Warriors of Gujarat

[Simple_Guy]

Is it possible to make out from old painting whether horse is Kathiawari, Marwari, or something else.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Agree.

@civfanatic has a soft spot for Persians !

Compulsive obsession is more like it

On similar lines is his hate for North Indians.

But he shamelessly denies that. His says: He knows about Sikhs & Gorkhas. The rest deserve no respect & are just whiny wannabes.

Quite obvious who is the wannabe historian, here

 

[TrueSpirit]

Is it possible to make out from old painting whether horse is Kathiawari, Marwari, or something else.

Yes, this painting is well-delineated. Quite possible to determine the breed.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Is it possible to make out from old painting whether horse is Kathiawari, Marwari, or something else.

I would say, Marwari (inwards-facing ears) & a stout build unlike the more athletic Kathiawari.

Correct me if wrong.

 

[Simple_Guy]

Photo of a Marwari horse from British Telegraph newspaper. @TrueSpirit is right about the ears and stout build.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Photo of a Marwari horse from British Telegraph newspaper. @TrueSpirit is right about the ears and stout build.

Just to add. Though Kathiwadi breed also have somewhat similar ears but they are quite taller & leaner.

Further, the gait of Marwari horses is completely different from everyone else. From a video (of a strutting horse), it would be much easier to differentiate a Marwari specimen from the rest.

 

[Simple_Guy]

Sword making for Gujarati Warriors

The state of Gujarat which has seen glorious royal periods is known for the art of sword making and the interesting aspect lies in the fact that an occasion as grave as war was also regarded with regards in terms of aesthetics. The traditional aspect of sword making has infused its way into range of contemporary utilitarian objects maintaining their unique specialty of not loosing their sheen or sharpness year after year. Knives of various shapes and sizes, enameled hilts with engraved cases are a showcase of the metal craftsmen's art.

A range of knives and daggers with different kinds of blades and diverse sizes are specially fabricated keeping in mind the need and requirement of the consumer, each embellished with carvings and embossed patterns and not neglecting the aesthetic beauty. Pairs of scissors along with other cutting equipments are also a specialty, designed and manufactured for varied purposes and materials. Paper, fabric, vegetables, wires and the like, name the substance and metalsmiths of Gujarat design a striking, special tool for effortless cutting and chopping!

The art of designing and casting metal arms and artillery goes back to almost 1000 years in the state of Gujarat. The earliest documented history of swords or other forms of artillery is found in Jain miniatures going back to the fifteenth century. Persian and Mughal miniatures also illustrate varieties of armaments, stating the dexterity and skill of the metalsmiths. The metal smiths of Anjar in Kutch gathered scrap metal, smelted it and dexterously fashioned knives and swords with filigreed engravings, which were presented in the court of Kutch royalty. Some examples of these swords dating back two centuries are exhibited in the Kutch museum today. Like the Samurais the Luhaars treatment of the sword was a skilled process requiring hard labor and yielded a blade of tempered steel sharp enough to cut ringlets through the air.

Craft of Gujarat

 

[civfanatic]

Joke of the day.

The only person whom I remotely insulted on this thread is the Dogra troll who secretly admires Panjabis. I nowhere insulted Gujaratis, who are the subject of the thread.

Battle of Rajasthan which took place on Sindh borders.Are you really as clueless about history & reality, as you trying desperately to prove yourself ?

The last tme I checked, Rajasthan was Rajasthan (much of the fighting actually took place outside of Rajasthan, in south Gujarat and Malwa) and Sindh was Sindh. Since you are an expert on history, explain to me why Sindh has remained under continuous Muslim rule for the past 1300 years.

Persia was a cakewalk for Arabs. Whereas Arabs could never conquer India. It was only 500 years later that Ghori could make a base in India. It was all due to sacrifices of dauntless Rajputs.

Tell me how long Persia was under Arab rule, and compare it with how long the Indo-Gangetic Plain was under Turk/Mughal rule. The simple facts and not useless rhetoric will tell you all you need to know.

North Indians even today speak a Persianized language, and you have the gall to insult Persians. What insecure people.

 

[Virendra]

Almost all or a larger part of Rajasthan and Gujarat had been known as Gurjaratra (country ruled or protected by the Gurjars) or Gurjarabhumi (land of the Gurjars) for centuries prior to Mughal period

Not more than half I'd say, but yes still a part it is. There were other (not Gurjaratra) regions of Rajputana like Maru (Marwar) and Jangal (Bikaner) etc. Moreover, Gurjaratra was "north Gujarat+SW Rajasthan", instead of "whole Gujarat and majority of Rajasthan".

About the origin. It is still debatable whether Gurjaratra got it name from Gurjars or the Gurjars got their name from Gurjaratra.

Uddotana's prakrit creation 'Kuvalayamala' from 779 CE Jalor, Rajasthan (contemporary to early Pratihara times) is making reference to the adjoining territories of Pratihara Kingdom. It calles them - Maru, Malava, Gurjar, Lata, Madhyadesa, Takka, and Sindhu.

Hiuen Tsang writes about a Kingdom with its capital at pi-lo-mo-lo (modern Bheenmal near Abu, Rajasthan) like this:
"The king is of the Kshatriya caste. He is just twenty years old, He is distinguished for wisdom and he is courageous. He is a deep believer in the law of Buddha and highly honours men of distinguished ability." He has called this kingdom ku-che-lo (Gurjara).

The 'Harsha Charita' of Banabhatta talks about Prabhakarvardhana of Thaneswar fighting the Hunas, the king of Sindhu (modern Sindh), the king of Gurjara (modern Gujarat and parts of Rajasthan), the lord of Gandhara (northwest), the ruler of Lata (southern Gujarat), and that of Malava (western Madhya Pradesh).
Epigraphical records of Broach Gurjars mention Pratihara Kings lineage as being "the lineage of the kings of Gurjara", like this - "Gurjara nripa vamsa".
Rajor inscription 959 CE has a feudatory of the Imperial Pratiharas named Malthandeva, describing himself as - gurjara-pratiharanvayah.
Translations differ from a) a Pratihara from Gurjara (place) .. to b) a Pratihara from Gurjara (tribe).
Problem with attaching the tribe meaning is that normally the clan name precedes the tribe name. Hence it doesn't seem plausible.
Inscription further talks about the agrarian people of the region as: Tathaitat pratyasanna Sri Gurjjara vahita samasta-ksetra sametah.
Translations differ from a) all the neighbouring fields cultivated by the inhabitants of Gurjara region .. to b) all the neighbouring fields cultivated by the Gurjara tribe.
Problem with attaching the tribe meaning here is that it implies 1) a huge population of Gurjar tribe 2) that is agrarian (nor martial/pastoral).
Not to forget that we've been told only the warlike elements of the foreign tribe colonized Rajasthan. Huge population is again not plausible.
It is common knowledge that Gurjars today form only a tiny percentage of modern Rajasthan and Gujarat's population.

Even in late medieval and modern history the word Gurjar was being used in territorial sense, rather than tribal, in certain parts of India.
Rajputana gazetteer 1879 reports that in Marwar the word Gurjar is used to designate Gujarat. Then the 1883 Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency reports that in Maharashtra the vani (vanik i.e. traders) were named after the provinces of their origin; hence the word Gurjar was used for a Vani from Gujarat while Marwari was used for a Marwar based Vani.
---------

I would still concede that it is possible that some people named as Gurjars in ancient times might have gone to present day Gujarat and thus the place got named Gurjaratra. That doesn't mean every dynasty/clan/King found in Gujarat ought to have been linked to those Gurjars somehow.
There are plenty instances in history for both - people getting names by places and vice versa.
Most importantly the Imperial pratihars in their inscriptions do not mention the Gurjar term in clan/tribe sense at all.
Lastly, the communities like the Gurjar Kshatriyas, Gurjar Vanias, Gurjar Jains, and Gurjar Oswals, all live in the state of Gujarat and speak the Gujarati language. But but but .. they are not found anywhere outside Gurjaratra. Only the pastorals looking for moderately wet grasslands went out to Punjab (possibly driven out due to drought/famine in Gurjaratra).
Likewise the 'Gurjara Brahmans' are group of brahmins found only in Gurjaratra region and are purely defined by geography (not gothra/clan etc).
North Indian brahmins are Gaud brahmins and south ones are called Dravida brahmins. 'Goud Gurjara' is a clan of Goud Brahmins settled in Gurjara region and it is a part of the 'Gurjar Brahmins' grouping.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Virendra]

Overall, the 3 main powers that we owe our civilizational continuity & existence to are : Rajputs, Marathas & Sikhs.

Please add Ahoms in the East.

Vijaynagar comes a very distant fourth for obvious reasons.

I think Vijaynagar's military prowess was no less than their northern peers but just that its role in fighting medieval invaders is limited to fewer centuries in comparison. Reasons are less about one being greater than the other and more about the reach of invaders in various times/centuries.
I find it bitter to compare our own people like this. We do no justice to them. Lets desist from this going further.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[TrueSpirit]

North Indians even today speak a Persianized language, and you have the gall to insult Persians. What insecure people.

Ok, North Indians have the gall to insult the hallowed Persians !!!!

Some on DFI even go to the extent of deriding/snubbing the Mighty Han !!!

Ultimate blasphemy, isn't it ?

It is easy to see who is high on rhetoric & who on substance.

That the North Indians continue to dominate Indian Army (especially Rajasthan, UP, Uttaranchal, Punjab, Himachal, Haryana, J&K) is enough of a fact to see who has the balls & who are agents of vanquished-imperialists.........

The only person whom I remotely insulted on this thread is the Dogra troll who secretly admires Panjabis.

You derive pleasure in insulting Indians because you know nothing (being a complete fake), marred by massive inferiority complex (due to reasons of your own) & have a compulsive obsession in playing the ultimate vitriol-spewer on DFI. Utter disgrace in the name of DFI moderator.

Everyone watching this thread has realized that.

 

[Virendra]

Is it possible to make out from old painting whether horse is Kathiawari, Marwari, or something else.

For the one who knows them really well, yes.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Please add Ahoms in the East.

Well, I would have added, had I planned a longer list

I think Vijaynagar's military prowess was no less than their northern peers but just that its role in fighting medieval invaders is limited to fewer centuries in comparison.

That is my whole point. & that's what I explicitly mentioned. They came in late, left early.

Though, they were inspirational in their own way because even Shivaji grew up hearing their stories. They had lot more going for them which is beyond the scope of discussion.

I find it bitter to compare our own people like this. We do no justice to them. Lets desist from this going further.

Please have a look at how this thread has deteriorated due to 1 single culprit who openly hates North Indians (he is pissed-off now because a North Indian like me had the gall to deride the Persians, see his posts below) & considers Rajputs as "whiny-wannabes".

He is afraid of looking at the composition of the Indian Army because it exposes his claims against North-Indians as fake & rhetorical.

How can someone miss his consistency in insulting Indians & showcasing Indians has perpetually inferior to Persians ? It is hard to imagine that this guy has the slightest inkling about history beyond google.

& I do not just find this attitude, bitter. But find it being delusional, ungrateful & much more......

Can this troll be asked to desist from his relentless hate-spewing. It would do a whole lot good to this thread & DFI.

 

[Singh]

Dogras were great warriors. Read up and and talk less, I would suggest. Even most punjabis/sikhs would admit that dogras were one of the best warriors. You never heard of Zorawar Singh.

This thread is not about Dogras. And you are not even a Dogra because you are a Brahmin. Dogra warriors exclusively refers to Rajputs Dogras.

Zorawar Singh was named after Sahibzada Zorawar Singh the son of Guru Gobind Singh. He was a Sikh and a General in the Sikh Army.

This has been discussed in other threads.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[Decklander]

This thread is not about Dogras. And you are not even a Dogra because you are a Brahmin. Dogra warriors exclusively refers to Rajputs Dogras.

Zorawar Singh was named after Sahibzada Zorawar Singh the son of Guru Gobind Singh. He was a Sikh and a General in the Sikh Army.

This has been discussed in other threads.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

I wud like to correct you here. The Dogras whether brahmins or Rajputs are the warriors. Even one of the best known Sikh generals Banda Bahadur was the son of a Bhardwaj Dogra Brahmin. I am a bhardwaj gotra brahmin and My family has a tradition of warfare. We are not the pundits that you know of who perform rituals in temples.

 

[Singh]

ok, I didn't know that.

Adam khor = cannibal or one who eats man
Muft khor = freeloader or one who eats what he gets for free
Haram Khor = one who eats haram food or one who earns money through haram means

 

[Singh]

Unable to understand the relevance of Yugas here. As a recent research has indicated, people married across castes till 2000 years back.
Are we trying to suggest that Kaliyuga froze the castes in this way?
What I know is that the castes that we see today and in medieval centuries, aren't a direct derivative of the vedic varnas. This has been accepted by the likes of Romilla Thapar as well. There's been a lot of shuffle between the two kind of setups. I believe it was this fluid caste system only, filling the gap.
As far as ANI-ASI are concerned, their mixing would've begun a long time back; longer than 4,000 YBP. The differences (genetic or otherwise) aren't fully dissolved. Probably due to endogamy, gothra rules and Ice age strengthened geo-climatic barriers.

Regards,
Virendra

Yes, I am suggesting that the research's time period coincides with the Kaliyuga time period.
The research argued that the endogamy was firmly established 1900 years ago across India before that Indian subcontinent was one big melting pot.
Perhaps, this can also help us ascertain the authenticity and the time period of certain texts.

 

[TrueSpirit]

North Indians even today speak a Persianized language, and you have the gall to insult Persians. What insecure people.

Persia got Islamized completely while India is still a Hindu-majority country (85% + Hindus & indigenous religion). That is, despite India being under attack for over 1300 years.

Enough to show who had the balls & resolve & who prevailed.

Persians were licking Arab boots in no time, while Indians successfully defended till the end & we are in a way better shape than outcast nations like Persia which is ruled by religious fanatics/extremists (de-facto) & has little worth respecting, except its gas & some oil.

India is among the 3 major contenders for UN Security Council while Iran is pariah nation whose ruling regime exercises its power through extremist zealots like Revolutionary Guards & whose most popular export other than gas (even that has been sanctioned now) is Hezbollah.

While India competes with China & is the world's fourth largest economy & fourth most powerful nation in terms of hard power (quantifiable) as well as sixth in soft-power (subjective measure), Iran is nowhere to be seen.

And you still have the gall to compare India (world's sole surviving pagan civilization) with an international nobody (rather, a leper to most nations) like Iran (the legatee of Persian Empire).

So much for your beloved Persians

 

[Singh]

I wud like to correct you here. The Dogras whether brahmins or Rajputs are the warriors. Even one of the best known Sikh generals Banda Bahadur was the son of a Bhardwaj Dogra Brahmin. I am a bhardwaj gotra brahmin and My family has a tradition of warfare. We are not the pundits that you know of who perform rituals in temples.

From my interactions Dogra invariably is used by Rajputs to describe themselves.
Most of the celebrated Dogra Military Hereoes have been Rajputs.

Banda Singh Bahadur was born in Rajput/Dogra Family as per almost all respected and authentic Sikh sources. In any case his achievements are wholly and solely attributable to the Sikh community. So were most of Zorawar Singh's.

 

[Decklander]

The truth is that he was a dogra Bhardwaj Brahmin. he is confused to be a Rajput bcoz Bhardwaj gotra is common to Suryavansh Rajputs and Brahmins. There is no denying the fact that he became a Banda of Dashmesh who converted him to Sikhism. My own cobrother is a Bhardwaj Brahmin and a Dogra and winner of Presidents medal for bravery for action against terrorists in J&K as part of SOG of JKP.