Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Kunal Biswas]

What other countries make MBT have such ammo to prove their worthiness ?, Provide a source where these rounds are used against any other mordern MBT in live fire and recorded, Coz there are none ..

There is nothing spectacular about getting the requirement done, Arjun was meant to survive Heat rounds and what known AP rounds avilable to others in the region, Btw MK2 has different composition ..

Kanchan was never tested against modern ammunition, because does not have modern ammunition..

So it is tested but how seriously? How effectively ? Cause this tanks faces problems in india .

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

On problem with T90s made in russia cause they are not facing any problem cause they are not operated in desert, indian one was , hence the problem.
.
I mean what tanks western tanks faced in afghanistan and desert

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You should really ask your designers because i did back in 2012 ..

You missed the whole point again, What kind of sand that what matter and that is why all deserts are diffeerent in their way for effecting tank engines and sensors ..

You are getting your ideas against facts Again ..

Why not a soldier material? Today Polish army search more for educated people capable to use all that new fancy stuff we get, not some morons capable only to shoot rifle.

Actually Rosomak APC was never modified to operate in desert conditions, it is designed from the base to be capable to operate in such conditions. The only modifications we made to Rosomak's were additional armor plates, RPGNets, and finally a desert tan paint so they can be better camouflaged, no other modifications were made.

As for problems you mention, nah these are not problems, if sand sticks to sensors like optics, you just use optics cleaners, dunno if Indian vehicles have such fancy stuff, but yeah, here in NATO, optic cleaners with washers are preaty much standard.


I would not allow DRDO to fix anything to be honest. Besides this, KMDB presented India with very deep improvement program for T-90 tank, with new type of ERA, better engine and other components, you should ask them to do that job if T-90 does not satisfy you.

 

[methos]

And why are you replying ? That post was counter product to some one else arguments, Are you looking for trolling ..

Why shouldn't I reply if you are obviously mentioning vehicles not matter of the discussion because them being unfinished prototypes? You also replied to militarysta's post without him talking to you earlier.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Can you do a favor, Please go back and study before knee jerking ..

Why shouldn't I reply if you are obviously mentioning vehicles not matter of the discussion because them being unfinished prototypes?

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Wht ?

You also replied to militarysta's post without him talking to you earlier.

 

[bose]

It was tested per Russian standards, which are very restrictive, probably more then in any other country on this planet. As far as sources say, T-90S passed all trails successfully.

I see a contradiction here in your argument... If you can trust Russians based on no reference then why not Indians ??

Well, perhaps the problem is not with T-90S per se, but with Indian manufactured T-90S? Maybe tanks manufactured by Avadi are defective? They do not keep quality norms? It is possible.

You are speculating here ...

As for western tanks, they mostly fighed against T-54/55, T-62, T-72 tanks. It does not mean that these old tanks were not dangerous, they were. NATO also performs their own tests against their own tanks.

For example USA have in their desert regions base called Fort Irwin National Training Center, they have M1 tanks there that serve as hight tech opposing force against other M1's, so they simulate battles against enemy on the same technological level.

Western countries have fought against rag tag militias and not against formidable foes ... the result will be very different...

 

[Damian]

What other countries make MBT have such ammo to prove their worthiness ?, Provide a source where these rounds are used against any other mordern MBT in live fire and recorded, Coz there are none ..

Every country test their vehicles against ammunition they have. USA for example tested M1A1HA against their own ammunition, however declassified document does not say anything about armor protection because purpose of this test was to meassure DU material spread around the vehicle and inside if armor was breached after several hits.

Such data is just mostly classified. But we know that such tests are performed.

There is nothing spectacular about getting the requirement done, Arjun was meant to survive Heat rounds and what known AP rounds avilable to others in the region, Btw MK2 has different composition ..

And what if your neighbours have better ammunition?

On problem with T90s made in russia cause they are not facing any problem cause they are not operated in desert, indian one was , hence the problem.

Russian made T-90's were tested in desert environment, performed very well. It seems only Indian made T-90's have problems.

I mean what tanks western tanks faced in afghanistan and desert

? NATO tanks in Afghanistan does not faced armor threat, however they faced RPG's and IED's, in Iraqi deserts, NATO tanks fought against Iraqi tanks, RPG's and ATGM's and later also IED threats, and perfomed above any expectations.

You missed the whole point again, What kind of sand that what matter and that is why all deserts are diffeerent in their way for effecting tank engines and sensors ..

There is nothing special in sand in Indian deserts. Engine filters are designed to protect engine against any types of sand, unless filters are just badly designed. While sensors are not affected at all as they are hermetically sealed from the outside world, the only thing you need to do is to clean their protective glass and voila.

You are getting your ideas against facts Again ..

What facts? What own ideas? I just say how it looks like in reality.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am off, Btw will post photos of Rosomak when come back ..

 

[Damian]

I see a contradiction here in your argument... If you can trust Russians based on no reference then why not Indians ??

Because Indian claims are against logic. I have a very little trust to your claims, especially that they are mostly in "India Stronk!!!!11111!!!!" mood.

You are speculating here ...

Yes, but this speculation is still relevant. I still remember how your engineers were visiting Poland and asking if we could prepare a modernization for your T-55's similiar to our T-55AM "Merida".

Western countries have fought against rag tag militias and not against formidable foes ... the result will be very different...

If for you Iraqi army that was very competent, very well trained and experienced after years of war against Iran is a rag tag militia then we have nothing to speek about.

Not to mention that terrorists are also very formidable foe. Did you ever actually talked with someone who was in Afghanistan or Iraq? I have collegues that are soldiers and served both in iraq and Afghanistan, they speek about fighting capabilities of these militias very high, and consider them as very dangerous enemy.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Provide some interesting things as you speak my friend, I provided Kanchan tests of 80s ..

But i received none of what you claim ..

Every country test their vehicles against ammunition they have. USA for example tested M1A1HA against their own ammunition, however declassified document does not say anything about armor protection because purpose of this test was to meassure DU material spread around the vehicle and inside if armor was breached after several hits.

Such data is just mostly classified. But we know that such tests are performed

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And that is why MK2 has ERA and NERA and improved Kanchan

And what if your neighbours have better ammunition?

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You are just talking to yourself ..

Read my post or read the links posted over defective T-90 thread, Also in exam dont be like this you wont pass ( Kidding ) ..

There is nothing special in sand in Indian deserts. Engine filters are designed to protect engine against any types of sand, unless filters are just badly designed. While sensors are not affected at all as they are hermetically sealed from the outside world, the only thing you need to do is to clean their protective glass and voila.

What facts? What own ideas? I just say how it looks like in reality.

 

[bose]

Because Indian claims are against logic. I have a very little trust to your claims, especially that they are mostly in "India Stronk!!!!11111!!!!" mood.

A bad way of putting one's argument !!

Yes, but this speculation is still relevant. I still remember how your engineers were visiting Poland and asking if we could prepare a modernization for your T-55's similiar to our T-55AM "Merida".

So you are arguing based on speculation ?? When was that ??

If for you Iraqi army that was very competent, very well trained and experienced after years of war against Iran is a rag tag militia then we have nothing to speek about.

Not to mention that terrorists are also very formidable foe. Did you ever actually talked with someone who was in Afghanistan or Iraq? I have collegues that are soldiers and served both in iraq and Afghanistan, they speek about fighting capabilities of these militias very high, and consider them as very dangerous enemy.

I rate Iraqi army badly, lacks the discipline to give a fight... If the western countries are finding the terrorist hard to handle then what will be their be against a Chinese, Indian, Russian, Vietnam or Koreans...

 

[Damian]

Provide some interesting things as you speak my friend, I provided Kanchan tests of 80s ..

But i received none of what you claim ..

The health hazards of depleted uranium munitions (c)
The health hazards of depleted uranium munitions (e)

Here, they only say that in 1989 M1A1HA armor was tested against different types of ammunition, among them 120mm APFSDS with DU penetrator, most likely M829A1.

There were seven tests of a single armor module, after several hits, armor was finally defeated. However purpose of these tests was not to check protection capabilities of armor but to tests DU dust spread outside and inside vehicle.

And that is why MK2 has ERA and NERA and improved Kanchan

I can see only ERA, no NERA on tank, unless "Kanchan" internal design is NERA, however sources you provided "Kanchan" is passive armor, not reactive composite like "Burlington" and it's replacements.

You are just talking to yourself ..

Read my post or read the links posted over defective T-90 thread ..

And again I stand with my opinion.

 

[Damian]

A bad way of putting one's argument !!

No, this is actually how we see it reading this forum.

So you are arguing based on speculation ?? When was that ??

Between 1980's and 1990's, i know this from a guy that was close to events as he is military press journalist. However for some reason the deal was never made. At that time India was interested in a lot of our projects, like Drawa FCS for T-72 tanks, your officers were also very interested in prototypes of our AHS Krab self propelled howitzer.

I rate Iraqi army badly, lacks the discipline to give a fight... If the western countries are finding the terrorist hard to handle then what will be their be against a Chinese, Indian, Russian, Vietnam or Koreans...

Then you know nothings.

Iraqi army especially republican guard was very competent fighting force. And terrorists are very well trained and they know how to fight. Only fool underestimate a potential enemy, a truth well known to us westerners, if you underestimate your enemy, you allready loose.

Funny thing tough, we could easy defeat them if we just use a total war tactics, not these silly ROE's for assymetric warfare.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

can you prove how T90 done well in desert? Till now we have nothing but your flat talks, there is lot of difference between arjun and iranian tanks( can you tell of name) . And their army was not capable .
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again test of armour of M1A1HA ( reference?) , result not revealed! It also means armour is not capable

 

[Damian]

can you prove how T90 done well in desert? Till now we have nothing but your flat talks, there is lot of difference between arjun and iranian tanks( can you tell of name) . And their army was not capable .

Can you read russian? Yes? Then purchase the book title I provided you.

And what Iranian tanks? when we do spoke about Iran?!

again test of armour of M1A1HA ( reference?) , result not revealed! It also means armour is not capable

I gave you documents.

And again it seems you have problems with understanding text in english do you? As I said, the M1A1HA armor tests purpose was to test DU dust residue outisde and inside vehicle after hits, the purpose of this test was not to check vehicle armor protection!

Do you understand this simple difference between armor protection test and other types of tests connected with armor? Like in this case DU dust residue levels? And how dangerous it can be to health of soldiers?

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Hahahaha! Needed 8 years to defect iraq and this tanks performed exceptionally well! I wonder how?
.
THE potential was also visible during vietnam war

 

[bose]

No, this is actually how we see it reading this forum.

So your argument is based on what you perceive on a forum ??

Between 1980's and 1990's, i know this from a guy that was close to events as he is military press journalist. However for some reason the deal was never made. At that time India was interested in a lot of our projects, like Drawa FCS for T-72 tanks, your officers were also very interested in prototypes of our AHS Krab self propelled howitzer.

There are many things that Indians are interested !! So what ??

Really I expect a matured arguments from you... it surprise me no end...

Then you know nothings.

Iraqi army especially republican guard was very competent fighting force. And terrorists are very well trained and they know how to fight. Only fool underestimate a potential enemy, a truth well known to us westerners, if you underestimate your enemy, you allready loose.

Funny thing tough, we could easy defeat them if we just use a total war tactics, not these silly ROE's for assymetric warfare.

I do not say to underestimate one's enemy... but seeing the chest thumping of the western countries and that too difficulty to sub due the rag tag terrorists and ill trained arab armies.. make me think that western countries army will find against a well disciplined army... US army learned the lessons in Vietnam... those fancy gadgets are useless when they have to come down to ground and fight a well determined army face to face...

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Can you read russian? Yes? Then purchase the book title I provided you.

And what Iranian tanks? when we do spoke about Iran?!



I gave you documents.

And again it seems you have problems with understanding text in english do you? As I said, the M1A1HA armor tests purpose was to test DU dust residue outisde and inside vehicle after hits, the purpose of this test was not to check vehicle armor protection!

Do you understand this simple difference between armor protection test and other types of tests connected with armor? Like in this case DU dust residue levels? And how dangerous it can be to health of soldiers?

can you read hindi? I can tell you a book which will solve all your question on design of arjun mk2
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अर्जून टँक : शुरुवात से अंततक

 

[Damian]

Hahahaha! Needed 8 years to defect iraq and this tanks performed exceptionally well! I wonder how?

Can you start to behave like grown up, and also talk with sence? Listen I am really tired to trying to explain some simple things to people that seems to have problems with comprehending reality.

THE potential was also visible during vietnam war

When we started to speak about Vietnam war era?! Jesus Christ, I am surrounded by idiots?!

So your argument is based on what you perceive on a forum ??

Among other things.

There are many things that Indians are interested !! So what ??

Really I expect a matured arguments from you... it surprise me no end...

The point was, your army wanted T-55 upgrade from other country, which made a lot of laughs that a "superpower" could not modernize such old tank on it's own.

I do not say to underestimate one's enemy... but seeing the chest thumping of the western countries and that too difficulty to sub due the rag tag terrorists and ill trained arab armies.. make me think that western countries army will find against a well disciplined army... US army learned the lessons in Vietnam... those fancy gadgets are useless when they have to come down to ground and fight a well determined army face to face...

Oh, yeah, Indian army can try to fight them, I will have a lot of laughs then.

And for your information, it is actually much easier to defeat regular army than terrorists.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Can you start to behave like grown up, and also talk with sence? Listen I am really tired to trying to explain some simple things to people that seems to have problems with comprehending reality.



When we started to speak about Vietnam war era?! Jesus Christ, I am surrounded by idiots?!



Among other things.


And for your information, it is actually much easier to defeat regular army than terrorists.

if a guy finds other fool, it
means he think himself
clever but actually both are
clever and both are fools , the
result lies on perspective
.
now its no new that iraq have miserable army. And exceptionally well tanks were so miserable that it took 8 years to defeat iraq.
.
actually those who talks without reference is a fool.