateurish in their perspective when they compare how ERA is installed on their tanks. While westerners point out Arjun's weak zones in base turret armor.

===================
===================

My friend, There are many kind of desert and there are many kind of sands so does humidity levels and high temp difference which all effect crew health and engines, Wonder why T-90 had serious issues with Engines in India before OFB modified them ??

You lack these knowledge ..

And do you really believe that western tanks were never used in such conditions? What a hot air is some special type of hot air in India? Or you have higher temperatures than in many other places on earth?

Western tanks were used in many very hot places on this planet, first example, Saudi Arabian, Kuwaiti and Iraqi deserts, not only very hot temperatures during day, but also very problematic sand for vehicles, in the end M1, Challenger 1 and Challenger 2 tanks performed exceptionally well in such conditiions.

Afghanistan, again M1, Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 tanks performed exceptionally well in such conditions.

And these countries were real battlefields.

But take in mind that other western tanks also serve in deserts. The Leclerc tanks for UAE, constantly in desert conditions, as far as we know, UAE army don't have any problems with them. M1 tanks serve in Saudi Arabian, Kuwaiti, Egyptian and Iraqi armies, no problems with them, and the best thing is that most of them don't even have A/C units installed, yet they perform very well in deserts. Challenger 1 are serving in Jordanian army, and Challenger 2 in Oman's army, no problems there as well.

Older tanks like M60 series also serve in some of there countries, no problems with them.

Also western countries test their vehicles in many types of environement, we can actually tests our vehicles on terroritory of our allies. And so we can test vehicles in USA on their deserts which are also hot and dry, or in arctic terrain like Alaska, Canada, or Scandinavian countries.

Such way were tested M1 tanks, Leopard 2, just recently new German IFV Puma was tested both in Scandinavian arctic conditions and ten sended stright to Quatar for desert tests.

It is funny how you people believe that only your equipment is tested in difficult weahter conditions and other nations are idiots who never done that. I will surprise you, even Soviet Union tested their tanks in both arctic and desert conditions, there are even declassified video materials showing desert trails of the first T-80 tanks.



And your knowledge about world and other nations military projects, test norms and capabilities is non existing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I replied in my previous post you should see it, My friends are in Armored units one of them was present during the test, Btw he command a T-90 ..

However why T-90S had problems in India? I am more and more convinced that tests were fraud, there might had been sabotage only to show Arjun superiority and start it's mass production.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Btw, I have seen you talking about large interior of Arjun, It has something to do with dispersion of heat ( Not HEAT round ) inside the tank and psychological reason, i cannot remember the exact medial term for it, Due to this Crew can be inside more than they live Inside T-tanks, It increase endurance of the crew in long period over desert ..

 

[Damian]

And can you do the same ?, What you said goes both ways ..

There is good argument I have, these nations have greater knowledge and experience as they work on special armors for decades, US and UK are working on special armor for last 72 years, beat that kind of experience and knowledge!

Which is Irrelevant to us ..

Oh, it is very relevant.

Afaik, Damian i have seen you bad mouth over other places, You lack understanding about Military design evolution of other countries, Only think you know is about US and US is not the world no matter how gud they are ..

Comparing things sometime seen just an way to get rid of real topic and more of an Argument winning ..

Oh I have a very bad mouth as I am very bad, and evil person! Can we back to topic?

I lack understanding? Ok I put it straight, if something is bad, then it is bad by objective standards. I am not Indian, I do not have this silly fanboy attitude towards Arjun and I see it's weaknesses compared to other tank designs, simple as that.

Not to mention that I know more about US, UK, German, French, Soviet, and so on, military developments, that you and most people around here.

I just say, some design solutions that you Indians think are super, cool, modern, around the world are considered for decades as obsolete and nobody is excited about them.

Thus from a perspective of no Indian, such attitude is silly, without sense and logic.

We guys from outside India, pointed out many times, what things are considered as wrongly designed, or is obsolete by world, yes, not by US, Chinese, or Russian, but by world standards.

And this is a point when we discuss subjects with some people here that are silly enough to say "but hey, Arjun have the best armor from all tanks" or "but hey, Arjun have the best gun from all tanks".

My friend, There are many kind of desert and there are many kind of sands so does humidity levels and high temp difference which all effect crew health and engines,

Sure, but we all know Indian deserts are so special!

And seriously, there is noting special in Indian deserts, they are same like any other desert, hot with tons of annoying sand that can make maintnance and reliability problems for machines.

Wonder why T-90 had serious issues with Engines in India before OFB modified them ??

Yeah I know, maybe crews were not well trained to perform good maintnance procedures, or perhaps all that story is a fraud? India is one of the most corrupted countries on this planet. You think that corruption comes only from the outside? That there might not be interior corruption? Oh I can imagine DRDO paying cash to some people to create a "smoke screen" about T-90 so they can finally put Arjun in to mass production, why not?

This theory is as good as any other.

You lack these knowledge ..

Really? Well Kunal, you might start to fend off my arguments with your arguments, I still waiting!

 

[Damian]

I replied in my previous post you should see it, My friends are in Armored units one of them was present during the test, Btw he command a T-90 ..

And of course T-90 is bad? Sorry, it is fishy to me.

Btw, I have seen you talking about large interior of Arjun, It has something to do with dispersion of heat ( Not HEAT round ) inside the tank and psychological reason, i cannot remember the exact medial term for it, Due to this Crew can be inside more than they live Inside T-tanks, It increase endurance of the crew in long period over desert ..

So it is too big. Interior volume of a tank must be in balance, it can't be too big, because you have inefficent design in terms of internal volume ratio to vehicle weight and protection. The bigger internal volume the worser protection to weight ratio.

But vehicle also can't be too small obviously. IMHO NATO actually found the most balanced internal volume ratio to weight and protection of vehicle, well almost, we should get rid loaders and use 3 men crews, then our tanks should be perfectly balanced in these terms.

he T tanks are small, they are not the most ergonomic tanks indeed, but also are not bad in terms of fire accuracy, mobility and protection, in fact they are very good.