Why Germany lost WW2?

[LETHALFORCE]

He is right. Hitler loved Germanic people which included the English. Hitler's ideology was a race based one and he himself declared that the USSR invasion was a race war. You can refer Wiki.

probably the largest air campaign against civilians in ww2 was by Hitler against the British until the fall
of Berlin where allies totally destroyed the major German cities

 

[Skyh3ck]

I guess we must have few thread to discuss world history from Islamic invasion point of view.. like for example Charles Martel, Christian Crusaders etc

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Per your definition, would you say Bose's Azad Hind Fauz was a left wing army or a right wing army?

This obsession with left wing,right wing is actually a waste of energy as people,groups or organizations are better grouped according to their objectives and if they have multiples objectives then the priority of their objectives.

And finally why do people by this classification put survival and long term self preservation of a group,people,etc as only the domain of right wingers.every group has to have the survival instinct at their core or otherwise they will be evolutionary outpaced.

IMHO if the above is true it is actually a stealth insult to all left wing groups as we are saying they are like mayflies with low lifespan and not capable of sustaining themselves.This is why I classify groups according to other defenitions and goals rather left and right, conservative and liberal as they lost all meaning if any they might have had.Now thay only add more confusion than clarification.

 

[asianobserve]

He could have used his U boat fleet. U boats were deadly effective in the North sea during the first phase of the Atlantic war. If the RAF was neutralized over English Channel. RN would have no option but keep away their heavy units from both the North Sea and the English Channel. The smaller destroyers and cruisers could have being picked out by Stukas.

That's "what if" the RAF was defeated. But it was not defeated for Hitler made the wrong decision to bomb London itself than aytacking RAF bases. Hitler wanted to pressure the London population into pressuring Churchill to sue for peace. The opposite happened. And the worsed part of it was that the RAF was given respite to regroup and repair.

So using uboats in the shallow English channel would be suicidal for the RAF aircrafts will be all over it.

Hitler's strategy all along was really to force Churchill to sue for peace with maximum pressure. Alas, in Churchill he met his mstch.

 

[hit&run]

This obsession with left wing,right wing is actually a waste of energy as people,groups or organizations are better grouped according to their objectives and if they have multiples objectives then the priority of their objectives.

And finally why do people by this classification put survival and long term self preservation of a group,people,etc as only the domain of right wingers.every group has to have the survival instinct at their core or otherwise they will be evolutionary outpaced.

IMHO if the above is true it is actually a stealth insult to all left wing groups as we are saying they are like mayflies with low lifespan and not capable of sustaining themselves.This is why I classify groups according to other defenitions and goals rather left and right, conservative and liberal as they lost all meaning if any they might have had.Now thay only add more confusion than clarification.

Very Interesting post.

I can not find any fault with this but I would say when you are continuously boxed into RW and called names as RW Fascists then it is absolutely appropriate to call them leftist and they themselves use this label for themselves so I see no issue here.

When I started here on this forum this was not even part of Lingua Franka here but when continuous attacks and name-calling started to pin nationalists and other adjectives were used like Internet Hindus, Bakhts people started to react back.

RW is telling the real truth that Fascists and Nazi were Left-wingers. Their Ideology was the reason of Genocides across the globe. It was Karl Marx that gave Two nation theory when he analysed Islam.

No right-wing leader nor their followers use these adjectives with that liberty.

Look how third class Jihadi scoundrel Imran Khan use these adjectives against Hindus when they themselves have reduced minority to abysmal numbers.

Therefore Labels cut Labels IMHO.

 

[The Ultranationalist]

so I am starting this thread to discuss what could be the possible reasons for Nazi Germany defeat in WW2. Members are free to give their opinion or points which they think cause the final downfall of the third Reich or sealed it's fate.

there could be no. of reasons --- which can be further elaborated. anyone can add more points if they want.

• invasion of Soviet Union.
• germany underestimation of Soviet reserve's.
• incompetency of Hitler & German higher command.
• not investing in navy.
• declaring war on US.
• operation Uranus( destruction of 6th army).
•Bagration ( destruction of army group center).
• lack of oil.

In my personal opinion it's was moving Guderian 2nd panzer south for encirclement of Kiev which sealed Wehrmacht fate as it delayed offensive on Moscow & it's captured before winter.

anyone watching this thread. You are free to add your opinion or points you think were responsible for German defeat.

The very reason why Germany lost is leaving the business unfinished. British were almost air forces less, and Germans almost reached Moscow when that idiot Hitler ordered the operations to stop and at the same time messed with another heavyweight USA. Never leave your business unfinished and take on your enemies one at a time.

 

[hit&run]

The very reason why Germany lost is leaving the business unfinished. British were almost air forces less, and Germans almost reached Moscow when that idiot Hitler ordered the operations to stop and at the same time messed with another heavyweight USA. Never leave your business unfinished and take on your enemies one at a time.

There was a documentary on this very reason for German loss.

I think Modi is doing the same. Since shooting down F-16 there has been no follow up.

 

[The Ultranationalist]

There was a documentary on this very reason for German loss.

I think Modi is doing the same. Since shooting down F-16 there has been no follow up.

I think Modi is waiting for the porkland to decent into chaos and collapse. Wait and watch strategy.

 

[hit&run]

I think Modi is waiting for the porkland to decent into chaos and collapse. Wait and watch strategy.

Pakistanis have already touched the bottom of the barrel. Without external intervention, they will keep surviving on their Credit cycle.

Modi has to de-hyphenate its offensive military intent from internal politics, I dare say including Geo-Political repercussions and has to start building it up as an independent war machine preempting every possible adversary in the neighbourhood and beyond especially those who are accommodating Pakistan covertly and overtly.

Yes, I have changed my understanding of it very recently from all-inclusive factors and waiting for conducive alignments to pushing it towards strategically independent doctrine which is numb to so-called aftermaths and bad PR. I have made some points on it a few months ago when a member asked me a question pertaining to the same Independently operating War Machine.

The method must only be worked out on the tactical aspect of the offences that inflicts the most damage not how he must design the post offensive optics and propaganda which we, in any case, will handle badly.

The thresholds must be loosened and operations without caring collaterals allowed to be messy, not clinical.

The Nehruvian political insecurity of keeping the military in shackles must be put down now. With technology, more transparency can be brought in to check corruption if that is a concern to muzzle them down.

The best way to achieve that independence and anaesthetized the effect of Internal politics is to creat War reserves and massive black budgets even bigger than the declared budgets.

There is plenty of noise and we have seen many retired Generals talking like Librandus. Modi must handpick sharp war-making minds who only dream of conflicts and nuisance.

Clinical offensives are carrying a lot of room for 'reverse plausible deniability'. Intelligent people quickly adjust given they are religious to their Intent. To complete the loop from where this discussion started and keep repeating until it's done.

 

[amit19]

Better recheck history. Hitler thought that after the defeat of France that Britain will sue for peace. The threat of invasion was initially a ruse to compel Churchill to realize that Hitler was serious about invading Britain if no peace deal was agreed. But the bulldog did not play by Hitler's bluff. So Hitler had no choice but to cobble up a desperate effort to cross the channel using converted canal boats as landing crafts!

Unfortunately for Hitler, even his cobbled up invasion force was doomed since Goering could not decisively defeat the RAF.

So the already half-hearted invasion pkan was abandoned. Instead, Hitler opened up the Eastern front against Russia, an even bigger blunder.

Btw, I did mention about Japan. What's with that?

German army made all preparations to defeat France and all small nations in Europe. But they did not made any preparations (before war) to defeat Britain by crossing English Chanel. Britain army lost huge number of its solders (some say 11k killed, 50k captured) in France battle. So Germans knew Britain can do nothing against Germany with this weakened army and air-force.
Its true that germans were unable to cross english chanel to defeat Britain but its also true vice versa for that point of time as well when Hitler decided to go East. Because for that time West side was almost standing on a stalemate for both German and Britain.

This stalemate understanding might have encouraged German generals to look east and finally move East. Now this moving East finally turned out to be blunder because NOBODY ... NOBODY calculated USA and its power. To me Hitler/ german generals almost ignored the "far away country called USA" and this ignorance proved to be a blunder. Had USA remained out of WW2, for the germans, even war with russia lost, still germans might have ended in controlling most of European main land.
They ignored USA and paid the price. It looks like blunder was to ignore USA in calculations and not to look east.

 

[Tactical Frog]

I remember that Charles de Gaulle had tried to answer to the question « why France lost the war » and then he gave a quite premonitory assessment of the outcome of WW2.
Being himself a tankist, he had full confidence in the the sheer power of «mechanised force» .

Full text of his London BBC speech.

June 18 1940

The leaders who, for many years past, have been at the head of the French armed forces have set up a government.
Alleging the defeat of our armies, this government has entered into negotiations with the enemy with a view to bringing about a cessation of hostilities.

It is quite true that we were, and still are, overwhelmed by enemy mechanised forces, both on the ground and in the air. It was the tanks, the planes, and the tactics of the Germans, far more than the fact that we were outnumbered, that forced our armies to retreat. It was the German tanks, planes, and tactics that provided the element of surprise which brought our leaders to their present plight.
But has the last word been said? Must we abandon all hope? Is our defeat final and irremediable? To those questions I answer - No!

Speaking in full knowledge of the facts, I ask you to believe me when I say that the cause of France is not lost. The very factors that brought about our defeat may one day lead us to victory.
For, remember this, France does not stand alone. She is not isolated. Behind her is a vast empire, and she can make common cause with the British empire, which commands the seas and is continuing the struggle. Like England, she can draw unreservedly on the immense industrial resources of the United States.
This war is not limited to our unfortunate country. The outcome of the struggle has not been decided by the battle of France. This is a world war. Mistakes have been made, there have been delays and untold suffering, but the fact remains that there still exists in the world everything we need to crush our enemies some day.
Today we are crushed by the sheer weight of mechanised force hurled against us, but we can still look to a future in which even greater mechanised force will bring us victory. The destiny of the world is at stake.

I, General de Gaulle, now in London, call on all French officers and men who are at present on British soil, or may be in the future, with or without their arms; I call on all engineers and skilled workmen from the armaments factories who are at present on British soil, or may be in the future, to get in touch with me.
Whatever happens, the flame of French resistance must not and shall not die.
Tomorrow I shall broadcast again from London.

June 19 1940

 

[asianobserve]

German army made all preparations to defeat France and all small nations in Europe. But they did not made any preparations (before war) to defeat Britain by crossing English Chanel. Britain army lost huge number of its solders (some say 11k killed, 50k captured) in France battle. So Germans knew Britain can do nothing against Germany with this weakened army and air-force.
Its true that germans were unable to cross english chanel to defeat Britain but its also true vice versa for that point of time as well when Hitler decided to go East. Because for that time West side was almost standing on a stalemate for both German and Britain.

This stalemate understanding might have encouraged German generals to look east and finally move East. Now this moving East finally turned out to be blunder because NOBODY ... NOBODY calculated USA and its power. To me Hitler/ german generals almost ignored the "far away country called USA" and this ignorance proved to be a blunder. Had USA remained out of WW2, for the germans, even war with russia lost, still germans might have ended in controlling most of European main land.
They ignored USA and paid the price. It looks like blunder was to ignore USA in calculations and not to look east.

NAZI's defeat was a product of one man's megalomania and the danger of propaganda becoming the reality to the propagandist.

 

[no smoking]

NAZI's defeat was a product of one man's megalomania and the danger of propaganda becoming the reality to the propagandist.

That is childish version of history: 80m people blindly followed one evil man to the hell.

In fact, the 1929 great depression hit German so badly, they simply didn't have any option but war: unlike today, in 1930s, the world market was basically controlled by colonial empires like UK/France, or US. In long term, Germany simply couldn't compete with these countries on a relatively fair base as long as this system still existed.

The only difference between Hitler and the German elite circle was: Germany elites believed that they can wait until 1944 (the original war time schedule) while Hitler adjusted his timetable based on his bank statement.

 

[south block]

That is childish version of history: 80m people blindly followed one evil man to the hell.

In fact, the 1929 great depression hit German so badly, they simply didn't have any option but war: unlike today, in 1930s, the world market was basically controlled by colonial empires like UK/France, or US. In long term, Germany simply couldn't compete with these countries on a relatively fair base as long as this system still existed.

The only difference between Hitler and the German elite circle was: Germany elites believed that they can wait until 1944 (the original war time schedule) while Hitler adjusted his timetable based on his bank statement.

Yes this is one of the best post so far --- people forgot great depression was the real cause of WW2 and rising power like Germany and Japan challenging existing order of UK,US & France --- Germany and Japan has no other choice other than to go to war --- as both countries economic & geopolitical ambitions of colonialism depended upon smashing the existing order. ----- real mistake made by both --- was jumping the gun to fast. --- Chinese establishment surely has taken clues from history but will it succeed is a different thing all together :biggrin2:

 

[asianobserve]

That is childish version of history: 80m people blindly followed one evil man to the hell.

In fact, the 1929 great depression hit German so badly, they simply didn't have any option but war: unlike today, in 1930s, the world market was basically controlled by colonial empires like UK/France, or US. In long term, Germany simply couldn't compete with these countries on a relatively fair base as long as this system still existed.

The only difference between Hitler and the German elite circle was: Germany elites believed that they can wait until 1944 (the original war time schedule) while Hitler adjusted his timetable based on his bank statement.

Germany did not have to declare war. By 1930s Hermany was again a force The French eventually left the

That is childish version of history: 80m people blindly followed one evil man to the hell.

In fact, the 1929 great depression hit German so badly, they simply didn't have any option but war: unlike today, in 1930s, the world market was basically controlled by colonial empires like UK/France, or US. In long term, Germany simply couldn't compete with these countries on a relatively fair base as long as this system still existed.

The only difference between Hitler and the German elite circle was: Germany elites believed that they can wait until 1944 (the original war time schedule) while Hitler adjusted his timetable based on his bank statement.

I don't think it's childish. You have to remember thst all countries and all major European powers suffered from the great depression. But UK, France, USSR, US or other powers did not invade other countries or start WW2 just because they were have economic problems.

What you don't understand that Hitler from the start wanted the revival of the German empire, an even bigger German empire. He believed that the Germanic peiple were so superior that they are destined to rule Europe. And he saw himself as the best person to do it.

The German grievances against the unfair terms of WW1 surrender and the succeeding great deptession simply provided Hitler the best recruitment tools for his mad designs.

It is this megalomania that lead to Hitler's greatest successes and ultimately his downfull.

 

[no smoking]

I don't think it's childish. You have to remember thst all countries and all major European powers suffered from the great depression. But UK, France, USSR, US or other powers did not invade other countries or start WW2 just because they were have economic problems.

Well, that was because no one was hit as bad as they were and each one in your list had more financial means than Germany.


Treaty of Versailles not only took away 13% of German land in Europe but all of her colonies. These territories had 30%-75% of various of Germany natural resources and major industrial capabilities. On top of that, German was required to pay totally 138b gold marks as reparation which equals 347% of 1913 German GDP (the debt was paid off until 2010 after huge discount).


With all these impacts, btw 1924-1928, the German was living on 2 things: export and US loans. When depression begin, US banks withdrew their loan and everyone was shutting down their market with high tariffs. Germany export fell by 48% between 1928 & 1932 and their unemployment rate was 31.5% in 1932. In the same year, US 23.6%, both UK and France were around 15% and USSR was ZERO.


When dealing with this crisis, the Germany had little ammunition: when others had colonies (UK, France) or de facto colonies (US) to dump their products, Germany got none. Meanwhile, Germany government didn’t have financial reserve to carry out the economic stimulation because of reparation.

What you don't understand that Hitler from the start wanted the revival of the German empire, an even bigger German empire. He believed that the Germanic peiple were so superior that they are destined to rule Europe. And he saw himself as the best person to do it.

What he believed doesn’t matter, the issue is what the Germany elite class believe. Before the depression, his claim about the superiority of Germany only got him around 100,000 followers by 1928. But by 1932, the SA alone had over 400,000. This tells you what really attracted people: the bread promised instead of the superiority of Germany.

The German grievances against the unfair terms of WW1 surrender and the succeeding great deptession simply provided Hitler the best recruitment tools for his mad designs.

See, you answered your own question.
The unfair terms of the treaty and great depression were all realities as well as German's suffering. As long as these realities still exist, the suffering will continue. German's diplomatic effort to reduce reparation was rejected, their economic effort to pay off the debt was proved to be failure by 1929 crisis. It was clear to German elite class: only war can break this. At the time, there were only 2 candidates: either Hitler or Stalin.

 

[asianobserve]

Well, that was because no one was hit as bad as they were and each one in your list had more financial means than Germany.


Treaty of Versailles not only took away 13% of German land in Europe but all of her colonies. These territories had 30%-75% of various of Germany natural resources and major industrial capabilities. On top of that, German was required to pay totally 138b gold marks as reparation which equals 347% of 1913 German GDP (the debt was paid off until 2010 after huge discount).


With all these impacts, btw 1924-1928, the German was living on 2 things: export and US loans. When depression begin, US banks withdrew their loan and everyone was shutting down their market with high tariffs. Germany export fell by 48% between 1928 & 1932 and their unemployment rate was 31.5% in 1932. In the same year, US 23.6%, both UK and France were around 15% and USSR was ZERO.


When dealing with this crisis, the Germany had little ammunition: when others had colonies (UK, France) or de facto colonies (US) to dump their products, Germany got none. Meanwhile, Germany government didn’t have financial reserve to carry out the economic stimulation because of reparation.





What he believed doesn’t matter, the issue is what the Germany elite class believe. Before the depression, his claim about the superiority of Germany only got him around 100,000 followers by 1928. But by 1932, the SA alone had over 400,000. This tells you what really attracted people: the bread promised instead of the superiority of Germany.




See, you answered your own question.
The unfair terms of the treaty and great depression were all realities as well as German's suffering. As long as these realities still exist, the suffering will continue. German's diplomatic effort to reduce reparation was rejected, their economic effort to pay off the debt was proved to be failure by 1929 crisis. It was clear to German elite class: only war can break this. At the time, there were only 2 candidates: either Hitler or Stalin.

Hitler does not have to declare WW2 to help the German economy. By late 1930s Germany was already out of tge depression and they already got back the industrisl Rhine. They even have a World class military even earlier. Just read how the Luftwaffe implemented the first carpet bombing campaign in history during the Spanish Civil War.

America too suffered from the great depression. But did Roosevelt invade Mexico and the rest of South America to bring the US out of the depression? No he did not. Instead, upon assuming office he unleashed an economic strategy, not a military strstegy.

So stop apologizing for Hitler.

 

[Haldiram]

So stop apologizing for Hitler.

^How to identify an American^ insert [teri_jali_na.gif] meme.


You captured a lot of land through invasions much before the world war.

Here's another one...

They refused your 'offer' so you invaded and stole their land.

 

[asianobserve]

^How to identify an American^ insert [teri_jali_na.gif] meme.


You captured a lot of land through invasions much before the world war.

View attachment 44187

View attachment 44190

Here's another one...

View attachment 44191

They refused your 'offer' so you invaded and stole their land.

You better read the thread before start commenting. It'rather embarassing.

 

[Haldiram]

You better read the thread before start commenting. It'rather embarassing.

You should be embarrassed. A nation founded on invasions and stolen land trying to give moral sermons to Germany about invasions. Very embarrassing indeed.