TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[Anikastha]

Su-30 has upgrade deal has been hanging since 2010 because of unavailability of  And after this corona hit, no chance for next 5-7 years, we won't even have money to buy MMRCA!
IAF is apparently planning to retire atleast 50 older Su-30 post 2035, may be replaced by ORCA as bomb-truck for CAS or interdiction. Deep upgrade required may cost as much as whole new flankers, so they decided to get a cheaper to operate, easier to maintain, more available, less fuel-guzzling jet.
A twin engined larger version of MWF is significantly more capable, on the fields of either payload & range (like Tejas Mark1 compared to older F404 powered Rafale), or by pure thrust (Jf-17 vs Mig-29).

But now that you've dismissed the whole operational doctrine of IAF & IN as baseless, that leaves nothing more to be said... No point fantasising on improbable scenarios.

mmrca is turning out to be costly for iaf...they better move on scrap mmrca for desi deals...i m being optimistic after yesterdays pm speech on buy Indian...

 

[vishnugupt]

Su-30 has upgrade deal has been hanging since 2010 because of unavailability of  (after this corona hit, no chance for next 5-7 years). We don't even have money to buy MMRCA!
IAF is apparently planning to retire atleast 50 older Su-30 post 2035, may be replaced by ORCA as bomb-truck for CAS or interdiction. Deep upgrade required may cost as much as whole new flankers, so they decided to get a cheaper to operate, easier to maintain, more available, less fuel-guzzling jet.
A twin engined larger version of MWF is significantly more capable, on the fields of either payload & range, or by pure thrust... Like Mig-29 to Jf-17.

But now that you've dismissed the whole operational doctrine of IAF & IN as well as laws of physics, that leaves nothing more to be said... No point fantasising of improbable scenarios.

no offence friend but you are contradicting yourself in a same statement
1) Today Corona so no money but also in 2010 we didn't have money. But reality money was always there even today but now we have prioritise our requirements.
2) No money for MMRCA also but in fact till Tejas we had imported all types when even we actually didn't have money
3)Deep upgrade require more money as much as new Aircraft ! How?? Check any aircraft development history you will get answer
4) ORCA or Bomb truck, IAF never asked for ORCA it meant to IN so you are Changing IAF operation doctrine here
5) compare gripin or MWF with Mig 29
6) Fantasising ORCA or Bomb truck is different from developing one its not that easy just put one more engine and lets go. ORCA will eat up lot of ADA resources and money ( which you most worry about ) and what you will achieve a aircraft nobody want ( No firm commitment by IN. IAF even have not utter a word )
7 ) Operation doctrine: CDS Vipin Rawat just yesterday told its definition

 

[vishnugupt]

its about cost buddy....after corona govt has many things to do....many sectors to invest money...expect military budget cut next year...apart from major deals like s400 ..rafale...nothing extra will b on our things to buy list....all plans will b pushed back at least 2 yrs ..if worse 5 yrs...

Then you just confirming my stand. ORCA is just money and time wasting. stay there where we are today. induct Tejas develop MWF and AMCA because much of money has already invested

 

[Anikastha]

Then you just confirming my stand. ORCA is just money and time wasting. stay there where we are today. induct Tejas develop MWF and AMCA because much of money has already invested

who said orca is time waste...

 

[vishnugupt]

who said orca is time waste...

IAF, IN and CDS by not committing upon it. Even if you apply your own point of argument, A single engine MWF operational cost will be much lesser then double engine ORCA.

 

[Anikastha]

IAF, IN and CDS by not committing upon it. Even if you apply your own point of argument, A single engine MWF operational cost will be much lesser then double engine ORCA.

cost of single engine fighter will always be less than twin engine fighter bro...

 

[Bleh]

mmrca is turning out to be costly for iaf...they better move on scrap mmrca for desi deals...i m being optimistic after yesterdays pm speech on buy Indian...

I hope so too... As of now we dont have a desi alternative though. Tejas FOC order could be expanded if they divert MMRCA.2 fund to fast track MWF & add the desi avionic upgrade pack to Su-30, but chances are low.

no offence friend but you are contradicting yourself in a same statement
1) Today Corona so no money but also in 2010 we didn't have money. But reality money was always there even today but now we have prioritise our requirements.
2) No money for MMRCA also but in fact till Tejas we had imported all types when even we actually didn't have money
3)Deep upgrade require more money as much as new Aircraft ! How?? Check any aircraft development history you will get answer
4) ORCA or Bomb truck, IAF never asked for ORCA it meant to IN so you are Changing IAF operation doctrine here
5) compare gripin or MWF with Mig 29
6) Fantasising ORCA or Bomb truck is different from developing one its not that easy just put one more engine and lets go. ORCA will eat up lot of ADA resources and money ( which you most worry about ) and what you will achieve a aircraft nobody want ( No firm commitment by IN. IAF even have not utter a word )
7 ) Operation doctrine: CDS Vipin Rawat just yesterday told its definition

1. Yeah? Ok if you say so. Let's wait & see.
2. Do. We'll see if your Super Sukhoi & any MMRCA follow-on happens.
3. Check out the Mirage-2000I & Mig-29UPG deals to compare prices.
4. Yes true, ORCA is a 50:50 for IAF but simply repeated HVT.
5. No. Do yourself. Use my examples, similar wing-style jets of same engine.
6. Partially right. It's likely to incorporate AMCA fuselage design.
7. Vague point.

At the end, you just gotta wait & see, as we can't really counter each other. We're both doing wishful thinking to some degree. Better to base that on info tidbits coming from reliable sources, because what we think should happen, is irrelevant.

 

[vishnugupt]

I hope so too... As of now we dont have a desi alternative though. Tejas FOC order could be expanded if they divert MMRCA.2 fund to fast track MWF & add the desi avionic upgrade pack to Su-30, but chances are low.



1. Yeah? Ok if you say so. Let's wait & see.
2. Do. We'll see if your Super Sukhoi & any MMRCA follow-on happens.
3. Check out the Mirage-2000I & Mig-29UPG deals to compare prices.
4. Yes true, ORCA is a 50:50 for IAF but simply repeated HVT.
5. No. Do yourself. Use my examples, similar wing-style jets of same engine.
6. Partially right. It's likely to incorporate AMCA fuselage design.
7. Vague point.

At the end, you just gotta wait & see, as we can't really counter each other. We're both doing wishful thinking to some degree. Better to base that on info tidbits coming from reliable sources, because what we think should happen, is irrelevant.

Please I'm not against you either, I'm just telling as my point of view
And please you can't compare communist era mig 29 development cost with today's mirage upgrades.
Let's see how things unfold.

 

[Bleh]

I got the idea to use the AMCA & MWF to generate an ORCA concept few as days ago thanks to @Tridev123 @aditya10r.

So I decided to try out the concept & it turned out to be a surprisingly seamless merge!
Although, their respective size is not accurately known, but I resized them by matching the F414 engine common in both. It required literally not a single change in size or length of change to any part.
The wings are getting placed further apart due to wider fulelage & since curve modifications were done. View attachment 47732
Comparative GIF.
View attachment 47733

Also tagging @porky_kicker @Chinmoy @Kuntal @patriots @Rahul Singh

I'm working on another one right now. Will upload shortly.

The second one is not as attractive, as the original AMCA photo is from a (pretty bad) photo of AeroIndia poster. But I had no other option as the angle matched with the MWF render I have.

No size adjustments after initial resizing to match the F414 engine.

 

[Bleh]

The best finished work yet!..
Presenting the originals alongside for comparison. I managed to match all the edges & curves (marked in both) while MWF's spine fits beautifully into the "buttcrack" between AMCA's engines.

Left the wing-merge crude to see where one ends, other begins.

@Kuntal haven't heard from you in a while. I trust you do plan on creating an ORCA render at some point future. In which case, do look into the prospect of this concept of AMCA-MWF hybrid... Now that this possibility has occured to me, it seems more & more likely as I will as practical.
Because like you, ADA too have readymade twin-engine fuselage available for simply superimposing, instead of staring from scratch with that crude elongated Tejas Mark1 with canards (which idea didn't work in the 1st place due to excessive drag in original Mark2).

 

[Bleh]

 

[fire starter]

That's why TEDBF is necessary .

Why ADA proposed new design for Naval AMCA.

In 2015, the Indian Navy decided it wants a twin-engine platform for its deck-based operations, the current single-engine configuration of the N-LCA Mk1 which has been used as a Tech demonstrator for the NLCA Mk-2 program was dropped after Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) had completed design works on the Mk2 with improved payload and fuel carrying capacity and with 3 tonnes more Take off weight than the Mk1. Change of heart from single-engine to twin-engine configuration for indigenous carrier-based fighter jet meant that Navy asked ADA to carry out feasibility studies to work on developing a Carrier-based fighter jet from the proposed 5th Generation AMCA program for the Indian Air Force (IAF), as told ADA did submit its reports to the Naval Head Quarters with a significant warning for converting current AMCA design into a Naval fighter jet.

For the first time, people who know the contents of the feasibility report have confirmed to idrw.org that ADA had recommended Navy not to go for the conversion of AMCA design into Carrier-based Naval fighter after feasibility studies found too many shortfalls and compromised operational requirements and technical challenges which will not be able to meet requirements what Navy was looking for in 5th Generation fighter jet. Undercarriage, fuselage, and changing landing gear design could have required considerable weight gain for the airframe thus limiting weapons and internal weapons carrying capability. ADA also had red-flagged technical challenges to deliver an aircraft without compromising its stealth characters.

The second set of technical challenges pointed put that even an Upgraded AESA UTTAM Radar could require highly improved sea search mode with new hardware and software requirement and new software for auto take-off and landing mode for aircraft carrier operations.

ADA recommended a new design with higher Take off weight instead of converting AMCA design into Naval AMCA. A new design will be a clean slate 5th generation design optimized for Naval requirements. Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) which is a 4.5++ Generation fighter jet design for carrier-based fighter jet has been proposed to the Indian Navy due to technical challenges to develop a 5th Generation carrier-based fighter jet. Navy has accepted the initial proposal and the Navy and Defence Ministry will decide about it while IAF also has been offered a variant of the TEDBF known as Omni role combat Aircraft (ORCA) but IAF is yet to decide on that.

Persistent Problems with carrier-based F-35C which was based on the F-35A also suggests that using single airframe design for the multi-service requirement to save production cost also doesn’t work that way and ADA mentioned this and problems it faced to convert LCA design into Naval LCA program as one of the major reasons to avoid the same mistake with Naval AMCA program and suggested developing a new clean slate stealth fighter based on technology developed for AMCA in 2030-40 and suggested TEDBF program to gain technology experience in development of carrier-based jets.

 

[Karthi]

A twin Engine Tejas was proposed in 2008 as MCA . If we developed it we don't need to go for MMRCA 1 &2 . ORCA will be good add to IAF and most importantly we can compete with Chinese Aircrafts in International market , IAF can make improvements and add capabilities to MWF and ORCA as what they wish . Our Allies and friends like Vietnam , Gulf countries , Latin Americans , and Africans , they will get an option other than Chinese , we can counter their influence , we will get influence on other countries and also can add our friends strength to counter China .


Both Malaysia and Egypt didn't opted Tejas cos it have Israeli components , at least now we need to understand the importance of indigenous Weapons.

Rafale Su 57 everything will be there , and most of these countries now Willing to give us their best cos they know if they didn't give we can develop one .

Look at now we are in a bad situation , we need to counter Chinese , So we can choose our Mk1A, only because we got an indigenous option , otherwise we need to beg for others.

ORCA will be a blessing for us. At least we should consider Chinese they copied many things and build many variants and now they are exporting it

 

[Bleh]

@Kuntal haven't heard from you in a while. I trust you do plan on creating an ORCA render at some point future. In which case, do look into the prospect of this concept of AMCA-MWF hybrid... Now that this possibility has occured to me, it seems more & more likely as I will as practical.
Because like you, ADA too have readymade twin-engine fuselage available for simply superimposing, instead of staring from scratch with that crude elongated Tejas Mark1 with canards (which idea didn't work in the 1st place due to excessive drag in original Mark2).

Top-view (based on this, stealthier canard shape at right)

Side-view (with source images & tandem NGAR-AAMs).

Front-view (MWF from https://www.ada.gov.in/ada/lca-air-force-mark-2.html)

 

[Bleh]

A twin Engine Tejas was proposed in 2008 as MCA .

Whoa! This? Are you sure its real?!.. I thought that one was just a fanart.

Because before 2010 we had nowhere near the capability to build any MCA comparable to its peers around the world. Even Tejas tech development picked pace after 2014 only.

 

[Karthi]

Whoa! This? Are you sure its real?!.. I thought that one was just a fanart. View attachment 48212
Because before 2010 we had nowhere near the capability to build any MCA comparable to its peers around the world. Even Tejas tech development picked pace after 2014 only.

The basic tech development started before 2014, it started pace because of Parrikar Ji , if not what would be the situation now ?

 

[Bleh]

From HVT's profile banner.

 

[Karthi]

Air launched HSTDV on ORCA is my dream . Imagine 3 HSTDV & 3 Brahmos NG in ORCA

ORCA as a Heavy weight fighter to replace MKI is my another dream, and yes dream is a dream but IAF still didn't responded.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

MKI will be replaced from 2040 onwards by AMCA Mk2/Mk3.

 

[Bleh]

MKI will be replaced from 2040 onwards by AMCA Mk2/Mk3.

Nobody knows what will happen 20 years later... Look at Tejas replaceing Mig-21 & Mig-27 both.

We may soon buy new Mig-29s while IAF just declared that Jaguars will not be retired unto 2035, well after Mark2. So, ORCA & AMCA may both replace a number of old Mig-29, Mirage-2000, Jaguars & Su-30.