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Replaced logic with rhetoric now!!
WAR 1971
- Thread starter LETHALFORCE
- Start date
Cannot deny the networking part. Even against enemies the war has to end at some point and a new beginnings made.
But what the hell is this pop-pshychology "There is no ' trust' in international relations. There are only interests."
If a man cannot be trusted with his interests then how the hell can his interests enable any trust at all.
Or IOW, if the interests are really so fleeting then what is to say that this pragmatic self-interest will not change again and again and again. Is that how nations survive and prosper?
Capricorn
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LETHALFORCE
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This event became the catalyst for the Indian nuclear weapons program. Smiling Buddha was successfully tested in 1974.
Hari Sud
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There has been one incident which during 1999 Kargil operation which was briefly reported and then it disappeared from the public eye completely.
During the height of Kargil war, Indian naval flotilla was approaching Karachi to blockade it or burn the harbour down (we do not know the details) that the Indian flotilla commander received a fictitious message on his top secret communication network and he was ordered to turn back, which it did and Karachi survived.
It was later learnt that, that top secret message did not come from Indian High Command. Somebody (most likely US) had broken thru the chain of communication network and sent that fictitious message to turn the flotilla back. It was done not to further humiliate Pakistan any further. They were already loosing the Kargil war.
It was then realized that the India naval high command needs a secure communication network. It was then that the C41 network for communication especially in naval communication was ordered from abroad, again with the full knowledge of US. It was rush implemented.
US had been playing a dubious role all along in the last 70 years history of India - Pakistan conflict. It always sided with Pakistan. This naval incident during 1999 Kargil operation was US payback for useful services rendered by Pakistan to the U.S. And CIA during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
Does any forum member has additional knowledge of this incident.
During the height of Kargil war, Indian naval flotilla was approaching Karachi to blockade it or burn the harbour down (we do not know the details) that the Indian flotilla commander received a fictitious message on his top secret communication network and he was ordered to turn back, which it did and Karachi survived.
It was later learnt that, that top secret message did not come from Indian High Command. Somebody (most likely US) had broken thru the chain of communication network and sent that fictitious message to turn the flotilla back. It was done not to further humiliate Pakistan any further. They were already loosing the Kargil war.
It was then realized that the India naval high command needs a secure communication network. It was then that the C41 network for communication especially in naval communication was ordered from abroad, again with the full knowledge of US. It was rush implemented.
US had been playing a dubious role all along in the last 70 years history of India - Pakistan conflict. It always sided with Pakistan. This naval incident during 1999 Kargil operation was US payback for useful services rendered by Pakistan to the U.S. And CIA during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
Does any forum member has additional knowledge of this incident.
pmaitra
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I am not sure and I don't think this could be correct.
While I do not doubt CIA penetration in the Indian establishment, I don't think India was planning to attack Karachi. The naval blockade was meant to cut off Pakistan from external aid, such as fuel for its military, thus ensuring that in the event India launched an attack along the East Punjab-West Punjab front, the Pakistanis would not be able to sustain long, and capitulate.
However, you can search and post sources if this has been reported elsewhere.
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Actually, what @I_PLAY_BAD said is not rhetoric, but fact and logical. US is the only democratic country which has been systematically destroying democracies all over the world and supporting despots, and claiming to be spreading democracy. If that is not double faced, I don't know what is. There're many more instances which proves what @I_PLAY_BAD 's point. Once I get back to my PC, I will give you a detail logical view of how much of a traitorous piece of $hit the whole USA regimes from the days after the WWII have been proven to be.
I_PLAY_BAD
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And, USA may have had a role in 1947 partition. I have been hearing this rumour. Don't know how far it is true. Clarify....
Alien
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Vijay Diwas: How India has forgotten the heroes of the 1971 Indo-Pak war
There is an old saying in the Army in Punjabi "Jine jeet nahi wekhi usay jeetna kaun sikhayega." Loosely translated it means that if one has not seen victory, how can you teach ‘em to win a war.
Today, 16 December, is the 45th anniversary of the 1971 India–Pakistan war, the first war after World War-II that the Indian Army won conclusively. The only war that the independent Indian Army planned, executed and carried out with precision and captured 93,000 prisoners.
Indian Army personnel pay their respects to martyrs of the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971 for the Liberation of Bangladesh, during a function in Kolkata on 16 December 2012. AFP
The trouble is that Indian polity wants to forget the 1971 war. They want to forget the aggressive attitude that once occupied centrestage. Even the Congress which could use it very effectively, as it was after Indira Gandhi’s resolve that enabled the war, never really celebrated it.
It was the first major victory for a young Indian democracy and helped strengthen the confidence of the leadership and population. Subsequent generations and populations want to forget it completely. On the other hand the Kargil war which was a misadventure thwarted by Indian Army looms larger in debate and is more celebrated. There is even a Kargil Vijay Diwas, while the 1971 war is referred to as Vijay Diwas. The irony is that the posts that were occupied and conquered in 1971 were the same ones which were occupied by the Pakistan Army in 1999.
Why is it important to remember 1971? It was the first time that the Indian leadership decided to take a decisive action on moral grounds. It was the first time that India violated the UN charter. It was the first time that India handled pressure from US, China and Europe. It was the first time that India decided that an error made by the British in division needed to be corrected by force. It was the first time that India decided that the Bangladeshi immigrant problem could only be addressed if the country was given its legitimacy. There were many other firsts and some of them are also the last for a country that has now forgotten its heroes of this war.
Successive governments have looked at accomplishments of the Indian armed forces as almost an embarrassment, particularly the Congress which ignored the ’71 war anniversary. The expectation from the current government is not to ignore the anniversary and bring it back into public discourse.
There are several reasons for bringing back the victory in the ’71 war into public discourse. It is not only because it was a victory and our armed forces need to be celebrated. Lord Meghnad Desai puts it well, "If we continue to be embarrassed about our Armed forces, we will never be able to establish leadership in Asia. And it is especially relevant now as Pakistan is not a threat, it is a pin prick, our competitive threat lies in China."
The ’71 war cannot be discussed without the debacle and disgrace that India faced in ’62 war at the hands of China. We cannot forget that how ill-prepared the Indian Army was for that conflict. We should not forget the lesson that a nation that ignores its army cannot afford peace. This is also one of the reason that Congress cannot celebrate ’71 as it reminds them of the debacle of ’62.
The 60’s was a lost decade for India, two successive wars ’62 and ‘65 a drought, importing food grains from US, economy was shot too bits, rupee was devalued, Congress was facing internal trouble. Led by Pandit Nehru, India was on a moral high during the period 1947 to 1961. His idea of a moral world order collapsed in 1962 with India not measuring up to the Chinese. Suddenly, India found itself without friends, even those of the non-aligned variety. India has to court America, and the western powers that it has avoided earlier. Pandit Nehru was also forced to negotiate peace with Pakistan. India was willing to cede a sizeable area to Pakistan as per YD Gundevia Outside the Archives(1969). Gundevia was a foreign secretary during Nehru and Lal Bahadur Shastri’s time.
Late Narasimha Rao, the erstwhile prime minister says in his autobiographical semi-fictional work The Insider about impact of the 1962 War: "India’s image plummeted considerably after the 1962 debacle. The focus on economic development became diluted. The obsession with victory and defeat in war revived atavistic notions. It reminded the people that India had never won a major war throughout her long history. She had been a perpetual loser in all encounters. Many began to interpret the country’s philosophy and heritage as the foundation of its weakness."
Then the ’71 war happened or was planned and executed with perfection by the Indian armed forces. All three forces Army, Navy and Air force played a stellar role in executing a pre-planned campaign. While political experts may be divided about whether it was planned or not, military experts are clear that the campaign was planned and executed one.
Lord Desai writes in The Rediscovery of India: "Indira Gandhi had achieved the impossible. She had dismembered India’s main enemy, permanently reduced its territory and humiliated it militarily…[p. 353]
He adds, "In Pakistan the event was seen as the first defeat of Muslim armies by a Hindu army in a thousand years [p. 354], Though, Desai says this should not be over rated as there have been several victories before.
"The liberation of Bangladesh did several things for Indira Gandhi and India. It removed any residual feelings of inferiority about Indian Army’s fighting powers." But was that all!
Brigadier Omkar Singh Gorayya, who was the first Indian military leader to enter Dhaka, and is releasing a book on it next month says, "I find it strange that we do nothing to invest emotional content in a win that has occurred after 800 years of foreign domination. Today 1971 War is all but forgotten by the nation. Today, the anniversary is only celebrated in small cantonment functions, as if the armed forces fought for themselves not the country. It is time we invest some cultural and emotional content in the 1971 War. Geopolitical space is also about perception."
It is especially important this year as the world is commemorating the start of the First World War. Indian Army’s exploits in Europe, their landing in Marseilles is being celebrated by the French and here we refuse to recognize the exploits of independent Indian Army victory.
If the Europeans can celebrate the exploits of Indian Armed forces so many decades later, can we not pay respect to the Martyrs of the ’71 war.
K Yatish Rajawat is a senior journalist, based in New Delhi who tweet @yatishrajawat
http://www.firstpost.com/india/vija...-heroes-of-the-1971-indo-pak-war-1850939.html
There is an old saying in the Army in Punjabi "Jine jeet nahi wekhi usay jeetna kaun sikhayega." Loosely translated it means that if one has not seen victory, how can you teach ‘em to win a war.
Today, 16 December, is the 45th anniversary of the 1971 India–Pakistan war, the first war after World War-II that the Indian Army won conclusively. The only war that the independent Indian Army planned, executed and carried out with precision and captured 93,000 prisoners.
Indian Army personnel pay their respects to martyrs of the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971 for the Liberation of Bangladesh, during a function in Kolkata on 16 December 2012. AFP
The trouble is that Indian polity wants to forget the 1971 war. They want to forget the aggressive attitude that once occupied centrestage. Even the Congress which could use it very effectively, as it was after Indira Gandhi’s resolve that enabled the war, never really celebrated it.
It was the first major victory for a young Indian democracy and helped strengthen the confidence of the leadership and population. Subsequent generations and populations want to forget it completely. On the other hand the Kargil war which was a misadventure thwarted by Indian Army looms larger in debate and is more celebrated. There is even a Kargil Vijay Diwas, while the 1971 war is referred to as Vijay Diwas. The irony is that the posts that were occupied and conquered in 1971 were the same ones which were occupied by the Pakistan Army in 1999.
Why is it important to remember 1971? It was the first time that the Indian leadership decided to take a decisive action on moral grounds. It was the first time that India violated the UN charter. It was the first time that India handled pressure from US, China and Europe. It was the first time that India decided that an error made by the British in division needed to be corrected by force. It was the first time that India decided that the Bangladeshi immigrant problem could only be addressed if the country was given its legitimacy. There were many other firsts and some of them are also the last for a country that has now forgotten its heroes of this war.
Successive governments have looked at accomplishments of the Indian armed forces as almost an embarrassment, particularly the Congress which ignored the ’71 war anniversary. The expectation from the current government is not to ignore the anniversary and bring it back into public discourse.
There are several reasons for bringing back the victory in the ’71 war into public discourse. It is not only because it was a victory and our armed forces need to be celebrated. Lord Meghnad Desai puts it well, "If we continue to be embarrassed about our Armed forces, we will never be able to establish leadership in Asia. And it is especially relevant now as Pakistan is not a threat, it is a pin prick, our competitive threat lies in China."
The ’71 war cannot be discussed without the debacle and disgrace that India faced in ’62 war at the hands of China. We cannot forget that how ill-prepared the Indian Army was for that conflict. We should not forget the lesson that a nation that ignores its army cannot afford peace. This is also one of the reason that Congress cannot celebrate ’71 as it reminds them of the debacle of ’62.
The 60’s was a lost decade for India, two successive wars ’62 and ‘65 a drought, importing food grains from US, economy was shot too bits, rupee was devalued, Congress was facing internal trouble. Led by Pandit Nehru, India was on a moral high during the period 1947 to 1961. His idea of a moral world order collapsed in 1962 with India not measuring up to the Chinese. Suddenly, India found itself without friends, even those of the non-aligned variety. India has to court America, and the western powers that it has avoided earlier. Pandit Nehru was also forced to negotiate peace with Pakistan. India was willing to cede a sizeable area to Pakistan as per YD Gundevia Outside the Archives(1969). Gundevia was a foreign secretary during Nehru and Lal Bahadur Shastri’s time.
Late Narasimha Rao, the erstwhile prime minister says in his autobiographical semi-fictional work The Insider about impact of the 1962 War: "India’s image plummeted considerably after the 1962 debacle. The focus on economic development became diluted. The obsession with victory and defeat in war revived atavistic notions. It reminded the people that India had never won a major war throughout her long history. She had been a perpetual loser in all encounters. Many began to interpret the country’s philosophy and heritage as the foundation of its weakness."
Then the ’71 war happened or was planned and executed with perfection by the Indian armed forces. All three forces Army, Navy and Air force played a stellar role in executing a pre-planned campaign. While political experts may be divided about whether it was planned or not, military experts are clear that the campaign was planned and executed one.
Lord Desai writes in The Rediscovery of India: "Indira Gandhi had achieved the impossible. She had dismembered India’s main enemy, permanently reduced its territory and humiliated it militarily…[p. 353]
He adds, "In Pakistan the event was seen as the first defeat of Muslim armies by a Hindu army in a thousand years [p. 354], Though, Desai says this should not be over rated as there have been several victories before.
"The liberation of Bangladesh did several things for Indira Gandhi and India. It removed any residual feelings of inferiority about Indian Army’s fighting powers." But was that all!
Brigadier Omkar Singh Gorayya, who was the first Indian military leader to enter Dhaka, and is releasing a book on it next month says, "I find it strange that we do nothing to invest emotional content in a win that has occurred after 800 years of foreign domination. Today 1971 War is all but forgotten by the nation. Today, the anniversary is only celebrated in small cantonment functions, as if the armed forces fought for themselves not the country. It is time we invest some cultural and emotional content in the 1971 War. Geopolitical space is also about perception."
It is especially important this year as the world is commemorating the start of the First World War. Indian Army’s exploits in Europe, their landing in Marseilles is being celebrated by the French and here we refuse to recognize the exploits of independent Indian Army victory.
If the Europeans can celebrate the exploits of Indian Armed forces so many decades later, can we not pay respect to the Martyrs of the ’71 war.
K Yatish Rajawat is a senior journalist, based in New Delhi who tweet @yatishrajawat
http://www.firstpost.com/india/vija...-heroes-of-the-1971-indo-pak-war-1850939.html
Bengal_Tiger
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Egypt flays Pakistan’s intervention in Bangladesh’s internal issues
Senior Correspondent, bdnews24.com
Published: 2016-01-06 14:37:26.0 BdST Updated: 2016-01-06 14:37:26.0 BdST
0
2
26
“Egypt will be the first country to say ‘no’, if Pakistan intervenes in Bangladesh’s domestic issue,” he said, when journalists sought his comment on Bangladesh’s war crimes trial on Wednesday.
The ambassador, who is also the dean of diplomatic corps in Dhaka, hosted a ‘tea party’ at his officefor the new executives of the Diplomatic Correspondents’ Association, Bangladesh (DCAB).
Pakistan has been criticising the ongoing war crimes trial as those who are being tried collaborated with them in the 1971.
Bangladesh won independence after the nine-month bloody war.
On Wednesday, the Supreme Court upheld the death sentence of Jamaat-e-Islami chief Motiur Rahman Nizami who orchestrated the massacre of Bangladesh’s best brains in 1971 using his ruthless Al-Badr militia.
Egypt from the beginning has been supporting the war crimes trial.
The ambassador said Cairo “cannot comment on internal issues” of a country.
“We always support Bangladesh,” he said, mentioning that Cairo established diplomatic ties with Bangladesh soon after its independence.
Bangladesh being an independent country has its own right to take its own decision and maintain independence, the ambassador said.
He said Bangladesh has its own right to protect it from any kind of intervention from any countries including Pakistan.
http://bdnews24.com/bangladesh/2016...s-intervention-in-bangladeshs-internal-issues
Senior Correspondent, bdnews24.com
Published: 2016-01-06 14:37:26.0 BdST Updated: 2016-01-06 14:37:26.0 BdST
-
Egyptian Ambassador Mahmoud Ezzat is the dean of diplomatic corps in Dhaka.
0
2
26
“Egypt will be the first country to say ‘no’, if Pakistan intervenes in Bangladesh’s domestic issue,” he said, when journalists sought his comment on Bangladesh’s war crimes trial on Wednesday.
The ambassador, who is also the dean of diplomatic corps in Dhaka, hosted a ‘tea party’ at his officefor the new executives of the Diplomatic Correspondents’ Association, Bangladesh (DCAB).
Pakistan has been criticising the ongoing war crimes trial as those who are being tried collaborated with them in the 1971.
Bangladesh won independence after the nine-month bloody war.
On Wednesday, the Supreme Court upheld the death sentence of Jamaat-e-Islami chief Motiur Rahman Nizami who orchestrated the massacre of Bangladesh’s best brains in 1971 using his ruthless Al-Badr militia.
Egypt from the beginning has been supporting the war crimes trial.
The ambassador said Cairo “cannot comment on internal issues” of a country.
“We always support Bangladesh,” he said, mentioning that Cairo established diplomatic ties with Bangladesh soon after its independence.
Bangladesh being an independent country has its own right to take its own decision and maintain independence, the ambassador said.
He said Bangladesh has its own right to protect it from any kind of intervention from any countries including Pakistan.
http://bdnews24.com/bangladesh/2016...s-intervention-in-bangladeshs-internal-issues
Bengal_Tiger
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Very welcome news.
1. The Arab world is important to Bangladesh as the birthplace of Islam and also contemporary effect on Islamic thinking including that of radical groups such as Jamaat e Islami. The Gulf region is particularly important due to the huge amount of Bangladeshi expatriate workers there.
2. I always felt that there was an unwritten rule amongst Arabs - besides some socialist-orientated ones such as the old Baathist Iraq, Algeria etc - that Pakistanis must always be preferred to Bangladesh, even that they were seen as "more Muslim".
I am not sure how valid this suspicion is but it does have some basis.
3. The Egyptian ambassador was clearly supporting Bangladesh and explicitly mentioned Pakistan.
Good that the biggest country in the Arab world supports Bangladesh on this key national issue and has issued a not so subtle criticism of Pakistan.
Turkey: pro-Pakistan/pro-Jamaati, anti-Bangladesh.
Saudi: pro-Pakistani but showed strong lack of support for Jamaat in the past few years aside from their economic sanctions on Bangladesh e.g. labour ban.
Iran: Could care less about Jamaatis, far from pro-Pakistan.
Indonesia, Malaysia neutral in any Bangladeshi-Pakistani dispute, similar to Iran though Iran has certain issues including trust issues with Pakistan.
Algeria, Egypt, Kuwait: pro-Bangladesh.
The rest are either unimportant or irrelevant but in general on a government to government level they could care less about Jamaati war criminals, though in some countries perhaps elements of their elite are influenced by the pro-Jamaati propaganda widespread in the Arab world.
This criticism of Pakistan by Egypt (and that is what it is, in diplomacy you have to be ultra "diplomatic" ) is a sign to the Pakistani military that they cannot use the "Muslim brothers", "Muslim unity" card against Bangladesh i.e. Pakistan was trying to preserve a Muslim state, fought for Muslim unity and is defending those who fought to do all that i.e. Jamaati war criminals.
This narrative does not work on the biggest state in the Arab world.
Any educated Muslim would know that the 1971 war was when the elected majority government was denied power and a Assad-style butchering of east Pakistanis took place with the subsequent defeat of the illegal west Pakistani military junta in east Pakistan.
1. The Arab world is important to Bangladesh as the birthplace of Islam and also contemporary effect on Islamic thinking including that of radical groups such as Jamaat e Islami. The Gulf region is particularly important due to the huge amount of Bangladeshi expatriate workers there.
2. I always felt that there was an unwritten rule amongst Arabs - besides some socialist-orientated ones such as the old Baathist Iraq, Algeria etc - that Pakistanis must always be preferred to Bangladesh, even that they were seen as "more Muslim".
I am not sure how valid this suspicion is but it does have some basis.
3. The Egyptian ambassador was clearly supporting Bangladesh and explicitly mentioned Pakistan.
Good that the biggest country in the Arab world supports Bangladesh on this key national issue and has issued a not so subtle criticism of Pakistan.
Turkey: pro-Pakistan/pro-Jamaati, anti-Bangladesh.
Saudi: pro-Pakistani but showed strong lack of support for Jamaat in the past few years aside from their economic sanctions on Bangladesh e.g. labour ban.
Iran: Could care less about Jamaatis, far from pro-Pakistan.
Indonesia, Malaysia neutral in any Bangladeshi-Pakistani dispute, similar to Iran though Iran has certain issues including trust issues with Pakistan.
Algeria, Egypt, Kuwait: pro-Bangladesh.
The rest are either unimportant or irrelevant but in general on a government to government level they could care less about Jamaati war criminals, though in some countries perhaps elements of their elite are influenced by the pro-Jamaati propaganda widespread in the Arab world.
This criticism of Pakistan by Egypt (and that is what it is, in diplomacy you have to be ultra "diplomatic" ) is a sign to the Pakistani military that they cannot use the "Muslim brothers", "Muslim unity" card against Bangladesh i.e. Pakistan was trying to preserve a Muslim state, fought for Muslim unity and is defending those who fought to do all that i.e. Jamaati war criminals.
This narrative does not work on the biggest state in the Arab world.
Any educated Muslim would know that the 1971 war was when the elected majority government was denied power and a Assad-style butchering of east Pakistanis took place with the subsequent defeat of the illegal west Pakistani military junta in east Pakistan.
Mikesingh
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Yep! There are many famous Indians too on the prestigious Time Magazine's covers who have done India proud. Get a load of some of them....
And here's one of Pakistan's favorite son on Time magazine cover after he was eliminated in Pakistan...
The difference in perception is striking!!
And here's one of Pakistan's favorite son on Time magazine cover after he was eliminated in Pakistan...
The difference in perception is striking!!
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I thought all the Indian people who made it on time magazine would all be haramis like memon, Nehru, Gandhi but this is fine.
Mikesingh
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It's not about licking white blue or green ass. It's about Indians on the cover of one of the most popular and prestigious magazines in the world.
Mahakaal
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Read last part of his post, u will understand...
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Mahakaal
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Also Malya and Gandhi family, the baap of all haramis
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Kshatriya87
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I do not think @Mikesingh is a "white ass licker". He's just putting things into perspective.
