Turkish defense industry news updates

[Okabe Rintarou]

-engine: prototypes and the first few squadrons will use F110 engines until national engine is developed.

Please tell us more about the indigenous fighter jet engine development efforts in Turkey. What kind of technology has been developed and where the current thrust is.

 

[UnderFingy]

@rodeo
1. Last I heard, Turkey was looking for partners for their TF-X program. And Pakistan wanted to join in (?). Any update on that?
2. Do you think the timeline for TF-X is achievable?

Fair warning: You may not like what you read about TF-X here.

Adding to this, how do you see the current economic slump and future political changes in the country affecting the program?

 

[rodeo]

@rodeo
1. Last I heard, Turkey was looking for partners for their TF-X program. And Pakistan wanted to join in (?). Any update on that?
2. Do you think the timeline for TF-X is achievable?

Fair warning: You may not like what you read about TF-X here.

1. Turkey is not currently looking for partners for the program. That might be true in the future but not as of now.
2. It's a very ambitious project but if I see HÜRJET(Turkish equivalent of Tejas) flying by the end of next year, it will be a huge confidence booster for the project for me(Hürjet prototype is being built right now.) But I have confidence in TAI. And BAE systems is overlooking the project is giving more credibility to the program. So, let's just say I'm optimistic for now.

 

[rodeo]

Please tell us more about the indigenous fighter jet engine development efforts in Turkey. What kind of technology has been developed and where the current thrust is.

Turkey hasn't developed any fighter engines yet. But the company TEI(Turkish Engine Industries) is an established engine part manufacturers. TEI is the biggest supplier of the LEAP and GEnx engines in the world. These are the engines of the most flying passenger aircrafts like Boeing 737, Airbus A320, Boeing 747 etc.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/international-projects/genx-engine

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/international-projects/leap-engine

Other than this, TEI is producing GE T700 engine for T70(produced by TAI) helicopter in-house. All the critical components like the combustion-chamber or single-crystal blades are produced indigenously.
And for ingenious jet engines, TAI has a utility helicopter program called GÖKBEY. It's a 6tons civilian helicopter that will go into serial production next year. TEI has been developing a turboshaft engine called TS1400(1400shp) for it. The project has started in 2018. First prototype run in 2020. And by now they produced 6 prototypes and they're in 8th iteration. It will fly GÖKBEY in 2023. It's a very smooth running program. They're trying to certify the engine for civilian flight. Other than TS1400 TEI also have TS3000, TF6000(turbofan, 6000lb dry thrust) and TF15000(turbofan, 15000lb dry thrust) programs. TS3000 prototype is expected next year but I cannot comment on other projects.
However, developing a 5th gen engine is a whole different game. And it's even more ambitious than TFX program. It's a 35000lb engine. Time will tell what will happen. According to the plan we should run the first prototype in 2026-2027.

More about capabilities, TEI has a very advanced additive manufacturing technology(),

She has blisk technology(manufacturing compressor blades and the rotor disk as one piece),

Single-crystal turbine blade manufactufing(https://turkeygazette.com/aircraft-turbine-blades-produced-by-tubitak-mam-in-single-crystal-form/).

Maybe this video will explain it better,


I will add, if more comes to my mind.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Turkey hasn't developed any fighter engines yet. But the company TEI(Turkish Engine Industries) is an established engine part manufacturers. TEI is the biggest supplier of the LEAP and GEnx engines in the world. These are the engines of the most flying passenger aircrafts like Boeing 737, Airbus A320, Boeing 747 etc.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/international-projects/genx-engine

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/international-projects/leap-engine

Other than this, TEI is producing GE T700 engine for T70(produced by TAI) helicopter in-house. All the critical components like the combustion-chamber or single-crystal blades are produced indigenously.
And for ingenious jet engines, TAI has a utility helicopter program called GÖKBEY. It's a 6tons civilian helicopter that will go into serial production next year. TEI has been developing a turboshaft engine called TS1400(1400shp) for it. The project has started in 2018. First prototype run in 2020. And by now they produced 6 prototypes and they're in 8th iteration. It will fly GÖKBEY in 2023. It's a very smooth running program. They're trying to certify the engine for civilian flight. Other than TS1400 TEI also have TS3000, TF6000(turbofan, 6000lb dry thrust) and TF15000(turbofan, 15000lb dry thrust) programs. TS3000 prototype is expected next year but I cannot comment on other projects. However, developing a 5th gen engine is a whole different level. And it's even more ambitious than TFX program. It's a 35000lb engine. Time will tell what will happen. According to the plan we should run the first prototype in 2026-2027.

More about capabilities, TEI has a very advanced additive manufacturing technology(),
She has blisk technology(manufacturing compressor blades and the rotor disk as one piece),
Single-crystal turbine blade manufactufing(https://turkeygazette.com/aircraft-turbine-blades-produced-by-tubitak-mam-in-single-crystal-form/).

Maybe this video will explain it better,


I will add, if more comes to my mind.

Thanks for the info.
Just few more questions:-

• How much of the Intellectual Property Rights with regards to blisks and single-crystal turbine blades are held by TEI?
• What about Thermal Barrier Coatings?
• Was GE T700 engine being produced by TEI provided under a Transfer of Technology contract? If so, details therein.
• What kind of budget does TS3000 engine program have?

 

[rodeo]

Thanks for the info.
Just few more questions:-

• How much of the Intellectual Property Rights with regards to blisks and single-crystal turbine blades are held by TEI?
• What about Thermal Barrier Coatings?
• Was GE T700 engine being produced by TEI provided under a Transfer of Technology contract? If so, details therein.
• What kind of budget does TS3000 engine program have?

- The blisk technology is developed by TEI, they have the IP. SCBs are a long running running project that developed by TÜBİTAK Research Center. So technically TEI is being supplied by the turbine blades. You can read more about it here ,https://www.aa.com.tr/en/science-te...urkeys-1st-national-helicopter-engine/2168015

- I don't have a knowledge about thermal barrier coatings. But according to the video I linked(the last video of my last post) Tübitak developed the technique also. I can do more research about it and get back to you soon.

- GE has 49% ownership of TEI. TEI has billions of dollars worth contract with GE. TEI develops manufacturing methods for the GE engines and gets huge contracts for the engines in return. As far as I know there is no transfer of technology between them. Frankly, I don't think any engine company will share their critical technologies with any other manufacturer. You have to develop it yourself.

- I don't know about the budget. The company is profitable and spends all of it on R&D. I don't think I ever saw any budget numbers about the engine projects. But it's much more cheap to develop them in Turkey than anywhere else in the World, imo.

BTW, TS3000(3000shp) is developed for TAI's multi-role heavy combat helicopter. It's an 11ton MTOW heli. You can read it about here,

MULTIROLE HEAVY COMBAT HELICOPTER - TUSAS

MULTIROLE HEAVY COMBAT HELICOPTER

www.tusas.com

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

- The blisk technology is developed by TEI, they have the IP. SCBs are a long running running project that developed by TÜBİTAK Research Center. So technically TEI is being supplied by the turbine blades. You can read more about it here ,https://www.aa.com.tr/en/science-te...urkeys-1st-national-helicopter-engine/2168015

- I don't have a knowledge about thermal barrier coatings. But according to the video I linked(the last video of my last post) Tübitak developed the technique also. I can do more research about it and get back to you soon.

- GE has 49% ownership of TEI. TEI has billions of dollars worth contract with GE. TEI develops manufacturing methods for the GE engines and gets huge contracts for the engines in return. As far as I know there is no transfer of technology between them. Frankly, I don't think any engine company will share their critical technologies with any other manufacturer. You have to develop it yourself.

- I don't know about the budget. The company is profitable and spends all of it on R&D. I don't think I ever saw any budget numbers about the engine projects. But it's much more cheap to develop them in Turkey than anywhere else in the World, imo.

BTW, TS3000(3000shp) is developed for TAI's multi-role heavy combat helicopter. It's an 11ton MTOW heli. You can read it about here,

MULTIROLE HEAVY COMBAT HELICOPTER - TUSAS

MULTIROLE HEAVY COMBAT HELICOPTER

www.tusas.com

I have been looking at the TEI's website for a few minutes, the one thing that has caught my eye is the level of integration TEI has with major Western Engine giants: Rolls Royce, Safran and especially GE. I wish Indian Private Sector giants like Kalyani could think about this kind of partnership with established engine manufacturers. TEI's manufacturing is top-notch.

However regarding parts that TEI supplies for foreign engines like the LEAP or GEnx, etc: It doesn't seem as though these parts, their materials or their processes were designed by TEI. It appears to be the case that Western Engine Giants provide TEI with the raw material as well as the process and gets them to manufacture certain engine parts. This arrangement is similar to how India's HAL makes AL-31, Turbomecca Shakti and other engines that were primarily designed by foreign manufacturers and their processes for assembly and manufacturing of components was provided by the foreign manufacturers to HAL. If this is the case, then TEI doesn't hold the IPR of these parts, such as the blisks it makes as part of the LEAP engine HPC.

Looking at turbofan engines TEI has developed itself, these appear to be mostly small turbofan engines, smaller than India's Manik Turbofan. The biggest project under development using own technology in TEI (as per their website) seems to be the TS1400 turboshaft engine. This is similar to the Indian HTSE-1200 turboshaft engine being developed by HAL. The fact that Turkey is using a particular kind of single-engine turbine blade and thermal barrier coating on the TS1400 means that that is the particular technology for which they hold IPR.

It appears to me that in TEI is like India's HAL while TUBİTAK-MAM is like India's DRDO-GTRE. So it would be great if you could provide me some links pointing out the work of TUBİTAK-MAM in this area. TEI appears to be more of a manufacturer than an R&D organization. I've visited the website of TUBİTAK-MAM, but can't really find much info. I hope you'll be able to find more on TUBİTAK-MAM's work.

 

[UnderFingy]

It appears to be the case that Western Engine Giants provide TEI with the raw material as well as the process and gets them to manufacture certain engine parts.

Does this mean they have the knowhow?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Does this mean they have the knowhow?

Depends on terms of the contract, but most likely, no. They can attempt to reverse engineer some of it, but most of it would require their own R&D effort from the ground up. This appears to be what they are doing starting from small turbofans and medium turboshafts for now, which isn't very different from what we are doing.

 

[rodeo]

However regarding parts that TEI supplies for foreign engines like the LEAP or GEnx, etc: It doesn't seem as though these parts, their materials or their processes were designed by TEI. It appears to be the case that Western Engine Giants provide TEI with the raw material as well as the process and gets them to manufacture certain engine parts. This arrangement is similar to how India's HAL makes AL-31, Turbomecca Shakti and other engines that were primarily designed by foreign manufacturers and their processes for assembly and manufacturing of components was provided by the foreign manufacturers to HAL. If this is the case, then TEI doesn't hold the IPR of these parts, such as the blisks it makes as part of the LEAP engine HPC.

You are right. These parts are not designed by TEI. TEI manufactures them. But TEI's relationship with GE is different. GE, after designing the engines, gives the blue prints of engine parts to TEI and asking TEI for designing manufacturing processes for these parts. I mind you, these parts are not the hot parts of the engine. TEI designs the processes with the stipulation that TEI will get the 70% of the production volume of these parts. So essentially saying, I will design the process but I'm the one who is producing it. What does GE gets? Cheap but quality and reliable engineering. She doesn't have to pay extra engineering hours for the US engineers. What does TEI gets? TEI gets billions of dollars worth of contracts. Obviously, this is not prevalent for the most of the engines GE produces but the ones TEI is participating in the manufacturing are like this. This is not the case for TEI's work for European manufacturers as far as I know.

As for the blisk technology, TEI developed it itself. After developing the technology TEI manufactures the parts according to technique and send to the OEM for certifying the technique and approving the QA. Again I'm not sure if TEI uses the technique just on the engines for GE or for all the compressor blades she produces.

Looking at turbofan engines TEI has developed itself, these appear to be mostly small turbofan engines, smaller than India's Manik Turbofan. The biggest project under development using own technology in TEI (as per their website) seems to be the TS1400 turboshaft engine. This is similar to the Indian HTSE-1200 turboshaft engine being developed by HAL. The fact that Turkey is using a particular kind of single-engine turbine blade and thermal barrier coating on the TS1400 means that that is the particular technology for which they hold IPR.

You are right, again. TEI was a big jet engine part supplier till few years ago. TS1400 is TEI's first attempt at designing a turbine engine(excluding the smaller ones). But having the infrastructure, the know-how and also producing T700 engine with almost all the critical parts in house gives me the confidence that TEI will succeed it. They're producing a prototype every few months and they're in the 8th design iteration of the engine, if I'm not mistaken. No engine is the same with the one before. It's maturing. The plan is to integrate it to GÖKBEY helicopter in 2023. And certify the engine by 2025(EASA). The helicopter is entering service next year. It has an interim engine(CTS800) till TS1400 is ready.

Can you direct me to some website about HTSE-1200. I'm very interested in knowing more about it but I can't find much to go. What's the latest update on the engine?

Tübitak is a research intuition in Turkey. I don't know the exact structure of the institution so I have to learn some more before writing an extensive piece. It is an organization that has a very wide scope. For instance TÜBİTAK-SAGE is responsible for developing Cruise missiles, AA missiles, precision guidance kits, ramjet engine research etc. But on the other hand, TÜBİTAK-MAM is focused more on material science, genetic engineering, biotech etc. I will provide you with more resources when I learn more about the works of the institute.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

You are right. These parts are not designed by TEI. TEI manufactures them. But TEI's relationship with GE is different. GE, after designing the engines, gives the blue prints of engine parts to TEI and asking TEI for designing manufacturing processes for these parts. I mind you, these parts are not the hot parts of the engine. TEI designs the processes with the stipulation that TEI will get the 70% of the production volume of these parts. So essentially saying, I will design the process but I'm the one who is producing it. What does GE gets? Cheap but quality and reliable engineering. She doesn't have to pay extra engineering hours for the US engineers. What does TEI gets? TEI gets billions of dollars worth of contracts. Obviously, this is not prevalent for the most of the engines GE produces but the ones TEI is participating in the manufacturing are like this. This is not the case for TEI's work for European manufacturers as far as I know.

As for the blisk technology, TEI developed it itself. After developing the technology TEI manufactures the parts according to technique and send to the OEM for certifying the technique and approving the QA. Again I'm not sure if TEI uses the technique just on the engines for GE or for all the compressor blades she produces.


You are right, again. TEI was a big jet engine part supplier till few years ago. TS1400 is TEI's first attempt at designing a turbine engine(excluding the smaller ones). But having the infrastructure, the know-how and also producing T700 engine with almost all the critical parts in house gives me the confidence that TEI will succeed it. They're producing a prototype every few months and they're in the 8th design iteration of the engine, if I'm not mistaken. No engine is the same with the one before. It's maturing. The plan is to integrate it to GÖKBEY helicopter in 2023. And certify the engine by 2025(EASA). The helicopter is entering service next year. It has an interim engine(CTS800) till TS1400 is ready.

Can you direct me to some website about HTSE-1200. I'm very interested in knowing more about it but I can't find much to go. What's the latest update on the engine?

Tübitak is a research intuition in Turkey. I don't know the exact structure of the institution so I have to learn some more before writing an extensive piece. It is an organization that has a very wide scope. For instance TÜBİTAK-SAGE is responsible for developing Cruise missiles, AA missiles, precision guidance kits, ramjet engine research etc. But on the other hand, TÜBİTAK-MAM is focused more on material science, genetic engineering, biotech etc. I will provide you with more resources when I learn more about the works of the institute.

Thanks for the info. So it appears that TEI has more than just a license production agreement with GE, since its also designing the process for achieving these parts. Having in-house blisk technology is impressive. Was this something TEI itself developed completely on its own or did TUBITAK assist it?

There is no particular site for HTSE-1200. You can read about it in HAL's annual report ( https://hal-india.co.in/Common/Uploads/Finance/AR 20-21.pdf ). Latest info was that the engine was entering low rate production where 5 more prototypes were to be built for further ground testing and subsequent flight testing. The engine has already undergone hundereds of hours of ground tests. There was a photo of it undergoing tests somewhere in the forum. Its in the same class as TS1400, same power. Also uses single-crystal blades, just like the TS1400.

Tubitak sounds similar to India's DRDO, with the wide scope of R&D it has.

 

[rodeo]

Thanks for the info. So it appears that TEI has more than just a license production agreement with GE, since its also designing the process for achieving these parts. Having in-house blisk technology is impressive. Was this something TEI itself developed completely on its own or did TUBITAK assist it?

There is no particular site for HTSE-1200. You can read about it in HAL's annual report ( https://hal-india.co.in/Common/Uploads/Finance/AR 20-21.pdf ). Latest info was that the engine was entering low rate production where 5 more prototypes were to be built for further ground testing and subsequent flight testing. The engine has already undergone hundereds of hours of ground tests. There was a photo of it undergoing tests somewhere in the forum. Its in the same class as TS1400, same power. Also uses single-crystal blades, just like the TS1400.

Tubitak sounds similar to India's DRDO, with the wide scope of R&D it has.

While looking for info about blisk technology I found very interesting reads in TEI's website. First,

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/activity-areas/parts-and-module-manufacturing/manufacturing-capabilities

Second one is describing the technologies developed by TEI and their relevance to the engine manufacturing.
Go to the website, from the top menu choose services and a collapsible menu will appear, there you'll see a section named technology development. Pick whichever you like and read. They are very interesting(for me at least).

 

[rodeo]

Are there any questions other then the engines(engine questions are also welcomed)?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

As for the blisk technology, TEI developed it itself.

The following link clearly states that TEI got the Blisk technology from GE under a Transfer of Technology agreement.

TEI HAS MANUFACTURED TURKEY’S FIRST INTEGRAL COMPRESSOR PALE AND DISC (BLISK) PIECE

Competing among the world’s leading manufacturers in aircraft engines, TEI h

www.defenceturkey.com

So it appears that TEI didn't develop this technology on its own. Regardless, point is TEI has Blisk technology, giving it a serious leg-up in jet engine technology, thereby taking them very close to their dream of designing a jet engine for a frontline combat aircraft.

Wonder why India is not being offered similar technology. Could really be game-changing. Seems like unlike Turkey, Indian government is simply not considering \jet engine technology a matter of national importance.

Are there any questions other then the engines(engine questions are also welcomed)?

How are the avionics going to be sourced?

 

[gutenmorgen]

The following link clearly states that TEI got the Blisk technology from GE under a Transfer of Technology agreement.

TEI HAS MANUFACTURED TURKEY’S FIRST INTEGRAL COMPRESSOR PALE AND DISC (BLISK) PIECE

Competing among the world’s leading manufacturers in aircraft engines, TEI h

www.defenceturkey.com

So it appears that TEI didn't develop this technology on its own. Regardless, point is TEI has Blisk technology, giving it a serious leg-up in jet engine technology, thereby taking them very close to their dream of designing a jet engine for a frontline combat aircraft.

Wonder why India is not being offered similar technology. Could really be game-changing. Seems like unlike Turkey, Indian government is simply not considering \jet engine technology a matter of national importance.


How are the avionics going to be sourced?

If I remember correctly, hasn't DRDO already made LTPR blisks for STFE?

 

[Lonewolf]

1. Turkey is not currently looking for partners for the program. That might be true in the future but not as of now.
2. It's a very ambitious project but if I see HÜRJET(Turkish equivalent of Tejas) flying by the end of next year, it will be a huge confidence booster for the project for me(Hürjet prototype is being built right now.) But I have confidence in TAI. And BAE systems is overlooking the project is giving more credibility to the program. So, let's just say I'm optimistic for now.

Isn't the variant flying next year is the trainer Variant ??

 

[Lonewolf]

If I remember correctly, hasn't DRDO already made LTPR blisks for STFE?

Well if you have good metallurgy , then blisk is okay otherwise is high maintenance intensive engine with low reliability it will be expensive as even little erosion will require changing of blisk

 

[Adrian Corvus]

Are there any questions other then the engines(engine questions are also welcomed)?

Can you show us a glimpse of the latest publicly available design of the tfx.
Also, can you give us more details on the stealth coating too...

 

[SavageKing456]

If I remember correctly, hasn't DRDO already made LTPR blisks for STFE?

Yes

Ps:they're not finished so don't think that it's of poor quality

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Yes

Ps:they're not finished so don't think that it's of poor quality

If I remember correctly, hasn't DRDO already made LTPR blisks for STFE?

Wow. I didn't even know Manik has Blisks. Seems like they made these by machining. Doesn't seem like we have Linear Friction Welding-based blisks yet. We need that for successors of Kaveri engine.

Meanwhile, it seems like the ToT from GE to TEI involved transfer of Linear Friction Welding based blisk tech.