WAR 1971

sesha_maruthi27

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Re: India Pakistan 1971 War - Stories of the Indo-Pak War 1971 by sam

I think it is HIGH TIME that we provide west pakistan the freedom prom pakistan and liberate them from the terrorist ISI and its supported terror organizations ........
 

Kunal Biswas

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Pakistanis rejoice about Ghauris and Ghaznis, realising little that their forefathers were actually the victims of those treacherous invaders.Let this picture of December 1971 be a reminder of their humiliation in our hands and the fact that their entire progeny is borne out of those coward weaklings who, in the past, chose a low life in exchange for their self respect.And we carry the blood of those defiant fighters who fought tyranny and treachery their entire life and never surrendered. We know peace, we know war, alike.And that's the reason we shall always keep crushing these wannabe Arabs, time and again.
 

Redhawk

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If any battle demonstrated the absolute importance of local air superiority over the battlefield, it was the Battle of Longewala. India's decisive aerial victory over Pakistani armour in this battle proved was the perfect illustration of the crucial importance of air-power on the battlefield.



Tank tracks show the desperate manoeuvres of the Pakistani armour in trying to present a moving and harder target to the IAF ground-attack fighter-bombers.
 
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Lions Of Punjab

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In a startling revelation in a recently published book authored by former Indian Air Force (IAF) pilot Wing Commander (Retired) Dhirendra S. Jafa, American military officers interrogated 1971 Indian Air Force prisoners of war (PoWs) in Pakistan in an attempt get information on Indian Air Force navigational techniques which were used with pinpoint accuracy to target Pakistani air fields.

In chapter seven of his 241-page book titled "Death Wasn't Painful", Wing Commander Jafa reveals that a well-known American flyer and test pilot was brought to his prison cell by a Pakistani officer around the 25th of December, 1971, who he saw as a symbol of the US Seventh Fleet, "the coercive, high-handed, self-righteous aggressiveness of the ugly American."

The American military officer wanted know how the Indian Air pilots were accurately targeting Pakistani airfields at night.

Wing Commander Jafa recalls that the American officer interrogating him was taken aback by his (Jafa's) initial hostility, but recovered quickly enough to avoid a "slanging match" and begin a "dialogue" (read interrogation).

Wing Commander Jafa mentions that he was taken momentarily aback when the line of questioning shifted to the wreckage of his crashed aircraft, when the American test pilot referred to it as "very interesting, these Russian aeroplanes "¦, which never depart from the basic concept."

Deciding to play along with the line of questioning being taken by his American interrogator, Wing Commander Jafa reveals the latter then asked him whether he was following the developments in Russian aviation, and specifically referred to aircraft such as the MiG series, the Sukhois and, of course, their bombers, and in a suggestive sort of way, sought to understand from the Indian PoW whether he was aware or not of whether they were of all of the same make or of different concepts.

Wing Commander Jafa reveals that he did not know precisely what his American interrogator was looking for through his line of questioning, and replied, "I am only a flyer, the end user, so to say. You'd know better, of course, being a test pilot"¦"

Wing Commander Jafa states in his book that the American test pilot suggested that he (Jafa) and other Indian Air Force fighter pilots were aware that the Sukhois they were flying had been equipped with advanced electronics and pinpointed navigational aids to find targets by day or night, whereas the earlier versions used before the 1971 war did not include them, nor had the Russians developed them.

The American interrogator further suggested that some IAF aircraft had been accommodated with these advanced electronics and navigational aids and given to Jafa and other Indian pilots to operate and "to enable you to find targets "¦" in Pakistan.

Wing Commander Jafa suggests in his book that the Americans were monitoring the war in real time, but were "even more bothered about the accurate night bombings by the Indian pilots than were the Pakistanis."

He says that despite telling his American interrogator that he was not aware of any such development, the latter asked, "Then how come your pilots were finding the targets so accurately by night? Not a single failure."

He suggests that the American test pilot was not daft and adds that he (Jafa) was aware that the Americans could and would have taken all shot down aircraft apart and examined all the bits and pieces "to determine just one piece of equipment that could solve the mystery, and added that the interrogator suggested that Russian provided the Indian pilots with "some kind of beam guidance system" which the Americans were not aware of.

Wing Commander Jafa says he remonstrated with his American interrogator that the simple fact was that the Indian Air Force pilots were trained to be accurate flyers and to use simple gadgets like a compass, a speedometer and a wrist watch to unerringly go wherever they had to go, and pointedly asked the latter what he was actually after.

The American said that he was engaging in a bit of chit-chat among professionals, among fighter pilots, and walked out of his cell with a shrug.

Wing Commander Jafa says that thereafter they were consigned to their cells, got no answers to their questions from the prison guards, and nor were police corporals or their chief available, and he surmised that the American test pilot-cum interrogator was going around extracting information that he could during his meetings with every Indian prisoner individually to possibly complete "some jigsaw puzzle of the American intelligence somewhere"¦"

He concludes that the superpowers played their own games and were nobody's friends, and the poorer and less powerful nations more often than not succumbed to their blandishments easily, and did all their dirty work.

He says that the war between India and Pakistan in 1971 could have been prevented had the superpowers – the United States and the Soviet Union – desired so.

Americans interrogated Indian PoWs in Pakistani jails in 1971, reveals former IAF officer | idrw.org
 

Dovah

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It was Chuck Yeager right? There's a thread on DFI about that I think.
 

The Messiah

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This is nothing new, they even threatened to nuke us.
 

Aravind Sanjeev

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Imagine a world without superpowers.
By the way, this is not new. But fortunately people don't know about it much.
 

Khagesh

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Here's how the Americans use third world countries and also shows how kala angrez still spin their master's voice. Pakistan allowed itself to be used while India did not.

US promised India help if China attacked during 1971 Indo-Pak war - The Times of India

US promised India help if China attacked during 1971 Indo-Pak war
Josy Joseph, TNN | Dec 14, 2011, 01.03AM IST

Despite its intense animosity towards India during the 1971 war, the US promised New Delhi "all out" support in case China carried out any unprovoked attack on India.

NEW DELHI: Despite its intense animosity towards India during the 1971 war, the US promised New Delhi "all out" support in case China carried out any unprovoked attack on India, recently declassified documents reveal 40 years after the historic war that created Bangladesh.

The revelations add fresh twist to the narrative of the Indo-Pak war of 1971. Based on a set of freshly declassified documents of the ministry of external affairs, TOI had in early November reported that the US hostility towards India during the 1971 war was far beyond what was publicly known. And that the US had probably also prepared a few Marine battalions for operations against the Indian military.

Communications of the Indian embassy in Washington and of the government in New Delhi show that US offered "all out" help if China were to enter the Indo-Pak standoff to favour its all-weather friend.


After a meeting with Henry Kissinger, then adviser to President Richard Nixon, on August 25, 1971, Indian ambassador to the US L K Jha reported to New Delhi, "He said that in a 1962 type of situation, US will not hesitate to give all out help to India against China, and there is no change of position on this." Kissinger was referring to the military conflict between India and China in 1962 in which India was humiliated.

A few weeks before this meeting, during a visit to New Delhi, Kissinger told then defence minister Jagjivan Ram, "I might tell you that we would take a very grave view of any Chinese move against India."

Ambassador Jha had spent three hours with Kissinger in San Clemente White House, the vacation home of Nixon, on August 25, as tension mounted in South Asia. They discussed details of issues that could crop up in an upcoming meeting between then PM Indira Gandhi and Nixon.

But "in this one (letter to foreign secretary T N Kaul), I am dealing with one specific point relating to the US attitude in the event of China joining on the side of Pakistan in a conflict with us", the ambassador wrote. Discussions with Kissinger on possible Chinese aggression were prompted by queries from New Delhi, the letter shows. New Delhi was worried that China could open a second front against India, even as it fought Pakistan. Such a collaboration between China and Pakistan still remains a worry for the Indian security establishment.

"Then I asked that in order to be quite clear and free from any ambiguity or doubt, I would welcome a fuller formulation from him of the US position in case we are involved in any kind of a conflict with China." In response, Kissinger offered "all out" help in case of a 1962 type situation. Then he went on to discuss other possible scenarios.

"If it was a 1965 type of Pakistani attack, then even without Chinese involvement, US would take the toughest measures against Pakistan, and if China came to its help, it would not hesitate to help us with arms, though not with men," Jha wrote. The situation Kissinger referred was an unprovoked Pakistani aggression.

"However, the chances were that if the present situation escalates into a conflict, it would be very hard to tell who is to blame. Thus, if India sent two divisions of irregulars into East Bengal and Pakistanis sent four such divisions into Kashmir, it would not be a situation in which the US could possibly help even if China threw its weight on the side of Pakistan," Kissinger told Jha, according to the ambassador's letter.

This letter from the Indian ambassador was seen by the foreign minister, the secretary to the prime minister and most other senior officials.
The guy is bloody, threatening us with 4 Paki divisions while acting as the go to guy the good cop with the chinese as his bad cop. :rofl:
 

pmaitra

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What nonsense from Josy Joseph.

The US encouraged PRC to attack India. It was the USSR that threatened PRC to stay out.

And in 1962? Only Kennedy was in favour of supplying arms to India, which never arrived. Kennedy's Defense Secretary was against helping India and the Congress was at best ambiguous. It was explicitly stated that many senior officials in US gave more importance to Pakistan than India. Bottom line is, we never got was we wanted in 1962.

Agreed. US position in 1971 was the same as 1962. They will send out signal but real help, they will not deliver.

Looks like there is a desperate attempt at re-inventing history.
 
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What nonsense from Josy Joseph.

The US encouraged PRC to attack India. It was the USSR that threatened PRC to stay out.

And in 1962? Only Kennedy was in favour of supplying arms to India, which never arrived. Kennedy's Defense Secretary was against helping India and the Congress was at best ambiguous. It was explicitly stated that many senior officials in US gave more importance to Pakistan than India. Bottom line is, we never got was we wanted in 1962.

Agreed. US position in 1971 was the same as 1962. They will send out signal but real help, they will not deliver.

Looks like there is a desperate attempt at re-inventing history.
Kennedy had planes ready for drops in india but Nehru refused fearing an escalation.
How much of this is true is not known??
 

pmaitra

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Kennedy has planes ready to drops in india but Nehru refused fearing an escalation.
How much of this is true is not known??
LF, Kennedy has been at loggerheads with many people within the Administration. Some of these people were even out of control of the US Congress. Don't know what it was then, but today, a big chuck of Pentagon's budget is beyond Congressional audit.

Kennedy was also at logger-heads with the CIA over Cuba. Wikipedia says that Kennedy gave consent to the invasion of Cuba, but there are alternative theories that the Cuban invasion happened without Kennedy's knowledge, after which Kennedy fired the CIA Director Allen Dulles. Kennedy did not live long.

Chapter V. The Kennedy-CIA Divergence Over Cuba
Did JFK sign his death warrant by firing CIA chief?

The point I am trying to make is, Kennedy might have been in favour of helping India, but that the help never came (token arms supplies, that too after NEFA was cut off, do not count) indicates that Kennedy had little control over what the US as a military power was about to do.
 

pmaitra

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Some claim that USA was expecting India's assistance in Tibet against china ?
That is where the different paths may have started?


JPRI Occasional Paper No. 48
There is truth to that statement. Under Nehru, India adopted a pacifist path. We should have focused on securing our borders. We had many challenges. Why we did secure much of J&K, Hyderabad State, Junagarh, we failed to see the threat after PLA inavded Tibet. At that time, the US was interested in using India against Tibet, but India made only half hearted efforts. We should have secured Aksai Chin then, but we lost it soon after in the early 50s. No, we did not lose it in 1962. 1962 was only a confirmation of a fait acompli.
 

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Khagesh

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Actually some also claim that the Tibetans were betrayed by the Americans for the Chinese.

You see when the Soviets and Chinese fell out just after the Great Leap Wherever, the Soviets in 1960 had withdrawn all help for the Chinese nuclear establishment. By that time Soviets had only give some equipment (as in very few) for a (or one) Gaseous Diffusion Plant which was during that time a promising method of enrichment.

The timeline for the Chinese resolve to get a People's Nuclear Bomb that would kill everybody comprador bourgeoisie in the capitalists countries and wayward socialists of USSR too. Thus the peoples republic would be brought about immediately after this war by the unity of the remaining people.

Just after this comes the Jupiter missile in Turkey. Then the Soviet reaction in Cuba in 62.

In 62 comes the Chinese 'teach a lesson' war against India. Also the offer of help by the great president of USA. But India being dumb refuses it. Helps that there is Nehru in the gaddi who can be expected to drive blindfolded. So for some reason (!!!???) the ultimate secular, ultimate modernist, ultimate sahib somehow does not feel confident of relying on his own erstwhile mates (masters !!??).

In 1963 the boundary dispute (Sino-Soviet) had come into the open when China explicitly raised the issue of territory lost through "unequal treaties" with tsarist Russia. After unsuccessful border consultations in 1964, Moscow began the process of a military buildup along the border with China and in Mongolia, which continued into the 1970s.

The Gaseous diffusion plant (Lanzhou) started in Late 63 only and yet the first uranium based test came in Oct 64. Less than an year later. Sounds cool yeh. Chinese are greater than tallest mountains and deeper than seas. By the time China staged the October 1964 test it had an on-going gas centrifuge program for enriching uranium, although till 2014 nobody knows how much of uranium came from here for the Chic 1.

Some years later the Chinese got their TN in one. Something that was not done by any other power. Except as some claim by India in Shakti 2 :p.

Some decades later the US watched (approvingly!?) as the Chinese gave some bomb and enriched uranium to Pakis for the true Islamic Bomb that would protect all of Ummah and bring about the unity of all Ummah.

Some decades after that the Pakis give the bomb to the Saudis as the Chinese watch (approvingly!?).

Tibetans do not figure in the story right?

Exactly.

Now wanna know how much of the U235 is missing from US. And can you figure out why it is the US and its cohorts that want the accounting for every uranium atom ever refined. Why? Why? Why? What do they fear?
 
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Khagesh

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apple

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Actually some also claim that the Tibetans were betrayed by the Americans for the Chinese.
Congratulations on some top class trolling :clap: :clap:

The US helping the Chinese develop nuclear weapons starting in 1960... Too stupid to even be responded to
 

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