Turkey: TAI TFX Fighter Program

SavageKing456

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Buddy, I am not talking about a moral high ground here. I am saying that we are a much larger power and a more prominent nation, both historically, militarily as well as economically. Despite this, we are unable to punch at our weight, let alone above it.
With the size of turkish military it gets quite good budget,yet it lags behind India in R&D of aerospace&defence(yes many aren't inducted but that isn't development problems it's bureaucratic problems)
Now compare the budget of India and Turkey(remove pension&all) and introspect how much funds go into actual development compared to Turkey,you would've an idea.


Bayraktar has several imported components but after several European members halted them, the Turks are making them in-house. One such supplier was the UK-based Andair company that refused to sell components to Turkey after finding out that they were used in the drones shot in Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. They have already prioritized and started developing the components in house as they have to honor their export contracts with more than 6 countries.
There is a difference between making them and already replaced,by that we're also "making" tapas which have us as OEM.

And the point was about fighter aircrafts not drones,both are different.
 

Maharaj samudragupt

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I am specifically talking about UAVs here. Please don't bring other things. This way, the debate can go into land systems as well. Would you like to go there? TAI-129 is a license-built version of the A-129 and this is something even new enthusiasts know it.

My point is, they are using whatever means they can muster to secure their industry production. We are not. If we are, it is so slow & troublesome that the net effect is nullified.
If uav is concernd , then Turks are light years ahead of us .
No heron harop reaper nonsense please .
Iam talking about indian uavs
 

Tshering22

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Pessimistic eh, lol.
Very pessimistic just like our tshering bhai is .
I am realistic. Saving face is precisely what hinders real progress because it prevents us from acknowledging out gaps. This concept does not work in real life; maybe in social gatherings with neighbours present at our homes.

What you call "pessimism" is called reality check here. No conflict comes to us knocking our doors. Despite several good generals warning our governments about China, we are today lagging behind in light tanks for mountain warfare. While PLA has deployed theirs in Occupied Tibet, we are playing the Game of Tenders. You know how tenders end up for large tactical platforms.

Would you call that pessimism, Maharaj ji?
 

Tshering22

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With the size of turkish military it gets quite good budget,yet it lags behind India in R&D of aerospace&defence(yes many aren't inducted but that isn't development problems it's bureaucratic problems)
Now compare the budget of India and Turkey(remove pension&all) and introspect how much funds go into actual development compared to Turkey,you would've an idea.



There is a difference between making them and already replaced,by that we're also "making" tapas which have us as OEM.

And the point was about fighter aircrafts not drones,both are different.
All the elements you have stated as problems are within the control of the government in India. None of these are extraneous. Several countries modernized their forces through downsizing manpower and increasing the mechanization component. Turkey itself did the same after the fall of USSR when the threat of a Soviet invasion died out.

Again, we just continue to hide behind our excuses rather than taking our problems head-on. Calling it bureaucracy does not end the problem. Whatever Turkey is doing, is working for them Whatever we are doing is certainly not working for us.
 

SavageKing456

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What you call "pessimism" is called reality check here. No conflict comes to us knocking our doors. Despite several good generals warning our governments about China, we are today lagging behind in light tanks for mountain warfare. While PLA has deployed theirs in Occupied Tibet, we are playing the Game of Tenders. You know how tenders end up for large tactical platforms
Say that to army,they earlier denied to support light tank program,it's failure of strategic planners not development failure.
 

Maharaj samudragupt

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I am realistic. Saving face is precisely what hinders real progress because it prevents us from acknowledging out gaps. This concept does not work in real life; maybe in social gatherings with neighbours present at our homes.

What you call "pessimism" is called reality check here. No conflict comes to us knocking our doors. Despite several good generals warning our governments about China, we are today lagging behind in light tanks for mountain warfare. While PLA has deployed theirs in Occupied Tibet, we are playing the Game of Tenders. You know how tenders end up for large tactical platforms.

Would you call that pessimism, Maharaj ji?
Did I say pessimism is a bad thing saar , it's not .
Pessimism many times shows us bigger picture and well indeed prepare for the worst.
There is a book called Wellington experience , if you read it then you won't feel very confident in indian army's officers mindset.
But since that book is written by some american , take it with a whole pit of salt.
Indian bureaucracy wants their cut , military top brass wants their cut .
Infact the mechanism to stop corruption ensures that more corruption happens.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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I vividly remember several Indian members mocking Turkey's ambitions to become a drone-based powerhouse a few years ago. And then they all ended up with eggs on their face. While the DRDO cannot even deliver a Rustom-2, with the only achievement being a change in its name to Tapas UCAV, Turks have not only developed and inducted 1 UCAV but several variants and even tested them successfully in wars and CT operations.

Coming back to the Islamic fighter jet, they can be sure of the disappointment they face when seeing empy skies in response on the Indian side. The AMCA won't be anywhere in IAF at least till 2045-50. The projected time is 2032 which is exactly 10 years from now.

If you think ADA and DRDO are going to deliver that on time, I don't think you are ready for a serious discussion here.
While I agree many members had eggs on their faces reg drones, fighter jets are different ball game altogether. They don't even have an prototype of Hurjet, supposedly equivalent to Tejas yet. It was supposed to fly this year. But not even assembled yet. Their TFX will drag on for a long time. There is no way they are having first flight in 2026. Even if they do for pride, induction will be decades away.

I know many Indian members here "stupidly" compare how their drones fare with upcoming Ghatak, but ours right now is only on paper and they have stuff flying. Some are acting like Chinese here.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Does not matter. Remember how we initially built Tejas. The important stuff is they have their own software running on the drones. Probably their own mission computer. Drones require a lot of automation and they have excelled. And while we are with best software base and yet we are yet to master drone controller nor the design yet. Credit where it is due.
 

SavageKing456

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Okay,let me clear it.
Don't even bring the development of uavs as our failure in defence industry.
First of all,we get such a low funding when compared to the size of our military
Second,our priorities were not drones development,given our borders and we did not fund it properly,it was due to unfair distribution of funds,we have to develop aircraft carriers,nuclear submarines,BMs,CMs,A2AMs&aircrafts,tanks and literally everything.
That's not the case with turkey,they enjoy good budget w.r.t their military size and most develop small arms, then too they're behind us in key areas such as space militarisation,hypersonic,radar,missles,aircrafts,EW,Navigation&Shipbuilding etc.
 
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fire starter

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Does not matter. Remember how we initially built Tejas. The important stuff is they have their own software running on the drones. Probably their own mission computer. Drones require a lot of automation and they have excelled. And while we are with best software base and yet we are yet to master drone controller nor the design yet. Credit where it is due.
Dude we developed such intelligent mission computer way back in 2013.
 

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Honey

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I never said that but I said India is more cornered than Turkey....... Which is factual and in fact India is cornered currently... Just look at the geopolitics in the region..

From the South we have Sri Lanka (Chinese bases) From the North we have Pakistan and Central Asia. To the north east we have China and Nepal both enemies. Than we have Bangladesh to the east and also an enemy. plus beyond Bangladesh we have Myanmar another enemy.. Technically India exists currently as it stands in a world where everyone surrendering it is not friendly except Bhutan that is what it truly means to be cornered
😀😀😀😀🍆🍆🍆💦💦💦💦 To much .... Bro stop ...
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Dude we developed such intelligent mission computer way back in 2013.
We already have our own mission computer back in 2000s for our Tejas and Sukhois. I am not disputing that. The Turks don't have an equivalent of what we have reg fighter avionics.

We are talking wrt drones. We still might have one. But they are unmatured and not deployed .
 

rodeo

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Hello
I'm from Turkey. If you've been following Turkey's defense sector, you'd know Turkey is developing a fifth-gen fighter too. I find AMCA interesting because it's similar and the timelines of the project is close to ours and I'm trying to learn more about it. If you'll allow me to give a quick info about Turkish TFX,

-It's a multi-role, all-weather, stealth fighter jet developed by TAI and BAE Systems as subcontractor.
-It has a max take off weight of 27.215kg
-length: 21m, wingspan: 14m, height: 6m
-engine: prototypes and the first few squadrons will use F110 engines until national engine is developed.
-timelines:
2023 - roll-out from hangar
2025 - first flight
2028/2029 - first deliveries

If you have questions, please ask. I'm here to learn. It may take a bit time for me to answer, because I might need to do some reading about the questions but nevertheless that's the goal.
(This is a copy of my post in AMCA thread)
 

UnderFingy

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@rodeo
1. Last I heard, Turkey was looking for partners for their TF-X program. And Pakistan wanted to join in (?). Any update on that?
2. Do you think the timeline for TF-X is achievable?

Fair warning: You may not like what you read about TF-X here.
 

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