Turkey shot down Russian Su 24

[pmaitra]

What i think is, NATO was always divided.
I mean, the greeks and other balkans hate turkey and vice versa. And in general europeans don't like each other.
Only reason it appears united is because everyone is actually scared of uncle sam more the Russia.

I think the Europeans are doing what every country does. They went under NATO so that they could focus on their economic well-being while US was shouldering the defence budget. The US happily shouldered the defence budget as it allowed it vassals. Empires cost money.

Turkey is an unnatural member of NATO. Nothing Atlantic about it, and certainly nothing European about it. It is a medieval state with a modern face. It offered the US a missile base against the USSR. That was when it was an asset. Today, it has become a liability, especially after the Paris attacks and the refugee crisis. Sultan Erdogan needs to know what the US does with allies it deems no longer useful.

 

[Razor]

I think the Europeans are doing what every country does. They went under NATO so that they could focus on their economic well-being while US was shouldering the defence budget. The US happily shouldered the defence budget as it allowed it vassals. Empires cost money.

Turkey is an unnatural member of NATO. Nothing Atlantic about it, and certainly nothing European about it. It is a medieval state with a modern face. It offered the US a missile base against the USSR. That was when it was an asset. Today, it has become a liability, especially after the Paris attacks and the refugee crisis. Sultan Erdogan needs to know what the US does with allies it deems no longer useful.

I don't think they (NATO) care about Atlantic or medieval or European. They care about Bosporus and Tsargrad and Russian power projection capabilities?

 

[pmaitra]

@Razor,

Check out the comments in this WSJ article: http://www.wsj.com/articles/russian...tions-with-turkey-nato-are-damaged-1448439816

 

[pmaitra]

I don't think they (NATO) care about Atlantic or medieval or European. They care about Bosporus and Tsargrad and Russian power projection capabilities?

Yes, you are right. That is the point - controlling the Eurasian armpit.

 

[pmaitra]

Russian FM backs closing Syria-Turkey border

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has backed French President Francois Hollande’s proposal to close the Syrian-Turkish border, it has been reported.

“Going back to the news conference of Presidents of France and the United States Francois Hollande and Barack Obama in Washington, I noticed that the French president suggested taking steps to close the Turkish-Syrian border to stop both the flow of militants and terrorist financing,” the Russian minister said, according to Russian news agency TASS.

“We would be ready to seriously consider the steps necessary for this.

“Many say that, by closing this border, we will effectively curb the terrorist threat in Syria,” Lavrov added.

Source: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russia-turkey-crisis-live-updates-6895976

 

[Razor]

@Razor,

Check out the comments in this WSJ article: http://www.wsj.com/articles/russian...tions-with-turkey-nato-are-damaged-1448439816

They're asking me to subscribe.

 

[pmaitra]

They're asking me to subscribe.

WSJ is bankers' mouthpiece, and its perceived connections to Israel does not inspire a lot of confidence.

 

[pmaitra]

@Razor, "Turki Insani Convoy" or "Turki Jungi Convoy?"

 

[Razor]

@Razor, "Turki Insani Convoy" or "Turki Jungi Convoy?"

More like turki aatankwadi convoy

 

[pmaitra]

@Razor, going back to the possibility that the US might have egged on Sultan Erdogan to shoot down the Russian jet, how likely do you think it is, assuming this is true, that the US egged on Erdogan so that he would do something stupid and would give NATO a reason to drop Turkey?

We know the US egged Saddam Hussein on, and then he invaded Kuwait.

 

[Razor]

@Razor, going back to the possibility that the US might have egged on Sultan Erdogan to shoot down the Russian jet, how likely do you think it is, assuming this is true, that the US egged on Erdogan so that he would do something stupid and would give NATO a reason to drop Turkey?

We know the US egged Saddam Hussein on, and then he invaded Kuwait.

I think there is a credible chance; tukey will not move without US blessings, not when facing Russia.

Of course US approval would be of an indirect non-official nature.

At least this is what I think.

Anyway even Lavrov seems to wonder out loud about US role in this:

“Some members of the coalition, including those providing their combat planes for strikes against Iraq and Syria have confided to us the planes involved were of US manufacture and the Americans normally request US permission for such operations”
.
.
.

As far as I understand, our plane was downed by a US-made F-16. It remains to be seen whether the US requirement is applicable to Turkey, and if it is, I would like to know if Turkey had asked the United States for permission to send its planes on a combat mission and to shoot down a plane, albeit probably an identified one, over Syrian territory.

http://russia-insider.com/en/sergej-lavrov-wants-know-if-turkey-asked-us-permission-shoot/ri11455

 

[Razor]

Meanwhile the survivor in the Su-24 shooting, Captain Konstantin Murakhtin says:
1. They never violated Turkish Airspace
2. They did not receive any warning, neither by radio nor by visual means.
3. They did not even know they were under attack, until it was too late to take even evasive measures. hmm

And he adds.

I can't wait until I get the all-clear from the medics, so that I can step back into the ranks. I'm going to ask our command to keep me on this base — I have a debt to repay, for my commander.

Whether US was involved or not, this shooting has nothing to do with turkish airspace violation and everything to do with western/turkish plans for syria.

 

[pmaitra]

Whether US was involved or not, this shooting has nothing to do with turkish airspace violation and everything to do with western/turkish plans for syria.

What could those plans be? What can one hope to gain by doing this?

 

[Razor]

What could those plans be? What can one hope to gain by doing this?

I can only guess.
Maybe:
1. Trying to incite a russian response. You know what's going to happen when there is a russian response right? Every newspaper will have something like: "Putin killed my son", "Russian agression, Russian aggression", "Putin wants to conquer the world", "Putin=Hitler" and so on. And then use it as a pretext to have a more direct NATO involvement ? Use that to carve out a region, say bordering turkey, as a kind of buffer zone? Something like North korea, south korea?
2. Create negative response from Russian public to the war.
3. Disrupt business deals between russia and turkey, others etc.
4. Divert russia's attention to turkmen regions. Use up russia's resources for the syria war so that russia will find it difficult to allot resources for other things within its own neighbourhood etc.

I'm sorry I can only guess wildly.

 

[pmaitra]

More Tweets:

 

[pmaitra]

Some more Twitter reactions:






The last Tweet, if true, means Russia is evacuating all Russian citizens from Turkey.

 

[pmaitra]

So, Erdogan is now bombing the Kurds. Interesting.

 

[tharikiran]

They will continue their CAP missions same like yesterday

The Turkmen in the mountains are getting pounded. Double time.Where are the F-16's.

 

[tharikiran]

As we all had thought earlier, Russia has Turkey by the balls...
Russia Reportedly to Send Around a Dozen Fighter Jets to Syria

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20151126/1030771869/russia-syria-fighters.html#ixzz3saHg1usr
http://sputniknews.com/military/20151126/1030771869/russia-syria-fighters.html

 

[pmaitra]

Current air defence from S-300 Fort on Moskva, and expected and defence from S-400.


Accuracy of these diagrams is doubtful.